Con fused - BA LCY - EDI
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Con fused - BA LCY - EDI
BA (City Flyer) have announced that due to the loss of of an A/c due to a landing incident at LCY that they will now be permanently reducing the EDI LCY service with immediate effect.
I am confused as I understood that BA were to be dropping the 146 s from the autum to be replaced with Embraer 190. If this is the case, then surely the announcement of a permanent reduction in service based due to the damaged A/C is a bit of a lame excuse?
Apparently the damaged A/C is to be written off by insurers or the repairs cannot be undertaken during the remainder of the lease. If this is the case then surely BA have an insured loss that is recoverable and the reduction in service will now only impact on customers.
For the record. Air France operate a popular service on this route - which may explain BA's desire to remove unused capacity!
I am confused as I understood that BA were to be dropping the 146 s from the autum to be replaced with Embraer 190. If this is the case, then surely the announcement of a permanent reduction in service based due to the damaged A/C is a bit of a lame excuse?
Apparently the damaged A/C is to be written off by insurers or the repairs cannot be undertaken during the remainder of the lease. If this is the case then surely BA have an insured loss that is recoverable and the reduction in service will now only impact on customers.
For the record. Air France operate a popular service on this route - which may explain BA's desire to remove unused capacity!
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Air France..
Not only do Air France operate on the same route, they operate a far superior service! I have taken this routed 3 time with BA and every time there has been a problem, particularly with the return leg back to LCY. On one notable trip we landed at LCY at 22.29, a clear minute before it closed, following a 2 1/2 hour delay, so annoying. AF however have never let me down, better service, better food, pleasant crew and on time!
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I suspect that profitability of the service at current levels is marginal - given the reliance on financial service industry pax - and the costs of leasing another plane - and keeping it flying through the summer - exceed those of making a bunch of people redundant and cutting the service. And that BA don't see pax numbers turning up any time soon.
As a regular pax on this route I don't like to see reductions in frequency (nor people losing their jobs) but I don't think there's anything more sinsister going on here than a straightforward business decision (other than a bit of spin to the media and BA are hardly alone amongst airlines in that).
As for comparing the BA service with Cityjet/Air France, well in my experience the - onboard - service with BA has always been very good but the flights are subject to delays and cancellations much more than, say, on the EDI-LGW route.
I'm flying CJ from LCY on Friday so let's see how they compare.
13Alpha
As a regular pax on this route I don't like to see reductions in frequency (nor people losing their jobs) but I don't think there's anything more sinsister going on here than a straightforward business decision (other than a bit of spin to the media and BA are hardly alone amongst airlines in that).
As for comparing the BA service with Cityjet/Air France, well in my experience the - onboard - service with BA has always been very good but the flights are subject to delays and cancellations much more than, say, on the EDI-LGW route.
I'm flying CJ from LCY on Friday so let's see how they compare.
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I think maybe that was my point. Honesty and BA are just uneasy bedfellows. Why not simply give the whole truth than some half baked C&B story.
I have shared your experience re reliability on th BA LCY route and agree that the LGW service tends to operare from EDI more or less on time ( less so I have notices since they strated the terminal extn at EDI. Outbound it is frequently delayed particularly in the evening.
EZY on the same route is a bit better and leaving form S. terminal is quicker to get to than BA if you are coming by train.
I have sampled the CJ service only a few times but it was V. reliable and seemed a bit slicker that BA Cityflyer. The last LCY BA flight I was on they had no coffee and a pretty cruddy Breakfast.3/10.
I have shared your experience re reliability on th BA LCY route and agree that the LGW service tends to operare from EDI more or less on time ( less so I have notices since they strated the terminal extn at EDI. Outbound it is frequently delayed particularly in the evening.
EZY on the same route is a bit better and leaving form S. terminal is quicker to get to than BA if you are coming by train.
I have sampled the CJ service only a few times but it was V. reliable and seemed a bit slicker that BA Cityflyer. The last LCY BA flight I was on they had no coffee and a pretty cruddy Breakfast.3/10.
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Nothing will affect market confidence more than if it looks like the management are trying to hide something.
