A family's KLM passenger offload experience

[AlexW1]

Hi there

My family had a passenger offloading problem with KLM back in April for which I am still awaiting a satisfactory explanation from their Customer Care department.
Just wondering whether anyone here could shed any light on this sort of thing – sadly I am not a high-flyer at a major company so unlike the Ladbrokes chap and BA I don’t have much leverage…

This is what happened.
Self, husband, 7 and 4-year-old sons travelling ABZ-AMS all on same booking, hand luggage only. All passengers had boarded plane and were seated. Plane was fairly full but not 100% .
Captain then announced that ground staff had made a mistake and had erroneously boarded all passengers when they should have offloaded 15 passengers (and some luggage and cargo) due to payload issues. Ground staff (non-KLM, but not sure who) then came on board with list of 15 named passengers (note no request made for volunteers first) and summarily required them to disembark. Flight and cabin crew pretty disgruntled at the situation but not as disgruntled as the named passengers!

Among the 15 surnames were two males from our family (we have a gender variant in the surname) so obviously at least one was a child. But why split a family of four like that? Captain was sympathetic and raised this with the ground staff member with The List, who promptly said that if it was a problem then all four of us should disembark. As that implied that no discretion could be shown, we decided to stick rigidly to the list and stay split (on the basis that we were only going for the weekend to see friends we hadn't seen in years and there was no sense all four of us having the weekend spoilt if two could avoid it). So husband and 4-year-old disembarked and I stayed on with 7-year-old stayed on and flew to AMS. By the way, the 4-year-old weighs 21 kg so presumably offloading him could have made no material difference to the payload.

That in itself was bad enough, but KLM compounded the situation by promising to route them via Paris on the last CDG-AMS connection but cocked up the transfer so that they ended up stuck at CDG. Rather than stay in a hotel and put up with more faffing about in the morning, in the end they shared a hire car with some equally fed-up Dutch businessmen from the same flight who were driving up, arriving at hotel at 0215.

KLM eventually (in response to my complaint) offered the appropriate statutory compensation + expenses but as yet have not responded to the questions I raised which were:
a) How could the offloading list split a family with young children?
b) Why did they not first ask for volunteers?
c) (And of course the knock-on consequences - why did they cock up the Paris transfer...)

Note – I totally understand that sometimes it is necessary to offload passengers; my complaint is that they did it in a summary manner and their list split the family.

I assume that what happened was that they thought that in the circumstances a named list was the quickest way to reduce the payload and get the plane going rather than wasting time going through any other procedure. And that once they realised a family had been divided they thought it would be more expedient to try to kick the rest of the family off rather than appear to favour us over any other passengers.
How often does this sort of thing happen? I’m intrigued as to what (if any) criteria would be used to draw up the list.

[Bus429]

See posts [I]passim[I] but this is symptomatic of the high-handed arrogance demonstrated by airlines and other service industries. The greed is so rampant that bosses will sanction anything to make that extra buck/pound/euro

I really hate the industry now.

[jojo82]

from my past experience working as a ramp agent, when pax need to be offloaded there are a few options we go through, depending why the offload needs to be done:
1. always ask for volunteers first
2. last 10 pax to check in = offloaded.
3. cheapest paid fare = offloaded

a few more that cant think of right now

if its a weight issue, pax are the very last to be offloaded normally. every airline is different but its normally:
1. standby/rebate staff travel pax
2. catering
3. baggage
4. then passengers.........

you are right to ask for an explantion, i would keep asking until you get one. it is not right them offloading two memebers of your family. i hope you get a reply soon from them.

[c2lass]

I do sympathise with you as that is pretty awful Customer Service. Unfortunately KLM and Customer Service do not go together. I have only flown with them twice and pretty poor both times.

We were flying back from Zurich via AMS then home to ABZ. Our flight from AMS - ABZ was the last flight of the night 20.20. We arrived at Zurich at noon, to be told at check in that we couldn't check in for AMS-ABZ as there was only one seat left (we had these flights booked for 8 months!!) The girl at ZRH said there was nothing more she could do and we would have to wait until we got to AMS and go to the transfer desk. So we had a very stressful flight, not knowing if we would get back to ABZ that night.

