Scared PAX force Air Berlin to replace aircraft
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Festung Europa
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They may be doctors, scientists, CEOs, whatever but they don't have more qualifications than I do in the only subject that matters - determining if the aircraft is safe to fly. I do. And yes, sometimes they are silly, sometimes nice.
I do wonder if the whole behind the locked door obligation is starting to remove the pilots PR skills. Building relationships with the customers used to be one of the essential elements of becoming a Captain but nowadays its a metalic voice at TO and Landing and nothing more.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Berlin
Age: 56
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David1300, you're right, thanks for the tip. I wrote "revolting", but meant something more like "rebellious". In German, the meaning of "revoltierend" is more like "rebellious" and not "disgusting", hence the error. I'll fix that. Cheers.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Somewhere in the Irish Sea
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And if you questioned a doctor's diagnosis he would call you silly, a scientist would pour scorn in your direction and the CEO would laugh at you for questioning his management and leadership.
The problem here is the sensationalist and uninformed reporting in the media in our 24hr news culture - the images of other accidents become etched in their memories until they associate flying with fireballs.
Buy an airline ticket and part of that contract is trusting the professionals at the front of the aircraft - if you don't like it find another means of transport.
The problem here is the sensationalist and uninformed reporting in the media in our 24hr news culture - the images of other accidents become etched in their memories until they associate flying with fireballs.
Buy an airline ticket and part of that contract is trusting the professionals at the front of the aircraft - if you don't like it find another means of transport.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With a Doctor I am fully capable of obtaining a second opinion without being ejected from my burning seat as the plane disintegrates around me because of something the Doctor forgot to do..........
I wholly agree that the locked cockpit has put the crew out of touch with passengers, they only seem to see them when things go wrong and the Police are called. I prefer the Swiss appraoch where the aircraft commander did the announcement in front of the passengers.He had a face you see.
I wholly agree that the locked cockpit has put the crew out of touch with passengers, they only seem to see them when things go wrong and the Police are called. I prefer the Swiss appraoch where the aircraft commander did the announcement in front of the passengers.He had a face you see.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Wirelock says:
"as for the spanair pax that refused to board, i'm sorry but i have no sympathy for them. ...obvious overreaction really helps nobody and proves only the ignorance of the pax that refused to get on the aircraft over something trivial"
If you, as a professional pilot, get yourself into a situation where your passengers refuse to fly on your aircraft, perhaps you should ask yourself whether you, as the commander, have done enough to reassure them.
You talk about "ignorance of the pax" but do not stop to consider whether those commanders who can't even be bothered to address the passengers might play a role in the erosion of your authority.
I say this having flown on the day of the Madrid crash following a six hour delay and been hugely impressed to watch a superbly diplomatic easyJet captain pacify a whole aircraft of irate passengers by apologising, explaining, and finally standing at the front when they disembarked. It can be done.
"as for the spanair pax that refused to board, i'm sorry but i have no sympathy for them. ...obvious overreaction really helps nobody and proves only the ignorance of the pax that refused to get on the aircraft over something trivial"
If you, as a professional pilot, get yourself into a situation where your passengers refuse to fly on your aircraft, perhaps you should ask yourself whether you, as the commander, have done enough to reassure them.
You talk about "ignorance of the pax" but do not stop to consider whether those commanders who can't even be bothered to address the passengers might play a role in the erosion of your authority.
I say this having flown on the day of the Madrid crash following a six hour delay and been hugely impressed to watch a superbly diplomatic easyJet captain pacify a whole aircraft of irate passengers by apologising, explaining, and finally standing at the front when they disembarked. It can be done.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following (public) maintenance action and non-standard events I will do my very best at reassuring passengers that an aircraft is safe to fly. But how do you use logic to overcome irrational fear, phobias and poor logic? Some of the things I have faced are "I'm not flying in an aircraft with propellers" or "It must be broken, otherwise there wouldn't be an engineer working on it" or a simple "I'm not getting on". To date I've not had anyone get off but I've had a few not get on. But the passenger's that takes the biscuit is "I can't see what you are worried about, there's only a little bit of snow on the wings and we are already half an hour late".