Sad fact is that everything BA do and say makes it look like they have something to hide. Maybe things are worse that their results would suggest? I thought they had done pretty well to limit the loss.
The city generally respond well management that acts decisively in a crisis. Taking the LCY announcement as a case in point this is reactive to circumstance outwith management control - nor proactive, taking account of prevailing market conditions. I think had it been the latter BA would have been seen acting to stave off future losses. Using the excuse of a damaged aircraft makes it look very lame.
I will speculate now that Willie Walsh will be gone by the end of September which will be good news for shareholders. BUY.
Sad fact is that everything BA do and say makes it look like they have something to hide. Maybe things are worse that their results would suggest? I thought they had done pretty well to limit the loss.
The city generally respond well management that acts decisively in a crisis. Taking the LCY announcement as a case in point this is reactive to circumstance outwith management control - nor proactive, taking account of prevailing market conditions. I think had it been the latter BA would have been seen acting to stave off future losses. Using the excuse of a damaged aircraft makes it look very lame.
I will speculate now that Willie Walsh will be gone by the end of September which will be good news for shareholders. BUY.
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Munnyspinner I should explain is the Scottish Banker ( those men of fine judgement ) who having been denied access to a flight he couldn't make as he was late,, he now spends his days posting how he hates BA. Work must be quiet on the banking sector......
A beatiful sense of lack of irony here...
ARE YOU SERIOUSLY GIVING FINANCIAL ADVICE??????
Just chill out and be more careful to make sure you arrive in a timely fashion and you will not spend so much time blaming the staff, the BAA and then launching a tirade at the carrier at every opportunity.
A beatiful sense of lack of irony here...
Sad fact is that everything BA do and say makes it look like they have something to hide.
I will speculate now that Willie Walsh will be gone by the end of September which will be good news for shareholders. BUY.
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Just chill out and be more careful to make sure you arrive in a timely fashion and you will not spend so much time blaming the staff, the BAA and then launching a tirade at the carrier at every opportunity.
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If you want Financial advice you'll need to pay for that. And, despite your ill informed opinion I am not a Banker.
Personal opinion, as you have expressed, is surely what this and other forums is about.
Yes, I have grave concerns about the performance and future of BA, perhaps heightened by a petty bureaucratic F88K up earlier this year. Since then I have earned a silver diamond card with BMI on domestic and have just returned form a very pleasant trip with VS to California. I have switched allegiance away from BA and have discovered that I am not alone in my views about BA. However, birds of a feather and all that probably means that the extra VX premium Pax are all disaffected T5 late arrivals - they're not!
SOE - take a long hard look at your airline. It's not nearly as good as you think!
But, yes, I think the share price is now sufficiently low that it can probably only go one way over the next few months.
Oh, and by the way, I found this little jem from the past - I don't think much has changed at the world's favorite airline since then - do you.
Skipness One echo echo echo
Personal opinion, as you have expressed, is surely what this and other forums is about.
Yes, I have grave concerns about the performance and future of BA, perhaps heightened by a petty bureaucratic F88K up earlier this year. Since then I have earned a silver diamond card with BMI on domestic and have just returned form a very pleasant trip with VS to California. I have switched allegiance away from BA and have discovered that I am not alone in my views about BA. However, birds of a feather and all that probably means that the extra VX premium Pax are all disaffected T5 late arrivals - they're not!
SOE - take a long hard look at your airline. It's not nearly as good as you think!
But, yes, I think the share price is now sufficiently low that it can probably only go one way over the next few months.
Oh, and by the way, I found this little jem from the past - I don't think much has changed at the world's favorite airline since then - do you.
BA overmanaged. Fact.
Why not let them go? No really I want to know.
Is it illegal? If you are overmanned in management by 100% then fire half of them.
This seems to be the consensus, so can someone honestly tell me why BA are having a hard job in doing it? They seem to have no qualms about firing other staff.
Are they delibaratley trying to destroy what so many people care about?
This might sound callous but the poor sod who fell from the car park, the IT director ought to have been worried. BA is an airline, not a software house. Their IT department is a joke, poorly run and overpaid. The web site is overly complex for what it should be doing, direct selling at competitive prices! IT should be outsourced to someone like CSC, and no I don't work for them but they do our IT better than we ever did.(BAE.)