Arriving at AMS hubby went to the transfer desk and was horrified at their attitude which was... we have overbooked you will just have to wait at the gate and see if there is a seat. He asked to speak to a supervisor and was told the same thing. Apparantly hubby was told they do this all the time!!

The long shot was, we did get back to ABZ that night but did not know until 15 mins before the flight left. What I couldn't understand was here was us trying to check in for this flight at noon, some 8 hours ealier and upon speaking to people at the gate, they had only just checked in. I really just could not understand KLM's couldn't care less attitude.

I would definitely keep on at them and ask for an explanation.
Good luck

[Bus429]

I've lost count of the number of times I've flown with KLM (I've just "spent" 186000 airmiles accrued over the last 2 years) but I confirm that their attitude to customers stinks. That said, I cannot think of one airlines that does not treat its passengers like poo. I think BA are the best of a bad bunch in my experience.

[Capot]

Two points from the original, admirably restrained post.

I am still awaiting a satisfactory explanation from their Customer Care department

I wouldn't bother waiting. If you get one it will the the first in history. Move straight to taking legal action in the Small Claims court for all monies you believe they owe you, including refunds, and damages.

I totally understand that sometimes it is necessary to offload passengers

You are much too understanding. If, having booked, checked in and boarded passengers on a short-haul sector, an airline then finds it necessary to offload 15 for "payload reasons", someone somewhere has made a stupid, incompetent, unacceptable, gross error. Whoever it was should be sacked forthwith.

If someone cares to post, from certain knowledge, why it happened we could reconsider. But I can think of almost nothing that could cause the allowable take-off weight to be reduced by 1.5 Tonnes between boarding and closing the doors. Sudden change to a short runway, maybe? Somehow I doubt it. Some problem with the landing weight, again notified to the crew between boarding and closing the doors? Unlikely.

Too much fuel on board? Maybe, but that could, should have been picked up much sooner. Captain 's last-minute decision to load 1.5 Tonnes extra? Possible, but not after boarding, surely?

The error, if it was one, was obviously captured before it was capable of causing a crash, probably by the flight crew just before the doors were closed. Had the aircraft taken off with 1500 Kgs (ie 15 passengers at normal weights) too much that, especially with another problem (engine fire at V1, say) would have created a highly dangerous situation.

KLM should be on its hands and knees begging not to have its operating permit pulled after that little beauty of a cock-up, as well as appeasing rightly disgruntled passengers with swift, friendly responses and lots of money to keep the incident under the Press radar and away from the Regulator's attention.

Was an MOR submitted? Hmmm, I doubt it. KLM employees know better.

Those who would ignore KLM's dreadful attitude to its customers, and continue to use them, should bear in mind that KLM is The Netherlands CAA's biggest "client" by far, and that civil servants tend not to rock the boat.

If the flight was operated by KLM UK the Netherlands CAA is out of the picture. But you would wait a long time for the UK CAA to take a pro-active interest in a safety-related gross error, just so long as the right procedures were documented.

[AlexW1]

Thanks all for your input so far.

I'm not bothered about extracting more money from them - they're currently processing the statutory compensation per offloaded passenger plus expenses. I am bothered about getting an explanation/investigation as that (in an ideal world....) might lessen the probability of similar happening again.

OK, it sounds as if getting useful info from KLM Customer Care could be harder than getting blood from a stone. So, current situation is that I have emailed and written back requesting responses to the unanswered questions from the original complaint. There is no telephone number mentioned on the website for Customer Care so I can't actually speak to them, just correspond. If I don't get a reply (or if I get another pointless fob-off reply) - who do I approach to kick them into action? UK CAA (at least then there's some record outside KLM even if nothing gets done)? Write to the top guy at KLM? Write to an appropriate part of the press?

Originally Posted by jojo82

3. cheapest paid fare = offloaded

That reminds me, I'd forgotten that I booked the flights on air miles; maybe that had something to do with it... But we definitely checked in early; did it online the day before.

Originally Posted by Capot

Was an MOR submitted?

Apologies for my ignorance; I don't know enough about aviation procedures to understand all the ins and outs - what is a MOR?
Does it make any difference that the ground staff aren't KLM's own? Where is the division of labour? Are KLM fobbing me off because the reasons for the problem lie with a third party company (albeit contracted on their behalf) and they can't be bothered?

