Scared PAX force Air Berlin to replace aircraft
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The quoted news article was a bit, well, too sensational. The acft didn't abort the takeoffrun (twice) nor did they evacuate. First they just did not takeoff as they had a wrong flaps indication, mx fixed it, they wanted to start again but as the flight was scheduled for early in the morning a flight attendant felt unwell, probably didn't eat anything meanwhile - can happen. So they didn't takeoff the second time as well. Both times the pasengers disembark normally at the gate.
Thats the rumours i heard - and far more realistic.
Thats the rumours i heard - and far more realistic.
, I feel that "sensationalist media" is a call made too easily sometimes. I'll admit that "disembarked" would have been a better choice than "evacuation" though, my bad.This incident (not meaning the "accident" type of "incident" here) shows how sensitive passengers can react to news of serious aircraft accidents. That's why I posted it here. Being sensationalist or not, reports of the accidents at Madrid and Perm scare passengers. These concerns, legitimate or not, should be taken seriously by airlines and personnel, because customers' trust is one of the cornerstones of the industry.
I think it's quite remarkable that the airline addressed the passengers' concerns like they did and flew in a replacement aircraft, this surely didn't come cheap. Maybe it was for PR reasons, well handled then. On the other hand, from a PR perspective I don't understand why a spokesperson would go on the record saying passengers were panicky and over-reacting (even though this might be just so).
Just to be clear: I'm with you in criticizing how some media types handle accidents and how sloppy the reporting is. That's a core issue with journalism these days. And I understand the frustration of crew members here when they read reports by some hacks who can't tell a copter from a glider even if it hits them. But what also permeates this forum is a deep misconception of how media works in a 24/7 connected world.
Daily news is a fierce business, and media outlets are under pressure just as your airline employers. Competition and dwindling revenues force companies to make adjustments. Let's hope that with airlines, the need to save a penny here and there doesn't affect safety. In my trade, the economic pressure is already gnawing on our core assets: it kills accuracy and reliability.
Last edited by txl; 16th Sep 2008 at 11:02. Reason: minor corrections
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How many lives have been saved by refusing to board??? how many disasters averted by second guessing the filghtdeck????
Whilst I am aware the passengers are responsible for the boss being able to pay my wages, it is not always possible to inform the cabin of events as the workload increases expedientially if the problem is unusual or sudden.(misconfig, windshear, tcas, etc).
We try hard to be visual to the pax, often issuing relevant pa to assure and explain certain events but there is a limit in practical terms.
It is my job to fly the aircraft.....it is the pax job to allow us to do it in a competant and professional manner.
Whilst I am aware the passengers are responsible for the boss being able to pay my wages, it is not always possible to inform the cabin of events as the workload increases expedientially if the problem is unusual or sudden.(misconfig, windshear, tcas, etc).
We try hard to be visual to the pax, often issuing relevant pa to assure and explain certain events but there is a limit in practical terms.
It is my job to fly the aircraft.....it is the pax job to allow us to do it in a competant and professional manner.
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Simply tell them that if one gets off, you're all off and the flights cancelled.See how peer pressure works amongst the SLF and leave them to decide.I don't have the time to be held to ransom by silly passengers.
Let me out......... Let me out!!!!!!!!
Call me a chicken and i dont mean to sound supersticious, but i wouldn't wait for the third sign to get off that aircraft!!
As SLF, and a fairly relaxed one, I have to admit that if I was on an aircraft that had 2 aborted take-offs, I would seriously question whether "third time lucky" would apply. I would be strongly inclined not to re-board for the 3rd attempt.
I also write with the benefit of the hindsight that the wing flaps were not correctly set on the Spanair Madrid flight. The indicator light on the flight deck appears not to have worked. If I was on an aircraft that had 2 aborts, then my feelings would be: "2 strikes, is there a message here for me???? ... hmmmm OK, now I'M out of here".
The Air Berlin passengers were predominantly German I assume, and we all know how firmly they can stand their ground, especially in a group.
