Passengers win right to compensation when flights cancelled for technical faults
A few years ago when this compensatory regime first came into effect, there was a hope that the cowboy element would diminish. In particular, the possibility of waiting for a flight home and being told that because the plane had gone tech, pax would sometimes instead have to wait until there was space on future flights. On a twice weekly route in high season, this was sometimes 10 days away. If the original airline won't pay for a transfer to another carrier and you need to get home today - can you always afford to pay the full Y-class fare ?
When horror stories like this get into the press, the public become much more wary about booking. The compensatory regime achieves 2 things:
1) The cowboy element is tamed
2) Pax have the confidence to book a flight, knowing that the cost of compensation makes an airline act less like a cowboy. This should also increase ticket sales.
Want to fly off for the weekend, but need to be back home on Sunday evening for work on Monday ? Do you risk catching that flight on Sunday afternoon knowing the airline won't give a s**t if you're left stranded for a week ?
Now suppose we know the airline will get penalised for doing this - it's now much more likely the airline will make best efforts not to leave you stranded.
The compensatory regime has been essentially toothless. Airlines could get away with anything. John Smith doesn't have the technical knowledge to verify anything an airline may claim. By setting up a credible threat, pax have increased confidence to make a booking.
Compensation should occur very rarely - it's only there to ensure *all* airlines make best efforts when things go wrong - not to encourage the litigious and penalise unneccesarily.
When horror stories like this get into the press, the public become much more wary about booking. The compensatory regime achieves 2 things:
1) The cowboy element is tamed
2) Pax have the confidence to book a flight, knowing that the cost of compensation makes an airline act less like a cowboy. This should also increase ticket sales.
Want to fly off for the weekend, but need to be back home on Sunday evening for work on Monday ? Do you risk catching that flight on Sunday afternoon knowing the airline won't give a s**t if you're left stranded for a week ?
Now suppose we know the airline will get penalised for doing this - it's now much more likely the airline will make best efforts not to leave you stranded.
The compensatory regime has been essentially toothless. Airlines could get away with anything. John Smith doesn't have the technical knowledge to verify anything an airline may claim. By setting up a credible threat, pax have increased confidence to make a booking.
Compensation should occur very rarely - it's only there to ensure *all* airlines make best efforts when things go wrong - not to encourage the litigious and penalise unneccesarily.
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For all those pax that want more respect....stick your efing respect up your backside. That is quite clearly where your heads are....for you have no comprehension of how an airline works or strives to make money (many don't even do that).
You want to pay as little as possible yet expect the earth. There are way too many of you that live in cloud cuckoo land.
As for spare aircraft laying around to take you where you want to go at the drop of a hat............pi$$ off from this forum and join the National Express forum....they would obviously enjoy your input and high praise a lot more than us mere bus drivers.
This forum is overrun by idiots!
Glad I got that off my chest!!!
By the way I think the ruling is ridiculous, our airline strives for on time performance, I have complete faith in our engineering department and I fly the aircraft when it is safe and legal to do so, but to be told that we will now have to pay compensation for tech delays.....that sucks.
p.s. Happy Christmas to one and all (even the idiots)
You want to pay as little as possible yet expect the earth. There are way too many of you that live in cloud cuckoo land.
As for spare aircraft laying around to take you where you want to go at the drop of a hat............pi$$ off from this forum and join the National Express forum....they would obviously enjoy your input and high praise a lot more than us mere bus drivers.
This forum is overrun by idiots!
Glad I got that off my chest!!!
By the way I think the ruling is ridiculous, our airline strives for on time performance, I have complete faith in our engineering department and I fly the aircraft when it is safe and legal to do so, but to be told that we will now have to pay compensation for tech delays.....that sucks.
p.s. Happy Christmas to one and all (even the idiots)
Last edited by gatbusdriver; 24th Dec 2008 at 04:20.
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should it concern me?
as a pax should i be concened that this may "incentivise" airlines to take more risks in order to get a plane in the air?
or even deliberately falsify an "exceptional circumstance" in order not to pay up?
as a pax should i be concened that this may "incentivise" airlines to take more risks in order to get a plane in the air?
or even deliberately falsify an "exceptional circumstance" in order not to pay up?
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passengers do have some rights
gatbusdriver if it wasn,t for the pax you wouldn,t have a job and your attidude to people your meant to be supplying a service to frightens the hech out of me.I think your wasted as a pilot and you ought to be running your own airline(A pilot with a large ego like yours i,m surprised you can get in the cockpit)
phew glad I got that of my chest.
merry Christmas everyone
phew glad I got that of my chest.
merry Christmas everyone
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Easy fix.
If the flight is delayed due tech, don't cancel the flight!