PM
PM
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our Environment
I'm with John R on this one.
As the environment we work in, which is, to us normal and perhaps mundane, as we experience it daily or often multiple times daily, can be frightening, or at least cause acute anxiety, to other people it falls to us to offer reassurance and explanations of the perceived unusual.
I can't say that I'm fond of visiting the dentist, but my dentist, a glider pilot, explains before he starts what he is going to do and why etc and any anxiety I have disappears, even though I still do't enjoy the experience.
If passengers, however ill informed or terminally stupid, have a perception that something is amiss, more often than not the explanation by the Captain of exactly what has happened / is happening will calm everything down.
If anyone chooses not to travel after the Captain has spoken with them, that is their prerogative, as it remains to me to get up out of the dentist's chair and walk away: as I would still have to pay for the dentist's time it is only right that the passenger who chooses not to fly in the those circumstances forfeits the cost of the ticket.
As the environment we work in, which is, to us normal and perhaps mundane, as we experience it daily or often multiple times daily, can be frightening, or at least cause acute anxiety, to other people it falls to us to offer reassurance and explanations of the perceived unusual.
I can't say that I'm fond of visiting the dentist, but my dentist, a glider pilot, explains before he starts what he is going to do and why etc and any anxiety I have disappears, even though I still do't enjoy the experience.
If passengers, however ill informed or terminally stupid, have a perception that something is amiss, more often than not the explanation by the Captain of exactly what has happened / is happening will calm everything down.
If anyone chooses not to travel after the Captain has spoken with them, that is their prerogative, as it remains to me to get up out of the dentist's chair and walk away: as I would still have to pay for the dentist's time it is only right that the passenger who chooses not to fly in the those circumstances forfeits the cost of the ticket.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: always airborne
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The quoted news article was a bit, well, too sensational. The acft didn't abort the takeoffrun (twice) nor did they evacuate. First they just did not takeoff as they had a wrong flaps indication, mx fixed it, they wanted to start again but as the flight was scheduled for early in the morning a flight attendant felt unwell, probably didn't eat anything meanwhile - can happen. So they didn't takeoff the second time as well. Both times the pasengers disembark normally at the gate.
Thats the rumours i heard - and far more realistic.
Of course the plane flow safe another leg with different passengers as there was nothing wrong at all.
Offtopic: I so so hate to fly those brandnew fresh out of the factory planes. They always have misindications alot. If i experienced anything in the last few weeks (RA failure and stuff like that) it was always on planes with less than 1000 hrs on the clock. Is there a special thread for this topic somewhere?
Thats the rumours i heard - and far more realistic.
Of course the plane flow safe another leg with different passengers as there was nothing wrong at all.
Offtopic: I so so hate to fly those brandnew fresh out of the factory planes. They always have misindications alot. If i experienced anything in the last few weeks (RA failure and stuff like that) it was always on planes with less than 1000 hrs on the clock. Is there a special thread for this topic somewhere?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Alabama
Age: 58
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following (public) maintenance action and non-standard events I will do my very best at reassuring passengers that an aircraft is safe to fly. But how do you use logic to overcome irrational fear, phobias and poor logic? Some of the things I have faced are "I'm not flying in an aircraft with propellers" or "It must be broken, otherwise there wouldn't be an engineer working on it" or a simple "I'm not getting on". To date I've not had anyone get off but I've had a few not get on. But the passenger's that takes the biscuit is "I can't see what you are worried about, there's only a little bit of snow on the wings and we are already half an hour late".
There will be always irrational fear, phobias and poor logic. But providing information and explaining to PAX what is going on will help to overcame such situations. Recently we had smoke in the cabin and we had to return to KUL. I could see all the flashing lights of the emergency services waiting on the airstrip. No one panicked, the cabin was very calm. The captain did inform the passenger of the situation and the cabin crew show an impeccable calm.
