Kids disembarked from easyJet flight
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Kids disembarked from easyJet flight
Pupils on trip to Venice forced to leave plane due to inadequate number of teachers - Telegraph
How many captains out there know what the legal ratio of adults to children should be? Was this a safety issue or just our nanny state (and airline industry) gone mad again?
How many captains out there know what the legal ratio of adults to children should be? Was this a safety issue or just our nanny state (and airline industry) gone mad again?
Last edited by Michael Birbeck; 11th Apr 2009 at 11:10.
That is crazy. It is a guideline, not a law. Anyway ,the recommendation is '10-12 students per aduit. None of Easyjet's business IMO. And officiously OTT.
Unless the youngsters were being rowdy and uncontrollable, and there is no comment suggesting that at all.
Congratulations Easyjet official, whoever you are, you just ruined some youngsters' happy expectations, for no justifiable reason whatever. There really are some folk for whom any authority is a dangerous thing.
Unless the youngsters were being rowdy and uncontrollable, and there is no comment suggesting that at all.
Congratulations Easyjet official, whoever you are, you just ruined some youngsters' happy expectations, for no justifiable reason whatever. There really are some folk for whom any authority is a dangerous thing.
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Another paper takes a slightly different tack, the teacher/pupil ration is stated (apparently) in the group booking conditions, if the Pax can't read and follow the T&C's who is at fault?
The airline for insisting it's T&C's are followed, or the school for not following them? Bearing in mind that another group had gone out earlier with more staff than were needed for the number of pupils so there was overall the correct number of staff, just not on the correct flights - again who's responsible for that?
Worth bearing in mind that the 1:10 ratio is a requirement within the schools system.
Perhaps then going by earlier posts it is OK for airlines to ignore the 1:50 rule for cabin crew
The airline for insisting it's T&C's are followed, or the school for not following them? Bearing in mind that another group had gone out earlier with more staff than were needed for the number of pupils so there was overall the correct number of staff, just not on the correct flights - again who's responsible for that?
Worth bearing in mind that the 1:10 ratio is a requirement within the schools system.
Perhaps then going by earlier posts it is OK for airlines to ignore the 1:50 rule for cabin crew
Biscuit74,
It is clearly stated in the easyJet terms and conditions:
easyJet.com - Carrier's Regulations
It is a condition of carriage, and the person or company booking the seats (in this case "The School Travel Service") are obliged to read the conditions, and acknowledge that they have read the conditions, when booking. So much so, they have even apologised and offered a refund:
Well done to the Captain for making sure the flight was in accordance with the regulations, thus keeping the insurance policy valid.
It is clearly stated in the easyJet terms and conditions:
easyJet.com - Carrier's Regulations
Groups of children
easyJet will accept children aged 13 years or under in large groups (i.e. 10 or more) on the condition that there is a minimum ratio of one accompanying adult per 10 children. In these instances an adult is considered to be anyone aged 16 years or above.
easyJet will accept children aged 13 years or under in large groups (i.e. 10 or more) on the condition that there is a minimum ratio of one accompanying adult per 10 children. In these instances an adult is considered to be anyone aged 16 years or above.
The School Travel Service, which organized the trip, also offered its apologies.
A spokesman said the company "looked into every possibility to transport the group but unfortunately the trip had to be postponed".
The company would provide a full refund and an alternative discounted trip later this year, the spokesman added.
A spokesman said the company "looked into every possibility to transport the group but unfortunately the trip had to be postponed".
The company would provide a full refund and an alternative discounted trip later this year, the spokesman added.
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Completely agree West lakes - the pax responsibility, the pax fault. The Head says "We are extremely experienced in running study trips both in this country and abroad. The care and security of our students is always paramount" One must ask then why did they choose to ignore the airlines conditions of carriage!?
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Bisquit 74:
There are rules and regulations regarding the number of ( unaccompanied ) children on board. They are there for VERY good reasons. Well done Easy Jet !
There are rules and regulations regarding the number of ( unaccompanied ) children on board. They are there for VERY good reasons. Well done Easy Jet !
biscuit74:
So, if you had been on that flight and those 28 children had decided to get unruly with only 2 teachers to try and control them, you would have been perfectly happy with the situation?
So, if you had been on that flight and those 28 children had decided to get unruly with only 2 teachers to try and control them, you would have been perfectly happy with the situation?
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Kid to teacher ratios
I wonder what the average kid to teacher ratio is in the average UK classroom? Certainly far higher that than 10 to 1. More of an education risk than a health and safety risk I suppose.
Also appreciate the insurance issue for the airline and sympathise with that. If this is such an issue from an insurance perspective then why were the kids allowed to embark in the first instance?
Also appreciate the insurance issue for the airline and sympathise with that. If this is such an issue from an insurance perspective then why were the kids allowed to embark in the first instance?
How many captains out there know what the legal ratio of adults to children should be?
What safety rules do you ignore, or can't be bothered learning?
If this is such an issue from an insurance perspective then why were the kids allowed to embark in the first instance?
Michael Birbeck,
Controlling a large group of children in a classroom is, may I suggest, an issue quite different to controlling a large group of children in an emergency evacuation of a burning aircraft.
And I too know the ratio, along with a load of other useful stuff I am meant to know about as a captain.
Controlling a large group of children in a classroom is, may I suggest, an issue quite different to controlling a large group of children in an emergency evacuation of a burning aircraft.
And I too know the ratio, along with a load of other useful stuff I am meant to know about as a captain.