I think Rubik101 made a needless comment, I don't have less faith in the crew, just less faith in the aircraft, maintenance and perhaps management and other pressures inducing flight crew to continue, rather than call up another aircraft to allow more in-depth examination as to why a fault (that appeared to have been repaired) may have recurred. Surely as a pilot, would you be concerned about a fault (serious enough to cause an abort) recurred after you had been informed that it was fixed??? You may have sublime faith in your skills, but do the rest of the team have the same capabilities??
I also write with the benefit of the hindsight that the wing flaps were not correctly set on the Spanair Madrid flight. The indicator light on the flight deck appears not to have worked. If I was on an aircraft that had 2 aborts, then my feelings would be: "2 strikes, is there a message here for me???? ... hmmmm OK, now I'M out of here".
The Air Berlin passengers were predominantly German I assume, and we all know how firmly they can stand their ground, especially in a group.
I think Rubik101 made a needless comment, I don't have less faith in the crew, just less faith in the aircraft, maintenance and perhaps management and other pressures inducing flight crew to continue, rather than call up another aircraft to allow more in-depth examination as to why a fault (that appeared to have been repaired) may have recurred. Surely as a pilot, would you be concerned about a fault (serious enough to cause an abort) recurred after you had been informed that it was fixed??? You may have sublime faith in your skills, but do the rest of the team have the same capabilities??
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Allegedly a true story from way back that is worth repeating. (details might not be quite accurate, but near enough.)
Pilot (DB) night stopped away from base having flown a fixed-undercarriage DH Heron. He was due to be positioned home next morning as passenger in a "shiny" new Fokker F27 Friendship. DB stayed in the same hotel as the F27 crew. Apparently, the F27 crew took the Mickey out of DB all evening about his old fashioned aircraft, fixed undercarriage, etc, etc.
Next morning, during the taxi out, DB (sitting under the wings) noticed that the undercarriage locks were still fitted. He left it for a while until the holding point, when he summoned the stewardess and said that it would be a good idea if you "hand this note to the pilot".
Jack
Pilot (DB) night stopped away from base having flown a fixed-undercarriage DH Heron. He was due to be positioned home next morning as passenger in a "shiny" new Fokker F27 Friendship. DB stayed in the same hotel as the F27 crew. Apparently, the F27 crew took the Mickey out of DB all evening about his old fashioned aircraft, fixed undercarriage, etc, etc.
Next morning, during the taxi out, DB (sitting under the wings) noticed that the undercarriage locks were still fitted. He left it for a while until the holding point, when he summoned the stewardess and said that it would be a good idea if you "hand this note to the pilot".
Jack
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Icare9 says
I also write with the benefit of the hindsight that the wing flaps were not correctly set on the Spanair Madrid flight. The indicator light on the flight deck appears not to have worked. If I was on an aircraft that had 2 aborts, then my feelings would be: "2 strikes, is there a message here for me???? ... hmmmm OK, now I'M out of here".
The Air Berlin passengers were predominantly German I assume, and we all know how firmly they can stand their ground, especially in a group.
I think Rubik101 made a needless comment, I don't have less faith in the crew, just less faith in the aircraft, maintenance and perhaps management and other pressures inducing flight crew to continue, rather than call up another aircraft to allow more in-depth examination as to why a fault (that appeared to have been repaired) may have recurred. Surely as a pilot, would you be concerned about a fault (serious enough to cause an abort) recurred after you had been informed that it was fixed??? You may have sublime faith in your skills, but do the rest of the team have the same capabilities??
Icare9, i'm sorry but this post is misinformed to say the least.
firstly... the design of the aircraft is the thing that prevents most accidents. once the human element is added thats where the trouble begins.
secondly no maintenance engineer would knowingly sign for release of an aircraft that was not fit to fly. believe it or not a maintenance engineer know more about an aircraft than any pilot(flying on the other hand is for pilots).
thirdly...there is a HUGE difference between an 'aborted takeoff' and a 'return to stand'.