An airline is to serve the public, not a bunch of career minded self obsessed pointless paper shufflers.
end of rant.
Tel me why they can't be fired? Someone?
Why not let them go? No really I want to know.
Is it illegal? If you are overmanned in management by 100% then fire half of them.
This seems to be the consensus, so can someone honestly tell me why BA are having a hard job in doing it? They seem to have no qualms about firing other staff.
Are they delibaratley trying to destroy what so many people care about?
This might sound callous but the poor sod who fell from the car park, the IT director ought to have been worried. BA is an airline, not a software house. Their IT department is a joke, poorly run and overpaid. The web site is overly complex for what it should be doing, direct selling at competitive prices! IT should be outsourced to someone like CSC, and no I don't work for them but they do our IT better than we ever did.(BAE.)
An airline is to serve the public, not a bunch of career minded self obsessed pointless paper shufflers.
end of rant.
Tel me why they can't be fired? Someone?
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 27th May 2009 at 22:37.
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If you want Financial advice you'll need to pay for that.
Someone who ( apparently ) used to work in aviation ought to know better than :
I used to occasionally use my airside pass to shop before a trip - leave my purchases landside then go back though security for duty. It was handy where electonic items were on special offer and I didn't want to cart them from pillar to post on a trip or rely on BAA's super efficient buy and collect service - don't know if this is still available either. Can't say whether I was breaking any rules or not and was never challenged - I once had the same conversation with the same security operative at LHR about 40 mins apart -
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...ance-rant.html
Found it!
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 27th May 2009 at 16:20.
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Munneyspinner - I was fortunate enough to partake in a tour of T5 hosted by BA a couple of weeks ago - very informative.
I actually posed the question regarding your initial upset at having not met conformance to one of the terminal duty managers, and his response was along the lines of:
Punctuality is a huge focus now for BA, we have invested heavily in the terminal and its facilities. No matter if it is a gold card holder who arrives late, or a "normal" passenger - both are now treated the same. They will not be allowed on the flight. Why should we risk upsetting the other hundreds of passengers who have all managed to arrive in time for their flight by risking a delay by allowing a late passenger?
Our punctuality figures are now regularly above 95%, and this is something that we have not seen at BA in years.
That attitude seems quite a reasonable one to me - I know I would not be happy at being delayed because a passenger couldnt get to the aircraft on time, and I doubt if you would be too.
I actually posed the question regarding your initial upset at having not met conformance to one of the terminal duty managers, and his response was along the lines of:
Punctuality is a huge focus now for BA, we have invested heavily in the terminal and its facilities. No matter if it is a gold card holder who arrives late, or a "normal" passenger - both are now treated the same. They will not be allowed on the flight. Why should we risk upsetting the other hundreds of passengers who have all managed to arrive in time for their flight by risking a delay by allowing a late passenger?
Our punctuality figures are now regularly above 95%, and this is something that we have not seen at BA in years.
That attitude seems quite a reasonable one to me - I know I would not be happy at being delayed because a passenger couldnt get to the aircraft on time, and I doubt if you would be too.
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Our punctuality figures are now regularly above 95%,
) of aircraft arrivals and departures then this is logged and available on the CAA website. Looking at the data he is completely wrong, not even close in fact, so he is obviously talking about punctuality of something else. Maybe the checkin desks closing on time?
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For once I have to side with BA, and even agree with Skipness One Echo 
. Yes this story was spun to the media, but all airlines' PR people spin - look at Virgin's recent results which turn out not to have been quite as good as sold at first, or Ryanair's blame game every time they ground planes in the winter - "it was the airport's fault for raising landing charges". Yeah right.
As I said before, the LCY-EDI service relies heavily on financial services pax. The state of that industry means there are fewer of those pax flying* -> less demand for Cityflyer's flights. Who's to say that the services weren't going to be cut anyway and the damage to the plane just forced the decision on BA ?