Originally Posted by Capot

Sudden change to a short runway?

ABZ is known for its short runway, I believe. At the risk of demonstrating uninformed conjecture - could someone somewhere have forgotten to account for that? But surely unlikely as they fly in and out all the time?

[Capot]

AlexW1

I could be that the fare you paid had something to do with the selection for off-loading, but it should not. Well, the need should never arise, but if it does, a good company would probably call for volunteers to receive the denied boarding comp. There's usually several who aren't in a hurry and would like the cash.

Forgive me; MOR = Mandatory Occurrence Report. It's arguable that one should have been submitted in view of the potential hazard involved with a 1.5 Tonne overloaded situation. But I'm sure someone will say that the letter of the law, rather than the spirit, does not mandate an MOR in those circs. I was hoping that someone would respond from the handling company or indeed KLM.

An airline is totally responsible in all respects for the actions of a contractor acting on its behalf, as the handling company would have been, if they and not KLM handled the flight. They cannot be allowed to hide behind their contractor. Are they trying to fob you off with nonsense? Yes.

I don't know who got the sums wrong, if that's what happened, or why. Normally, with a scheduled service everything is planned and calculated in advance with adjustments (minor) being made for conditions or special circumstances on the day. A short runway shuld not come as a surprise, if it's the only one. Sudden changes from a main runway can happen, say if there's an immobile aircraft blocking the main, but that's very rare and KLM would have used it as their excuse without hesitation.

The point is that what happened to you is way outside the normal range of upset, and it almost certainly happened because someone, in KLM or its agent, screwed up royally. The flight should never have been booked with 1.5 Tonnes (or thereabouts) too much weight, let alone checked in and boarded.

My money's on a gross error with the loadsheet having booked and checked in too many people, spotted by the crew when asked to sign it, or a sudden realisation that the aircraft had 1.5 Tonnes more fuel in the tank than the dispatcher knew about, which is also a loadsheet error, really. Both count as "potentially dangerous screw-up".

Another possibility may be some very last-minute freight whose shipper has a great deal of long-haul business and clout with KLM. Possibly already delayed, with a very angry shipper? An oil company, perhaps?

Let's see if anyone pops up to enlighten us and perhaps exonerate them.

[419]

I was always lead to believe that an MOR must be raised whenever there is an accident or incident which has caused injury to a person or damage to an aircraft, or whenever an incident occurs which has the potential to do so.

IMO, this certainly seems like such an incident.

[Bus429]

Before this thead goes completely haywire:

Does the situation described really merit an MOR? In any case, all such reports - and those submitted in accordance with AMC 20-8 (see 2042 Annexe 1 Part M) - should be reported within 72 hours of becoming aware of the circumstances.

If the flight was operated by KLM UK the Netherlands CAA is out of the picture.

I thought KLM uk had been subsumed by KLM; all their aircraft are PH-registered.

Frankly, all talk of occurrence reports is tosh.

[419]

Why tosh?

If one appropriate person is of the opinion that an MOR is justified, they have every right to raise one.
Whether or not it is acted on, followed up or totally ignored is a total different matter.

CAP 382 CAA guidance on the MOR's gives a list of examples where MOR's could be raised. (Appendix 2).
One of these is

b) Incorrect loading of passengers, baggage or cargo, likely to have a significant effect on aircraft mass and/or balance.

[AlexW1]

Whoops - after posting have just seen almost simultaneous reply above from 419 - great minds think alike... etc. etc.

Going slightly off on this MOR track (and way outside my own expertise - all I did was search the net for the document; I have no connection with aviation other than as a passenger) for what its worth as background I just looked up the CAA document about MOR reporting (CAP 382 The Mandatory Occurrence Reporting Scheme):
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap382.pdf
and Appendix B (Occurrences Required to be Reported) has in its list
4.3 b) "Incorrect loading of passengers, baggage or cargo, likely to have a significant effect on aircraft mass and/or balance."

There's no point dwelling on whether or not they should have raised one - either they did or they didn't and the time has passed but I do see from this where some of you were coming from in previous replies.

[Capot]

Yes, well, as I said,

It's arguable that one should have been submitted in view of the potential hazard involved with a 1.5 Tonne overloaded situation.