I also write with the benefit of the hindsight that the wing flaps were not correctly set on the Spanair Madrid flight. The indicator light on the flight deck appears not to have worked. If I was on an aircraft that had 2 aborts, then my feelings would be: "2 strikes, is there a message here for me???? ... hmmmm OK, now I'M out of here".
The Air Berlin passengers were predominantly German I assume, and we all know how firmly they can stand their ground, especially in a group.
I think Rubik101 made a needless comment, I don't have less faith in the crew, just less faith in the aircraft, maintenance and perhaps management and other pressures inducing flight crew to continue, rather than call up another aircraft to allow more in-depth examination as to why a fault (that appeared to have been repaired) may have recurred. Surely as a pilot, would you be concerned about a fault (serious enough to cause an abort) recurred after you had been informed that it was fixed??? You may have sublime faith in your skills, but do the rest of the team have the same capabilities??
Icare9, i'm sorry but this post is misinformed to say the least.
firstly... the design of the aircraft is the thing that prevents most accidents. once the human element is added thats where the trouble begins.
secondly no maintenance engineer would knowingly sign for release of an aircraft that was not fit to fly. believe it or not a maintenance engineer know more about an aircraft than any pilot(flying on the other hand is for pilots).
thirdly...there is a HUGE difference between an 'aborted takeoff' and a 'return to stand'.
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And if you questioned a doctor's diagnosis he would call you silly, a scientist would pour scorn in your direction and the CEO would laugh at you for questioning his management and leadership.
But I do wonder how much of this happens because we're talking about an airline, a route and a price that are all specialized for holiday-makers. Many of the passengers are not going to be frequent fliers, and in "holiday mode", they're likely to exhibit a wider range of behavior. As such, they probably have no idea of what a horrid pain in the ass cancellation or a change in equipment entails.
Oh yeah, and if the flight attendants are passing out because the airline doesn't maintain them properly, you have to wonder about all the non-sentient parts on the aircraft that we're entrusting our lives to.
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Wirelock - I take you point and agree entirely that it is obviously not possible to explain everything that seems untoward.
The only point I am trying to make is that it is the responsibility of the commander to manage the aircraft, and that unfortunately involves people management in these kinds of situations. Some pilots are better at it than others. The easyJet captain I referred to earlier was pretty skilled at it.
If passengers get into a frenzy on the bus, well then that is their problem. But if these incidents spiral out of control on board, the person who carries the can is the captain. The views of some supposedly professional pilots here demonstrate that they are shirking part of their responsibility.
The only point I am trying to make is that it is the responsibility of the commander to manage the aircraft, and that unfortunately involves people management in these kinds of situations. Some pilots are better at it than others. The easyJet captain I referred to earlier was pretty skilled at it.
If passengers get into a frenzy on the bus, well then that is their problem. But if these incidents spiral out of control on board, the person who carries the can is the captain. The views of some supposedly professional pilots here demonstrate that they are shirking part of their responsibility.
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agree 100%
when i am flying as a pax , i always think that its nice or calming to hear the voice from the flight deck, just to let every1 know that the flight is going fine.
if there is a problem with pax for some reason , then i think the communication between the cabin and flight deck is important to inform the flight crew of the status. after that it all up to the guy/gal in the left hand seat to sort it all out
when i am flying as a pax , i always think that its nice or calming to hear the voice from the flight deck, just to let every1 know that the flight is going fine.
if there is a problem with pax for some reason , then i think the communication between the cabin and flight deck is important to inform the flight crew of the status. after that it all up to the guy/gal in the left hand seat to sort it all out
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I would not label a passenger who does not wish to fly as 'silly', but I would label them as 'irresponsible' and 'selfish' if they cause a departure to be delayed or cancelled for no other reason than that they do not understand what is happening. Book an airline ticket and you accept the risks and responsibilities that are inherent in air travel (which are far fewer than almost any other form of transportation).