As for BA's punctuality, on the LGW - EDI route which is the one I use most often, it has significantly improved in recent months, in fact I can't remember the last flight on that route which was late, and I tend to favour those flights over LCY ones now. I guess LGW being practically empty now does help. Can't speak for LHR flights though since I avoid that place whenever humanly possible.
As for S1E's comment
talk about the pot calling the kettle black ! Your constant anti-Scottish rhetoric and stereotyping on PPRUNE make for a poor read and detracts from what else you have to say - how about giving it a rest ?
13Alpha
* - my experience as a supplier to one of the main corporate customers of BA Cityflyer suggests that it's about time fewer of their people were flying between Edinburgh and London. Just how many people do you need at a meeting ??? Haven't you heard of email, teleconferencing or videoconferencing ????
. Yes this story was spun to the media, but all airlines' PR people spin - look at Virgin's recent results which turn out not to have been quite as good as sold at first, or Ryanair's blame game every time they ground planes in the winter - "it was the airport's fault for raising landing charges". Yeah right.As I said before, the LCY-EDI service relies heavily on financial services pax. The state of that industry means there are fewer of those pax flying* -> less demand for Cityflyer's flights. Who's to say that the services weren't going to be cut anyway and the damage to the plane just forced the decision on BA ?
As for BA's punctuality, on the LGW - EDI route which is the one I use most often, it has significantly improved in recent months, in fact I can't remember the last flight on that route which was late, and I tend to favour those flights over LCY ones now. I guess LGW being practically empty now does help. Can't speak for LHR flights though since I avoid that place whenever humanly possible.
As for S1E's comment
I think you are getting personal which makes for a poor read.
13Alpha
* - my experience as a supplier to one of the main corporate customers of BA Cityflyer suggests that it's about time fewer of their people were flying between Edinburgh and London. Just how many people do you need at a meeting ??? Haven't you heard of email, teleconferencing or videoconferencing ????
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Your constant anti-Scottish rhetoric and stereotyping on PPRuNe make for a poor read and detracts from what else you have to say - how about giving it a rest ?
As for the rhetoric and stereotypes, I'm lost as to your point. Can't have been that bad / racist / offensive / inaccurate as the mods are generally quite good at ppruning. Anyhoo enough said.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 27th May 2009 at 17:59.
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S1e, and your point is?
Yes, was flight crew many years ago before drifting into the corporate world which, is why I was gobsmacked by the pettiness of the conformance thingy and yes - apparently at BA, 14 minutes late is actually on time! I missed the confomance threshold by a whisker and I think I have had more than my penny's worth following that debacle. I did resolve things amicably with BA and I have done what I said I would do- Avoid T5 and LHR generally -I am only one passenger and you cannot be suggesting that I am responsible for the downturn in BA's premium pax - gold card now in bin.
What I have done is try the alternatives. Different airlines, different airports and other means of travel. BA is allegedly the dominant UK carrier but all I am seeing is bad news, staff disaffection, pension deficits, failed mergers and takeovers, anti-competitive behaviour and provisons for fines - not a happy ship.
Some serious questions have to be asked - I am obviously now no fan of BA but, I used to be! In fact, as a gold card exec club member I was one of their many commercially important passengers. So why the change? - not as a restult of a F88k up at T5 but, my analysis of their overall business. This may have been prompted by the above event which I felt was evidence of a customer facing business actually missing the point.
Yes, if BA can deliver the Iberia/American tie up that may make a difference but to do the first they need to get pension pot sorted and to do that they need the staff and unions on board. How long will this actually continue to stumble along before someone realises that it ain't going to work?
Punctuality is hardly the issue today -whereas it may have been two years ago. And it's pretty easy to esnure an empty aircraft leaves on time or, in the case of BA, 14 minutes late!
Yes, was flight crew many years ago before drifting into the corporate world which, is why I was gobsmacked by the pettiness of the conformance thingy and yes - apparently at BA, 14 minutes late is actually on time! I missed the confomance threshold by a whisker and I think I have had more than my penny's worth following that debacle. I did resolve things amicably with BA and I have done what I said I would do- Avoid T5 and LHR generally -I am only one passenger and you cannot be suggesting that I am responsible for the downturn in BA's premium pax - gold card now in bin.