Delay it until the aeroplane is fixed - whenever that may be - even if there is a rolling delay to get new crew etc, and it goes on all day and night.
Done.
Machines break - deal with it.
If the flight is delayed due tech, don't cancel the flight!
Delay it until the aeroplane is fixed - whenever that may be - even if there is a rolling delay to get new crew etc, and it goes on all day and night.
Done.
Machines break - deal with it.
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I'm sure that plenty of people who are moaning about how hard done by the airlines are on here would be quick to slag off the train companies if their train is cancelled and spout off about how they could improve the service. The truth is that unless you are actually involved in the running, it's impossible to fully understand the issues and problems that come up - you only see it from your limited viewpoint.
If a plane genuinely goes tech, then there's not much that can be done about it, and that's not the airlines fault if they have been doing everything to prevent it. The problem is that we're so used to being given shoddy service, and lied to about what's happening that we're deeply suspicious. If an airline wants to cancel a flight because for some reason it doesn't suit them to operate it, like light loading, then saying the plane has gone tech is a massive get out clause and that shouldn't be allowed. If you're on the way to something important, or even if you're not, you have a right to expect that you will get there when promised.
And as for cheap flights - if your service is going to be substantially worse than someone more expensive, you shouldn't be claiming you're offering the same thing. Make it clear that in the event of a problem happening, you're f....d
If a plane genuinely goes tech, then there's not much that can be done about it, and that's not the airlines fault if they have been doing everything to prevent it. The problem is that we're so used to being given shoddy service, and lied to about what's happening that we're deeply suspicious. If an airline wants to cancel a flight because for some reason it doesn't suit them to operate it, like light loading, then saying the plane has gone tech is a massive get out clause and that shouldn't be allowed. If you're on the way to something important, or even if you're not, you have a right to expect that you will get there when promised.
And as for cheap flights - if your service is going to be substantially worse than someone more expensive, you shouldn't be claiming you're offering the same thing. Make it clear that in the event of a problem happening, you're f....d
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Because all too often 'tec' is used as an excuse not to fly a lightly loaded sector (voice of embittered experience)!!!!
Penny wise, pound foolish, comes to mind.
I say...get these carriers off their mis-informed duffs and have 'em pay and pay....and pay compensation (big time) untill they get their act together.
Period!
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Aircraft can go tech, but everyone agrees there is a price to doing so. When the industry is as tightly run as it is now, with consistently high load factors, very little spare equipment and 'sporting' duty rosters, an aircraft going tech can be more than an inconvenience. When major airlines think that staffing enough agents to rebook all pax in less than six hours is reasonable service, we have a problem. Just as with rostering, without regulation the bulk of these companies will remove all the elasticity in the system at the expense of those who must endure it.
So by all means, cancel the flight if the aircraft needs unscheduled maintenance (although I must say I find it hard to contain my amusement when I show up at the airport to find my flight has been cancelled due to a tech issue known as a 'C check', but not to worry, the company's A340 to the same destination from another airport has plenty of room for all of us, and will be swinging by to pick us up). But don't skimp on the costs involved in the cancellation. If things are so competitive that treating pax or crew like human beings is 'outside the industry norm,' then bring in the regulations.
So what if tickets cost more?
So by all means, cancel the flight if the aircraft needs unscheduled maintenance (although I must say I find it hard to contain my amusement when I show up at the airport to find my flight has been cancelled due to a tech issue known as a 'C check', but not to worry, the company's A340 to the same destination from another airport has plenty of room for all of us, and will be swinging by to pick us up). But don't skimp on the costs involved in the cancellation. If things are so competitive that treating pax or crew like human beings is 'outside the industry norm,' then bring in the regulations.
So what if tickets cost more?
I always knew that things can and do go wrong, but do you really want a return to the days when people could not rely on scheduled flights, and should only fly if their itinerary had days of slack in it? If you promise that kind of reliability, you have to deliver, or not make the promise in the first place. About the only other business that could get away with that kind of fuzzy scheduling is medicine; if a patient is already ill and not working, what does he/she care if the surgeon pushes the op back a day?
Of course I understand that pilots deserve respect, but how do you earn it? These days pax are told that the planes fly themselves - I remember a pilot making a big deal over the Tannoy about a hands-off landing in an Airbus, back in 1990. (No, I am not saying that I believe that planes fly themselves!) With all the security in place now, the cockpit door is always closed, so the "pilot" could be a voice from the ground for all they know. The only time pax ever see pilots is through the window as they're boarding, feet up on the console, bolting down a dodgy sandwich in the few minutes between Ryanair segments.
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not to encourage the litigious and penalise unneccesarily.