We landed, changed aircraft and, for my knowledge, nobody refuse to board and in less than two hours on the way again.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: With Phileas Phogg
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your quite correct, if there has been a tech delay there is always one passenger who believes they know it all and who has wound up the other passengers. I am always surprised when intelligent people tend to believe some of the drivel a stranger tells them. Then again as someone has said they are out of their normal environment and not knowing can be scary. I have always combated this by pointing out to any worried passengers that I am no braver than them and if I thought there was a problem with the aircraft I would be the first one off it. This retinal has, so far, always calmed any fears and made them see sence.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May I respectfully suggest torubic101, that "peer pressure" together with arrogance, conceit and complacency,has led to many a flight-crew taking their ignorant, trusting pax on a trip to the pearly gates.
Private transport: trust your own judgement and the honesty and integrity of your driver.
Public Transport: pay for a tightly regulated , irreproachable standard of "vehicle" staff and systems.
It isn't happening! A quick fix at the side of the road is bound to breed doubt and as a previous poster stated, It's up to a PROFESSIONAL Pilot to explain and reassure those in his care, that any "unusual" activities are, in fact, "routine"
Even the obvious line" if anything goes wrong, I "cop for it" it before you , Please be assured, I want to arrive safely,please tag along with me"
SLF, bridle when treated with contempt and my intelligence is insulted.
Private transport: trust your own judgement and the honesty and integrity of your driver.
Public Transport: pay for a tightly regulated , irreproachable standard of "vehicle" staff and systems.
It isn't happening! A quick fix at the side of the road is bound to breed doubt and as a previous poster stated, It's up to a PROFESSIONAL Pilot to explain and reassure those in his care, that any "unusual" activities are, in fact, "routine"
Even the obvious line" if anything goes wrong, I "cop for it" it before you , Please be assured, I want to arrive safely,please tag along with me"
SLF, bridle when treated with contempt and my intelligence is insulted.
I can't say that I'm fond of visiting the dentist, but my dentist, a glider pilot, explains before he starts what he is going to do and why etc and any anxiety I have disappears, even though I still do't enjoy the experience.
Time to lighten up, folks. Next topic.......
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: moving around
Age: 47
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John R says:
If you, as a professional pilot, get yourself into a situation where your passengers refuse to fly on your aircraft, perhaps you should ask yourself whether you, as the commander, have done enough to reassure them.
You talk about "ignorance of the pax" but do not stop to consider whether those commanders who can't even be bothered to address the passengers might play a role in the erosion of your authority.
i take you point, but let me clarify. firstly i am not a pilot. i am a licensed engineer. i was making a comparison between the situations mentioned at start of thread.
look John R i can understand that people are anxious when flying on a spanair aircraft but what do u expect the pilots to do... on the mic every time the slightest bump is felt during boarding.... the bump u just felt was some luggage been put on the plane... or the noise u just heard was the fuel bowser been attached to the wing... or it might get loud now that we are going to take off . silly season is here!!
so i repeat my statement... if people dont want to get on a spanair plane then dont, but please if u refuse to board because a pilot or an engineer is doing a walkaround it just shows how little you know about aviation or servicability of an aircraft.
PS if i was on the Air berlin flight mentioned for thread title i would not have stayed on the flight unless i knew what the problem was and how they fixed it!!!
If you, as a professional pilot, get yourself into a situation where your passengers refuse to fly on your aircraft, perhaps you should ask yourself whether you, as the commander, have done enough to reassure them.
You talk about "ignorance of the pax" but do not stop to consider whether those commanders who can't even be bothered to address the passengers might play a role in the erosion of your authority.
i take you point, but let me clarify. firstly i am not a pilot. i am a licensed engineer. i was making a comparison between the situations mentioned at start of thread.
look John R i can understand that people are anxious when flying on a spanair aircraft but what do u expect the pilots to do... on the mic every time the slightest bump is felt during boarding.... the bump u just felt was some luggage been put on the plane... or the noise u just heard was the fuel bowser been attached to the wing... or it might get loud now that we are going to take off . silly season is here!!
so i repeat my statement... if people dont want to get on a spanair plane then dont, but please if u refuse to board because a pilot or an engineer is doing a walkaround it just shows how little you know about aviation or servicability of an aircraft.