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Outrageous biscut74. They were following their own rules clearly stated to passengers in the booking conditions! How dare you come here and castigate them publicly for it! YOU should be flogged! The least you could do is apologise for your insulting remarks.
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Kid to teacher ratios
Please credit me with the sense and intelligence to comprehend the difference between the risk associated with managing kids in the classroom as opposed to an aircraft.
As for the question as to what safety regulations I ignore, I will just ignore that impertinent question :-). Suffice it to say I believe that safety regulations should do just that, ensure safety and as such should be understood and obeyed.
The presumption that the children were "unruly" is mere supposition.
As for the question as to what safety regulations I ignore, I will just ignore that impertinent question :-). Suffice it to say I believe that safety regulations should do just that, ensure safety and as such should be understood and obeyed.
The presumption that the children were "unruly" is mere supposition.
None of Easyjet's business IMO. And officiously OTT.
Unless the youngsters were being rowdy and uncontrollable, and there is no comment suggesting that at all.
Unless the youngsters were being rowdy and uncontrollable, and there is no comment suggesting that at all.
No one is suggesting that the children where anything other than well behaved, however it is the purpose of those rules to avoid situations that could arise in flight - when they are very difficult to deal with, not to wait until the trouble is occurring in a locked and crowded aircraft, half an hour from an airport.
The School Travel Service, which organized the trip, also offered its apologies.
Originally Posted by biscuit74
It is a guideline, not a law.
Somerset County Councils's "guidelines" of 10-12 pupils per teacher are completely irrelevant. This is an airline, not something the council manages.
The headmaster blames this on all sorts of things, including that they were "forced" to split the group, and 34 travelled with 4 teachers the day before, and this was 28 with 2 teachers. That makes 62 pupils with 6 teachers, which would still breach the conditions of carriage if they all travelled together. Um ..... do you teach mathematics in your school, headmaster ? It's a good job that even for the most basic Private Pilot's Licence you have to be a sight better at mental arithmetic than this.
Last edited by WHBM; 11th Apr 2009 at 12:13. Reason: Typo
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It's worth noting that they were apparently short staffed anyway - 34 + 28 pupils, 4 + 2 teacher => 62 pupils, 6 teachers => even if they had all been on the one flight they'd have been outside the T&Cs.
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How things change.
Used to be flown back from Oranjemund (Namibia, then South West Africa) on a school flight back to Cape Town on chartered C130 from a dust strip. Tarpaulin separating the kids from the Captain and crew. No questions as to what the teacher children ratio was. Captain would glare bayfully at us from up front before start up and warn us all that given any trouble he would come out and "donner us" (beat us). There was never any trouble.
Enough material here for a number of law suits today I guess.
Still remember those flights like yesterday. The Captain was just that, a Captain not a quasi accountant/lawyer.
Enough material here for a number of law suits today I guess.
Still remember those flights like yesterday. The Captain was just that, a Captain not a quasi accountant/lawyer.
If those are their terms & conditions, fair enough they are entitled to enforce them. For that ignorance on my part I apologise.
However -
(a) How well advertised are these Ts & Cs. In my experience of bucket outfits like Easyjet, they keep a lot of this stuff in fairly small print, deliberately. Rather as with insurance policies, it allows them to be very selective when they wish to be.
(b) In my experience I'd rather have a bunch of kids - and there is absoutely no indication that they were unruly in any way - than a mob of the usual half cut, ignorant, and sadly all too often over weight and unfit types seen in the queues for too many of these flights. The people whose behaviour gives the UK a bad name all across Europe. Notionally adult, but.... It's why I won't travel on those carriers.
In the event of an emergency, again I'd rather have the kids all in /around early teens if I understand the news report, than the afore mentioned so called adults.
I've worked with many young folk who were much more useful, alert, obedient and interested than their so called elders and betters. It's a matter of how you treat them.
It is the case that this over zealous BS in Britain is producing a second generation which believes it doesn't have to think for itself, is not responible for anything and doesn't have to obey any rules it doesn't want to.
I suggest some of our posters here go to Europe and see how more civilised countries treat and train their children and also how they view practical Health & Safety.
A lot of the total lunacy forced on us in the UK by the Nanny mob is justly laughed at.
As for you Rainboe, I'd suggest you take a long deep breath and calm down. It's really not that important. Chill out.
However -
(a) How well advertised are these Ts & Cs. In my experience of bucket outfits like Easyjet, they keep a lot of this stuff in fairly small print, deliberately. Rather as with insurance policies, it allows them to be very selective when they wish to be.
(b) In my experience I'd rather have a bunch of kids - and there is absoutely no indication that they were unruly in any way - than a mob of the usual half cut, ignorant, and sadly all too often over weight and unfit types seen in the queues for too many of these flights. The people whose behaviour gives the UK a bad name all across Europe. Notionally adult, but.... It's why I won't travel on those carriers.
In the event of an emergency, again I'd rather have the kids all in /around early teens if I understand the news report, than the afore mentioned so called adults.
I've worked with many young folk who were much more useful, alert, obedient and interested than their so called elders and betters. It's a matter of how you treat them.
It is the case that this over zealous BS in Britain is producing a second generation which believes it doesn't have to think for itself, is not responible for anything and doesn't have to obey any rules it doesn't want to.
I suggest some of our posters here go to Europe and see how more civilised countries treat and train their children and also how they view practical Health & Safety.
A lot of the total lunacy forced on us in the UK by the Nanny mob is justly laughed at.
As for you Rainboe, I'd suggest you take a long deep breath and calm down. It's really not that important. Chill out.