If you are suitably qualified or experienced, and you observe something that you reasonably assume to be a risk to the saftey of the flight, and you bring that to the attention of the crew, then fine. If you act irrationally despite having been given reasonable assurances from the crew that a problem has been resolved, then not fine!
By such actions, you are not only inconveniencing the rest of the passengers on your aircraft who are prepared to accept the professional advice of their crew, but probably several hundred others who will suffer delays or cancellations as a result of your actions. Do this too often, and you are placing at risk the financial viability of the airline, and therefore the jobs of ite employees.
Don't believe that airline survivability is that fragile? Read the papers.
Think very carefully before you book an airline ticket.
If you are suitably qualified or experienced, and you observe something that you reasonably assume to be a risk to the saftey of the flight, and you bring that to the attention of the crew, then fine. If you act irrationally despite having been given reasonable assurances from the crew that a problem has been resolved, then not fine!
By such actions, you are not only inconveniencing the rest of the passengers on your aircraft who are prepared to accept the professional advice of their crew, but probably several hundred others who will suffer delays or cancellations as a result of your actions. Do this too often, and you are placing at risk the financial viability of the airline, and therefore the jobs of ite employees.
Don't believe that airline survivability is that fragile? Read the papers.
Think very carefully before you book an airline ticket.
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I don't have the time to be held to ransom by silly passengers.
So this man's smarts (in the form of pure statistically-based logic), not silliness, grounded him.
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There is, no doubt, truth to both points. However, calling passengers "silly", particular of this AB Flight, is not quite right. Given the circumstances we are in with all the bad publicity, I can totally understand their reaction and even through the flight-crew was, as i would expect nothing else from an AB-Crew, totally professional in aborting both TOs. (However no applaus here, everyone professional should do so and would) And even through it now appears the aircraft was fit to fly, just imagine your family sitting in there...Now you wife is totally shaken up, because of all the accidents that happened and then you abort two TO, (by the way I'm not sure they made it to the RWY...did they?) I would assume even the flightcrew would have some understanding of the situation. I would definetely tell my wife to get out. ...even throught I do trust other pilots, I would be highly worried. Then again, most passengers, as was mentioned before, are at least a little bit nervous boarding a plane.
I just remember two years back travelling from Newark to Detroit as SLF...on a DC 9-30 (I believe it was, don't quite remember), plane full of Business-People (most of whom don't care anyway) on their way back to DTW...the right engine did make such enourmous noises, i thought the aircraft was going bust. Having flown on DC 9 before, I was quite disturbed, however trusted the Crew, as we were already airborne. But then again most SLF wouldn't even now, that we would make it with one engine shut down...not even thinking about a total failure for whatever reason. Now if that would happen out of LHR or TXL tomorrow and prior to take-off .... one can only imagine...I would assume passengers would crash into the cockpit to force the pilot to bring them back to the gate. Highly critical such behaviour as well.
By the way, we changed aircraft, i was supposed to go on with this a/c but were delayed until they found another one and crew.
Now imagine you sitting in such an A/c prior to TO, enourmous abnormal noises, wouldn't you think twice if somebody would ask you: " Go with this aircraft, or back to the gate?"...now If you say " GO " ...and everything works out fine, you of course would tell everyone..."this scared lil. xxxxx were so afraid, they almost had the flight delayed" ... BUT if it doesn't and somebody would ask you afterwards (of course that is probably impossible) you would, I assume tell them, that it was the best decision of your life not to fly with this a/c. Now again hypothetical, if only some left the aircraft, those who did and survived could tell (of course that would be outrageus in such a situation, and it is impossible I know) those who died "I told you". So don't get me wrong I'm against overreaction passengers, however applying common sense i do think the passengers point especially in the AB-case was understandable.
So I believe even through passengers shouldn't interfere with the flightdeck...everyone of us, being responsible, should care as much, as either calming them down or at least do have some sympathy. Calling them "silly" doesn't help.