What I have done is try the alternatives. Different airlines, different airports and other means of travel. BA is allegedly the dominant UK carrier but all I am seeing is bad news, staff disaffection, pension deficits, failed mergers and takeovers, anti-competitive behaviour and provisons for fines - not a happy ship.
Some serious questions have to be asked - I am obviously now no fan of BA but, I used to be! In fact, as a gold card exec club member I was one of their many commercially important passengers. So why the change? - not as a restult of a F88k up at T5 but, my analysis of their overall business. This may have been prompted by the above event which I felt was evidence of a customer facing business actually missing the point.
Yes, if BA can deliver the Iberia/American tie up that may make a difference but to do the first they need to get pension pot sorted and to do that they need the staff and unions on board. How long will this actually continue to stumble along before someone realises that it ain't going to work?
Punctuality is hardly the issue today -whereas it may have been two years ago. And it's pretty easy to esnure an empty aircraft leaves on time or, in the case of BA, 14 minutes late!
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Grounded ,
I'll never get this point across to you but ,at T5 its double jeopardy.
If you don't make it through security ( into security) by a certain time you can't fly. And, if you do but, don't get to the gate, you can't fly.
My point, which I am now completely fed up making is that there is no opportunity to try to get to the gate even when you are a few minutes behind the conformance cut off. If BA can deny travel because you haven't made the gate that's OK and is industry standard. Failing to get through secuity by the witching hour and not making the gate cut off time are actually two different events. I know I can wayfind through any airport fairly quickly and have done so for many years, operating on tight schedules.
In response to BA I said - OK, I don't like your rules which I will now avoid. I can accept that and I'm sure they can too. Fact is I'm not the only premium passenger that is a bit fed up with BA. In a customer reliant business you need to keep most of the people happy most of the time.
I'll never get this point across to you but ,at T5 its double jeopardy.
If you don't make it through security ( into security) by a certain time you can't fly. And, if you do but, don't get to the gate, you can't fly.
My point, which I am now completely fed up making is that there is no opportunity to try to get to the gate even when you are a few minutes behind the conformance cut off. If BA can deny travel because you haven't made the gate that's OK and is industry standard. Failing to get through secuity by the witching hour and not making the gate cut off time are actually two different events. I know I can wayfind through any airport fairly quickly and have done so for many years, operating on tight schedules.
In response to BA I said - OK, I don't like your rules which I will now avoid. I can accept that and I'm sure they can too. Fact is I'm not the only premium passenger that is a bit fed up with BA. In a customer reliant business you need to keep most of the people happy most of the time.
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As for the rhetoric and stereotypes, I'm lost as to your point. Can't have been that bad / racist / offensive / inaccurate as the mods are generally quite good at ppruning.
It's just a trashy comment and using it to imply Munnyspinner lacked judgement because he is also, you presume, Scottish WAS offensive. You were making a negative judgement about him based on his nationality.
The fact that you're Scottish too is irrelevant.
But anyway, as you say, that's for the mods to decide.
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Implying that all Scottish bankers lack judgement was inaccurate. It's about as accurate as saying all English bankers lack judgement because of what Adam Applegarth did to Northern Rock, what James Crosby and Andy Hornby did to HBOS and what Steven Crawshaw did to Bradford and Bingley.
BA should just admit that The Suits from Shreddieburn don't get to fly up at the pointy end unless there is a strong business case anymore.
The madness will only be over when that snowflake is finally removed from the hideous bridge over the Glasgow Road. Make It Happen!
For the record, Shreddie is a lawyer by qualification. He decided that Chartered Accountancy was far more lucrative - how hard can it be to count beans?
G-RBSG - vanity registration gone mental - word on the street is that Shreddie wanted his own private road to the check-in desk! How sad that the papparazzi forced him to park the bird at Orly!
IT Consultants? They created Y2K! Yo, ho, ho! It cost a fortune to "enforce" compliance - nothing-at-all happened at 2000_01_01_00:00:01 .
I'll leave it to the Mods.
Last edited by ILoadMyself; 28th May 2009 at 00:22. Reason: Pedantry. Plus, my next post has started a new page.