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If you read the ruling in detail it came about due to Alitalia completely taking the micky (The aircraft in question had been out of service the day before and they had canned the flight at that time, but only telling the pax 5 mins before it was due to depart - about par for the course for that particular airline).
The detail of the ruling suggest that last minute tech issues are not covered for compensation so all seems perfectly reasonable to me.
And on the below from GBD, ok I'll bite
How about paying over £4K for a biz class flight to JNB cancelled 4 hours after it was scheduled to depart (fair enuff , heavy snow at departure).
But then being offered the next available seat over SIX WEEKS away and my luggage not returned for 25 days! (not unusual for that particular airline by all accounts). I think that gave me a very good comprehension how that airline 'worked' (a view that seems to be shared between the professionals and PAX about rather too many airlines from reading this forum)
Offer a service for which you charge, provide it or expect the flak.
The detail of the ruling suggest that last minute tech issues are not covered for compensation so all seems perfectly reasonable to me.
And on the below from GBD, ok I'll bite
For all those pax that want more respect....stick your efing respect up your backside. That is quite clearly where your heads are....for you have no comprehension of how an airline works or strives to make money (many don't even do that).
You want to pay as little as possible yet expect the earth. There are way too many of you that live in cloud cuckoo land.
You want to pay as little as possible yet expect the earth. There are way too many of you that live in cloud cuckoo land.
But then being offered the next available seat over SIX WEEKS away and my luggage not returned for 25 days! (not unusual for that particular airline by all accounts). I think that gave me a very good comprehension how that airline 'worked' (a view that seems to be shared between the professionals and PAX about rather too many airlines from reading this forum)
Offer a service for which you charge, provide it or expect the flak.
Last edited by manintheback; 24th Dec 2008 at 09:28.
GBD,
you give the impression that that pax should pay and not expect to get anywhere. There is some sort of contract implied, and to offer a flight several days later is impudence of the highest order, as well as treating pax with contumely.
Remember, ultimately, we pay your wages. You'd be really pleased if the garage promised to have your car serviced for 5pm, and then said, 'Sorry, we had technical difficulties. We have other people booked in for tomorrow and the day after and the earliest we can now fit you in is the end of next week - and you can't have a loan car either'.
As brit said, many of us never asked for super cheap fares. That's one reason I have only once used a European LoCo, and they happened to be so good I wonder if they'll last - that's FlyBaboo. So when we pay for travel on a major carrier, we do expect a reasonable degree of punctuality and reliability. If we aren't going to get it, then I can spend longer but with relatively high reliability (at least once I'm over the channel) by going by train - and that doesn't help the airline!
However, the few times I've had problems with aircraft going tech, it was all sorted quickly, and with cancellations, BA have been pretty good at finding hotels. Which is why I stick to BA....62 flights in 2008, excellent service on every one, although some of the check-in people abroad (who are servisair or whoever, and not BA staff) often leave something to be desired..
you give the impression that that pax should pay and not expect to get anywhere. There is some sort of contract implied, and to offer a flight several days later is impudence of the highest order, as well as treating pax with contumely.
Remember, ultimately, we pay your wages. You'd be really pleased if the garage promised to have your car serviced for 5pm, and then said, 'Sorry, we had technical difficulties. We have other people booked in for tomorrow and the day after and the earliest we can now fit you in is the end of next week - and you can't have a loan car either'.
As brit said, many of us never asked for super cheap fares. That's one reason I have only once used a European LoCo, and they happened to be so good I wonder if they'll last - that's FlyBaboo. So when we pay for travel on a major carrier, we do expect a reasonable degree of punctuality and reliability. If we aren't going to get it, then I can spend longer but with relatively high reliability (at least once I'm over the channel) by going by train - and that doesn't help the airline!
However, the few times I've had problems with aircraft going tech, it was all sorted quickly, and with cancellations, BA have been pretty good at finding hotels. Which is why I stick to BA....62 flights in 2008, excellent service on every one, although some of the check-in people abroad (who are servisair or whoever, and not BA staff) often leave something to be desired..
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gatbusdriver
I think your attitude to the paying customer demonstrates why there is a need for such legislation.
When airlines fob customers off with meaningless excuses then it is time for the courts to rule in the customers favour.
An example:
Week 1 Sunday. My flight is cancelled due to a 'technical problem'
Week 2 Sunday. Same flight is cancelled due to a 'technical problem'
Week 4 Sunday. Same flight is cancelled due to a 'technical problem'.
The fact that all the pax will easily fit onto the next flight 2 hours later with plenty of room is presumably irrelevant.
The fact that the airline is using its aircraft on a more lucrative charter is presumably irrelevant.
And I am not talking about a low cost airline/fare.
I think your attitude to the paying customer demonstrates why there is a need for such legislation.