Best Regards
I just remember two years back travelling from Newark to Detroit as SLF...on a DC 9-30 (I believe it was, don't quite remember), plane full of Business-People (most of whom don't care anyway) on their way back to DTW...the right engine did make such enourmous noises, i thought the aircraft was going bust. Having flown on DC 9 before, I was quite disturbed, however trusted the Crew, as we were already airborne. But then again most SLF wouldn't even now, that we would make it with one engine shut down...not even thinking about a total failure for whatever reason. Now if that would happen out of LHR or TXL tomorrow and prior to take-off .... one can only imagine...I would assume passengers would crash into the cockpit to force the pilot to bring them back to the gate. Highly critical such behaviour as well.
By the way, we changed aircraft, i was supposed to go on with this a/c but were delayed until they found another one and crew. Now imagine you sitting in such an A/c prior to TO, enourmous abnormal noises, wouldn't you think twice if somebody would ask you: " Go with this aircraft, or back to the gate?"...now If you say " GO " ...and everything works out fine, you of course would tell everyone..."this scared lil. xxxxx were so afraid, they almost had the flight delayed" ... BUT if it doesn't and somebody would ask you afterwards (of course that is probably impossible) you would, I assume tell them, that it was the best decision of your life not to fly with this a/c. Now again hypothetical, if only some left the aircraft, those who did and survived could tell (of course that would be outrageus in such a situation, and it is impossible I know) those who died "I told you". So don't get me wrong I'm against overreaction passengers, however applying common sense i do think the passengers point especially in the AB-case was understandable.
So I believe even through passengers shouldn't interfere with the flightdeck...everyone of us, being responsible, should care as much, as either calming them down or at least do have some sympathy. Calling them "silly" doesn't help.
Best Regards
Last edited by A330-300; 16th Sep 2008 at 14:35.
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my dear I flew once frm LAX to AMS after two aborted takeoffs. Quite funny actually, Pilot telling us the reasons...
MD11 - first abort due to insufficient tire pressure on the "helpy" wheel (RLG I assume, Rear Landing Gear ?)
second attempt failed due to speedometer malfunction - back to the gate for the 2nd time.
third attempt went fine though there were some shaky moments at lift-off. Few minutes later captain came on the PA and mentioned that this time all was well and we're set to reach AMS...
Important: Sympathetic appearance of captain with grey hair and full uniform helped a lot in terms of credibility. Would there have been some 2x years old FO it wouldn't have had the same authority...
I assume that - tongue in cheek - "Zis erplen WILL fly !! _I_ am ze kepten end I nou assuur yu zet we ar going to lift off _zis_ time" in a barky tone of voice won't really reassure the passengers...
MD11 - first abort due to insufficient tire pressure on the "helpy" wheel (RLG I assume, Rear Landing Gear ?)
second attempt failed due to speedometer malfunction - back to the gate for the 2nd time.
third attempt went fine though there were some shaky moments at lift-off. Few minutes later captain came on the PA and mentioned that this time all was well and we're set to reach AMS...
Important: Sympathetic appearance of captain with grey hair and full uniform helped a lot in terms of credibility. Would there have been some 2x years old FO it wouldn't have had the same authority...
I assume that - tongue in cheek - "Zis erplen WILL fly !! _I_ am ze kepten end I nou assuur yu zet we ar going to lift off _zis_ time" in a barky tone of voice won't really reassure the passengers...
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I flew down to CAG with XL (XLA564 I think) two weeks ago and the pre-flight announcement from the Pilot was not only very funny and self deprecating, but had the added bonus of getting everyone's attention and getting his main points across to the passengers. This had the desired effect of relaxing everyone 
Paxing All Over The World
We have seen this kind of reaction before. Each time there is a series of incidents and accidents close together, Pax react like this. That does not diminish their fears but means that SOP announcements and procedures need to be 'softened' or adapted, rather than just following the book.
My guess is that, as some FC here have said, reminding the Pax that you also want to get home safely tonight is part of the key. Standard announcement (say): "Safety is our first concern and we want to ensure that you reach your destination, relaxed and happy." adapted: "Safety is our first concern and I want to ensure that we all reach our destination, relaxed and happy."