PS if i was on the Air berlin flight mentioned for thread title i would not have stayed on the flight unless i knew what the problem was and how they fixed it!!!
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following (public) maintenance action and non-standard events I will do my very best at reassuring passengers that an aircraft is safe to fly. But how do you use logic to overcome irrational fear, phobias and poor logic?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JohnR,
I understand you are talking about the Spanair event. Well, the captain wasn't even there--we'd just been bused out to the tarmac and left in the bus for a few minutes as the cabin hadn't been readied yet.
FreqSLF,
Regardless of any academic achievements they might have had (and in this particular instance it's safe to say they didn't have any), their reaction put them squarely in the "mindless idiot who's going to make a scene" category.
Guppy,
Oh yes, I do, as a first-hand witness. Those people who stirred the ****, and most of those who followed them were functionally illiterate. Amongst other things (apart from their use of uneducated speech) not being capable of filling out the complaint forms they were given was a bit of a giveaway. It was in fact quite telling when at one point they decided to split the passengers in two groups, those that wanted to fly and those who didn't--you could smell the grey matter imbalance from two terminals away 
Slim,
Matter of fact, I travelled Ryanair on the way back. I was hoping that if a similar situation arise, apart from forfeiting their ticket they would also be charged for any delay incurred in offloading their bags. If there's anyone who will not let emotion get on the way of business that's got to be your boss MOL 
In this regard, it is true that part of the blame should go to the airline, as they could have handled the event a lot better than just letting a couple of loud mouthed pricks take control of the situation.
perhaps you should ask yourself whether you, as the commander, have done enough to reassure them.
FreqSLF,
Did ever pass to your mind that those silly passenger might have more qualification that you have?
Guppy,
I don't think anyone questions the intelligence of the passengers.
Slim,
it is only right that the passenger who chooses not to fly in the those circumstances forfeits the cost of the ticket.
In this regard, it is true that part of the blame should go to the airline, as they could have handled the event a lot better than just letting a couple of loud mouthed pricks take control of the situation.
FX Guru
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Greenwich
Age: 67
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If passengers don't want to fly in a plane, that's up to them.
Dump them. They lose their money. They were offered a seat and declined it. Sod 'em. If necessary fly the plane empty to the destination, there are pax there who want to go to the aircraft's next destination.
If the pilot is happy to be on the plane I'm happy to be on it. I always assume the pilot wants to return to his home that night alive and well.
Dump them. They lose their money. They were offered a seat and declined it. Sod 'em. If necessary fly the plane empty to the destination, there are pax there who want to go to the aircraft's next destination.
If the pilot is happy to be on the plane I'm happy to be on it. I always assume the pilot wants to return to his home that night alive and well.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Alabama
Age: 58
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LH2
I was not specifically referring to the Air Berlin case. I do not have sufficient info to speak about the specific situation. I am arguing that there are no silly passengers, you might call their actions silly.
My point is that has become more and more a common place to define the PAX idiots, silly, or anything else. For a group of people seems that all the PAX combined will never have the intelligence of the guys in front. IMHO that is the issue: give credit to the PAX and treat them as intelligent, not as just piece of self loading freight without brain
AN
Regardless of any academic achievements they might have had (and in this particular instance it's safe to say they didn't have any), their reaction put them squarely in the "mindless idiot who's going to make a scene" category.
My point is that has become more and more a common place to define the PAX idiots, silly, or anything else. For a group of people seems that all the PAX combined will never have the intelligence of the guys in front. IMHO that is the issue: give credit to the PAX and treat them as intelligent, not as just piece of self loading freight without brain
AN