When airlines fob customers off with meaningless excuses then it is time for the courts to rule in the customers favour.
An example:
Week 1 Sunday. My flight is cancelled due to a 'technical problem'
Week 2 Sunday. Same flight is cancelled due to a 'technical problem'
Week 4 Sunday. Same flight is cancelled due to a 'technical problem'.
The fact that all the pax will easily fit onto the next flight 2 hours later with plenty of room is presumably irrelevant.
The fact that the airline is using its aircraft on a more lucrative charter is presumably irrelevant.
And I am not talking about a low cost airline/fare.
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Let me assure you I give pax the respect they deserve!
Let me also assure you that the majority of UK pilots are aware that this is a service industry and as such do their best to provide a service. I think some of you are getting confused between these two words, respect and service.
Even the LoCo guys will try to provide that service out of professionalism, but often have their hands tied by operations. MOL would be the first to say publicly that you get what you pay for. He is aware that most of the great British public are driven by cost.
For those plonkers that start sprouting the 'We pay your wages' cr@p, please desist. It is a touch annoying. Do you sit in a restaurant and after having a bad meal/service sprout 'I pay your wages'......I thought not. I also doubt you would say that on a train or in Tescos etc....
Let me also assure you that the majority of UK pilots are aware that this is a service industry and as such do their best to provide a service. I think some of you are getting confused between these two words, respect and service.
Even the LoCo guys will try to provide that service out of professionalism, but often have their hands tied by operations. MOL would be the first to say publicly that you get what you pay for. He is aware that most of the great British public are driven by cost.
For those plonkers that start sprouting the 'We pay your wages' cr@p, please desist. It is a touch annoying. Do you sit in a restaurant and after having a bad meal/service sprout 'I pay your wages'......I thought not. I also doubt you would say that on a train or in Tescos etc....
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It may be my post above about respect that got one poster 'upset'. He also said that many of us SLF want the cheapest flights possible. It is of course stupid to say that I would not choose that cheapest flight that fit my requirements, but one of my requirements is that the airline is responsible, safe and professional. Flying to Bangkok last year I had a number of options and chose a mid range price option, not the cheapest option.
To say that pasangers demand the cheapest flight might be true for some percentage of SLF, but a good chunk of us are willing to pay a fair price that allows an airline to give a good product and make a fair profit.
Yeild managment as the joke about the cost of paint for your house shows (anyone have a link to that??), only makes people unhappy and feel taken advantage of. Unhappy people make trouble and demand payback. I am willing to pay a fair price for my ticket, please give me the option to do so and get fair service in return!! No games, just honesty!
To say that pasangers demand the cheapest flight might be true for some percentage of SLF, but a good chunk of us are willing to pay a fair price that allows an airline to give a good product and make a fair profit.
Yeild managment as the joke about the cost of paint for your house shows (anyone have a link to that??), only makes people unhappy and feel taken advantage of. Unhappy people make trouble and demand payback. I am willing to pay a fair price for my ticket, please give me the option to do so and get fair service in return!! No games, just honesty!
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Do you sit in a restaurant and after having a bad meal/service sprout 'I pay your wages'......I thought not
And Tesco really understands service delivery.
To reiterate, it is the mickey taking by some companies that has brought this new ruling.
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"Do you sit in a restaurant and after having a bad meal/service sprout 'I pay your wages'......I thought not"
Most restaurants, if you point out service failures, will try to correct them or offer a discount.
Tesco is profitable because it provides what customers want.
As for getting what I pay for, how does that work when passengers pay high fares and still get treated badly.
Gatbusdriver, how does your employer obtain the money to pay your salary?
Most restaurants, if you point out service failures, will try to correct them or offer a discount.
Tesco is profitable because it provides what customers want.
As for getting what I pay for, how does that work when passengers pay high fares and still get treated badly.
Gatbusdriver, how does your employer obtain the money to pay your salary?
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Excuse me, but what's the news here? The legislation has been in place for years and all that piece of "news" is saying is that Alitalia were trying to be clever and get away from paying until someone ended up hitting them with a lawsuit.
Hasn't anybody read the Traveller's Rights posters plastered all over in every European airport? Or are we talking about something else?
I did get compensation without even asking the last two times I got delayed due to a "technical problem". Nowadays, I choose to fly Ryanair whenever possible as they seem to be quite good at getting there on time (and getting there at all in the first place, which is more that can be said about certain other companies).
Hasn't anybody read the Traveller's Rights posters plastered all over in every European airport? Or are we talking about something else?
I did get compensation without even asking the last two times I got delayed due to a "technical problem". Nowadays, I choose to fly Ryanair whenever possible as they seem to be quite good at getting there on time (and getting there at all in the first place, which is more that can be said about certain other companies).