No, they don't understand and Yes they have seen scary news stories. Even 15 years ago, we did not have hand held colour news cameras on the scene of a prang within minutes. Now we have cell phone footage that is so poor you really cannot make out what is happening - but it looks bad. There is no accurate commentary to give guidance and all the news media want is to get the pictures out there first before anyone else. The situation facing news staff was well stated earlier in this thread.
Adapt your contact with the Pax until they have calmed down - or decided to leave the a/c. A carrier may find it cheaper to change the a/c and crews - even when there is no need - than to fix the PR nightmare of:
We couldn't take off twice and then they forced me to stay onboard and I was terrified the whole time.
Did you reach your destination safely?
Yes - but I will never fly XYZ again.
Logic has nothing to do with it.
My guess is that, as some FC here have said, reminding the Pax that you also want to get home safely tonight is part of the key. Standard announcement (say): "Safety is our first concern and we want to ensure that you reach your destination, relaxed and happy." adapted: "Safety is our first concern and I want to ensure that we all reach our destination, relaxed and happy."
No, they don't understand and Yes they have seen scary news stories. Even 15 years ago, we did not have hand held colour news cameras on the scene of a prang within minutes. Now we have cell phone footage that is so poor you really cannot make out what is happening - but it looks bad. There is no accurate commentary to give guidance and all the news media want is to get the pictures out there first before anyone else. The situation facing news staff was well stated earlier in this thread.
Adapt your contact with the Pax until they have calmed down - or decided to leave the a/c. A carrier may find it cheaper to change the a/c and crews - even when there is no need - than to fix the PR nightmare of:
We couldn't take off twice and then they forced me to stay onboard and I was terrified the whole time.
Did you reach your destination safely?
Yes - but I will never fly XYZ again.
Logic has nothing to do with it.
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And what is it that assumption makes out of everyone? You have a valid point but I think public suspicion is beginnning to come to a head...I give you an example: 2pence of a UK pound for a return trip from LGW to DUB...where is there any possible logic in that? It simply cannot be the case.
I reckon that the longer we hang on to the cheap fairs thing, the worse things will get.
The trouble is that safety is actually far, far better now than under the more expensive fares rules. In fact so much better that the facts hardly bare comparison.
Whence from here? as they say in Shakespeare!
I reckon that the longer we hang on to the cheap fairs thing, the worse things will get.
The trouble is that safety is actually far, far better now than under the more expensive fares rules. In fact so much better that the facts hardly bare comparison.
Whence from here? as they say in Shakespeare!
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Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your views or questions here? Many of us pilots like to know exactly what you think of us, the job, the airline or anything that you think we should hear about
Actually this would not seem the case, in reality you are not allowed to post what you like, on this particular thread you are not allowed to be an SLF or have an opinion or view, or for that matter on any site....
Why would any un brain damaged person wish to expose themselves to such risks??
I would too, remove myself from that situation, and think good on the gerry's for once for standing up for their rights, guess the pilots of the doomed spanair, and aeroflot ect, ect thought the same, but where did they end up? in a burning wreck of mangled steel, so good on em for getting to their deStination alive...
Whats the matter with all, they may have just saved one of your own lives., cause for sure management would not make that call without the SLF intervention, so be god damm gratefull for once.
Actually this would not seem the case, in reality you are not allowed to post what you like, on this particular thread you are not allowed to be an SLF or have an opinion or view, or for that matter on any site....
Why would any un brain damaged person wish to expose themselves to such risks??
I would too, remove myself from that situation, and think good on the gerry's for once for standing up for their rights, guess the pilots of the doomed spanair, and aeroflot ect, ect thought the same, but where did they end up? in a burning wreck of mangled steel, so good on em for getting to their deStination alive...
Whats the matter with all, they may have just saved one of your own lives., cause for sure management would not make that call without the SLF intervention, so be god damm gratefull for once.