Bring Back Honest Fares
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Bring Back Honest Fares
Just paid £65.00 for a return flight between the UK and Ireland.
I'd be happy to pay double if the airline treated me like an intelligent adult and made me feel like a valued customer with a bit of old-fashioned service thrown in.
Instead, I feel that I've been conned and that any "service" is provided reluctantly, for a fee.
Advertise an honest price and I'll pay it. Don't advertise a silly fare and let me discover that you'll add a bit to check in a bag, give me a choice of seat, process my credit card payment, etc., etc.
Quote me an inclusive price that covers your costs and your profit margin. Cut out all the time-wasting administration of extras for a fee.
I'd be happy to pay double if the airline treated me like an intelligent adult and made me feel like a valued customer with a bit of old-fashioned service thrown in.
Instead, I feel that I've been conned and that any "service" is provided reluctantly, for a fee.
Advertise an honest price and I'll pay it. Don't advertise a silly fare and let me discover that you'll add a bit to check in a bag, give me a choice of seat, process my credit card payment, etc., etc.
Quote me an inclusive price that covers your costs and your profit margin. Cut out all the time-wasting administration of extras for a fee.
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Has it really gotten that bad in the UK? I just ran into the same thing booking flights on the new domestic Russian carrier Sky Express. Thankfully, this craziness has not hit the US, yet (except those flights where you have to buy your food).
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Sounds like you've been Ryanair'ed. Alas, it truely is the cattlecar carrier of teh world, but people seem to be willing to trade a good experience for a cheaper buck..
I'm with you, however. My last haul to EWR from LAX in the cattle-class section with AA had me truly wondering what had happened to commercial aviation in the past 30 years. I'd gladly pay a few more bucks for honest service..
I miss the regulated days where price wasn't the competing factor, and service was. I realize there's more than one side to that fence, but from back here in row 40B, I'm wishing I could at least feel like my patronage was valued.
I'm with you, however. My last haul to EWR from LAX in the cattle-class section with AA had me truly wondering what had happened to commercial aviation in the past 30 years. I'd gladly pay a few more bucks for honest service..
I miss the regulated days where price wasn't the competing factor, and service was. I realize there's more than one side to that fence, but from back here in row 40B, I'm wishing I could at least feel like my patronage was valued.
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Arfur
You get what you pay for.
Most of my travel is with flag carrying airlines - AF, LH and the rest. They don't charge me extra when I put something in the hold or when I want a drink and something to eat. When things go wrong they provide me with a nice hotel room and they let me call my wife at their expense.
I should point out that I don't ever recall paying only £65 for a flight from one of these airlines, they cost a lot more.
Air travel has changed a lot, loco's have been charging for hold luggage for a while now, as well as other things. If you want full service you have to go with a full service airline, but it costs more.
You get what you pay for.
Most of my travel is with flag carrying airlines - AF, LH and the rest. They don't charge me extra when I put something in the hold or when I want a drink and something to eat. When things go wrong they provide me with a nice hotel room and they let me call my wife at their expense.
I should point out that I don't ever recall paying only £65 for a flight from one of these airlines, they cost a lot more.
Air travel has changed a lot, loco's have been charging for hold luggage for a while now, as well as other things. If you want full service you have to go with a full service airline, but it costs more.
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Unfortunately, it seems that while Ryanair is the driving force in this "screw-the-PAX-and-charge-em-while-you're-at-it" revolution, it won't end there. Startups like Skybus and others are certain to stretch it much much further.
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This is a necessary, but unpleasant, part of the turning wheel. Soon we will find that operators are 'astonished' to learn that is isn't all about price, but about service and overall value.
They currently dignify it as 'no frills', but it will soon be seen (as once it was) as sub-standard, rip-off service based on lowest-common-denominator standards.
When everything you want and value in a flight is an 'extra', people are actually bright enough (eventually) to say 'enough'. But it is down to us.
These airlines treat us as suckers and until we do something to convince them that we are not, they will keep,on doing it (and can you blame them?).
So let's all start saying it...............NOW.
I suspect that if nobody checked in an extra bag, paid for refreshments on board, bought the 'duty free' stuff on board, paid extra for credit card bookings etc, that these airlines might rediscover customer service. And if they don't, I won't be weeping as they go out of business.....
They currently dignify it as 'no frills', but it will soon be seen (as once it was) as sub-standard, rip-off service based on lowest-common-denominator standards.
When everything you want and value in a flight is an 'extra', people are actually bright enough (eventually) to say 'enough'. But it is down to us.
These airlines treat us as suckers and until we do something to convince them that we are not, they will keep,on doing it (and can you blame them?).