That's not the real point, which is that the very last-minute offload of 1.5 Tonnes of self-offloading freight indicates that a gross and serious error had been made which, if not captured as it presumably was, could have had potentially fatal consequences.

IE someone screwed up big-time. I don't expect the airline willingly to admit it publicly or release details, but I would expect the airline to be very, very polite and generous to the passengers who were offloaded as a consequence of the screwup, rather than meting out the further punishment that it evidently did.

That's what is so disgraceful, and so typical of KLM. And the passengers should pursue them through the small claims court for huge amounts, just to show them that they cannot do this in the 21st century.

Payment by Air Miles, incidentally, is not cheap or "free", it nets the airline substantial sums which you have paid for, and yopu are entitled to exactly the same treatment as anyone who has paid a fare to travel.

[Bus429]

Hang on! This post started because Alex W1 had a problem with KLM; now we're in the realms of incorrectly loaded aircraft and reportable occurrences. This is ill-infomed anorak speculation IMHO (go ahead and report me!).

I have submitted and investigated MORs several times in the past. I'm well aware of the circumstances requiring a report and the applicability of CAP 382 (those of you quoting CAP 382 should read paragraphs 5.1 & 5.2 of the document).
I think KLM Ciyhopper now operates under a Netherlands AOC. If you were talking about occurrence reporting, you may want to find out what the Netherlands' Competent Authority has determined is an appropriate method of reporting (See Part M, EU-OPS and Regulation 216/2008). EASA has provision for any concerned party to raise a Form 44 and submit it direct to Koln; this form is primarily for non-EU Part 145/Subpart G organisations but does allow anyone with concerns to use it.

[419]

It was clearly stated that the pax and baggage were offoladed due to payload issues, and IMO, this might have had the potential to cause a problem.
If there were 15 pax, baggage and cargo removed, someone must have made an error somewhere, which is why an MOR was mentioned.

Captain then announced that ground staff had made a mistake and had erroneously boarded all passengers when they should have offloaded 15 passengers (and some luggage and cargo) due to payload issues.

[Bus429]

It was clearly stated that the pax and baggage were offoladed due to payload issues, and IMO, this might have had the potential to cause a problem.
If there were 15 pax, baggage and cargo removed, someone must have made an error somewhere, which is why an MOR was mentioned.

If this was the - very hypothetical - case, what occurrence is there to report? If the pax were offloaded the situation was remedied!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh :

[VAFFPAX]

Bus429, it may have been remedied from the f/c pov, but NOT from AlexW1's (the SLF) pov! Alex wants to know what made KLM draw up the list the way they did.

I know f/c simply refer to passengers as SLF for a reason (and sometimes it's the worst reason of the lot), but in this case, that SLF has a brain and is demanding to know WTH her family was split up, and how to get KLM to explain why they did what they did.

Alex, for the record, I totally understand your situation, and I'd be doing the same as you - raising hell to get (even if it is grim) satisfaction for your query. I hope you manage.

S.

[419]

If this was the - very hypothetical - case, what occurrence is there to report? If the pax were offloaded the situation was remedied!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It makes no difference if the situation was remedied or not, and it was far from hypothetical. It was a fact (stated by the captain) that the aircraft was partially unloaded due to loading issues.

An MOR can be raised for an occurance which did or which could have lead to an unsafe condition

5.4.3 A report should also be submitted on any occurrence which involves, for example, a defective condition or unsatisfactory behaviour or procedure which did not immediately endanger the aircraft but which, if allowed to continue uncorrected, or if repeated in different, but likely, circumstances, would create a hazard.

I raised an MOR last year for an incident in which a passenger on a helicopter was found to have 4 disposable cigarette lighters in a jacket he was carrying. These were found before he boarded, but only because he dropped one when walking to the aircraft.
(These were very cheaply made very brittle lighters which can explode if dropped on a hard surface).

Should I have ignored the fact that this wasn't stopped by the baggage and security checks, and not raised an MOR due to the situation being remedied before the aircraft departed?

[Bus429]

CAP 382 refers to UK CAA AOCs. Is KLM Cityhopper a UK AOC?

[419]

No, but ANY safety related issue can be reported to the CAA, who will, if necessary, take it up with the relevant aviation authority.