So let's all start saying it...............NOW.
I suspect that if nobody checked in an extra bag, paid for refreshments on board, bought the 'duty free' stuff on board, paid extra for credit card bookings etc, that these airlines might rediscover customer service. And if they don't, I won't be weeping as they go out of business.....
SXB, I do hate this flippant often given answer, "you get what you pay for". I don't believe that's quite true. It may well apply to those who have been able to book early and benefit from the gimmick "throw-away" fares, but it does not apply to late bookers. Book late with an so-called LCC and you most certainly do NOT get what you pay for!
I'm not convinced that charging for every service used individually is that cost effective. Any perceived gain will to a large extent be cancelled out by the additional costs in administering and monitoring it all. All the hassle may well in time drive the revenue generating pax (i.e. late bookers) away from the LCCs and that will trigger their eventual demise.
I can live with pay-as-you-go in-flight service on short haul. For the rest, I'd like to see the industry retaining some common sense and taking stress away from air travel rather than adding to it.
I avoid the likes of Ryanair like the plague.
I'm not convinced that charging for every service used individually is that cost effective. Any perceived gain will to a large extent be cancelled out by the additional costs in administering and monitoring it all. All the hassle may well in time drive the revenue generating pax (i.e. late bookers) away from the LCCs and that will trigger their eventual demise.
I can live with pay-as-you-go in-flight service on short haul. For the rest, I'd like to see the industry retaining some common sense and taking stress away from air travel rather than adding to it.
I avoid the likes of Ryanair like the plague.
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Sorry can't agree
Arfur it all depends how important the "service" is to you - or more to the point your own personal definition of "service".
I believe, the product was to fly you to Dub and back safely and on time.
Unlike FR the service in your case will have included personal seat allocation, (probably) kiosk or online check-in options as well as human being, nice comfy leather seats, spanking new AB equipment, reasonable legroom, some recline on your seat. And in my experience friendly FAs and pilots that say hello to you with some charm.
Personally, as an intelligent adult I find I can negotiate the the lumps and bumps of the booking process without it spoiling my day, much as I don't especially enjoy it. I don't find it an automatic insult to my intelligence, that they choose to do it this way.
As a regular on EI, I really hope they don't get pulled too far into the Ryanair style nonsense - for instance, their laughable initiative to charge for online seat selection whilst simultaneously proclaiming your choice is not guaranteed!
But the product, and the service, for £65 are superb.
I believe, the product was to fly you to Dub and back safely and on time.
Unlike FR the service in your case will have included personal seat allocation, (probably) kiosk or online check-in options as well as human being, nice comfy leather seats, spanking new AB equipment, reasonable legroom, some recline on your seat. And in my experience friendly FAs and pilots that say hello to you with some charm.
Personally, as an intelligent adult I find I can negotiate the the lumps and bumps of the booking process without it spoiling my day, much as I don't especially enjoy it. I don't find it an automatic insult to my intelligence, that they choose to do it this way.
As a regular on EI, I really hope they don't get pulled too far into the Ryanair style nonsense - for instance, their laughable initiative to charge for online seat selection whilst simultaneously proclaiming your choice is not guaranteed!
But the product, and the service, for £65 are superb.
Btw Arfur, I'm 100% with you on this. Many, such as the above poster (Mr Soft), fail to comprehend what you're actually saying. At least I know I now have an ally in this hopeless battle to bring common sense back to air travel 
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SXB, I do hate this flippant often given answer, "you get what you pay for". I don't believe that's quite true. It may well apply to those who have been able to book early and benefit from the gimmick "throw-away" fares, but it does not apply to late bookers. Book late with an so-called LCC and you most certainly do NOT get what you pay for!
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Avman, I comprehend what he's saying. Well I think I do!
He is happy to pay double if the carrier just gives him a straight price. That option still exists in much of the market. For instance, BMI and KLM have a deliberately transparent strategy and give you a straight full fare at booking stage, no extras.
As it happens BMI also serve Dublin from certain UK destinations - maybe they were an option for this traveller too?
He feels conned, I put a contrary view.
He equates this approach with an insult to adult intelligence, I disagree.
I know you and he are not alone in feeling like this, and I feel like this a little bit too. If enough people feel like this, the carriers will change policy.
He is happy to pay double if the carrier just gives him a straight price. That option still exists in much of the market. For instance, BMI and KLM have a deliberately transparent strategy and give you a straight full fare at booking stage, no extras.
As it happens BMI also serve Dublin from certain UK destinations - maybe they were an option for this traveller too?
He feels conned, I put a contrary view.
He equates this approach with an insult to adult intelligence, I disagree.
I know you and he are not alone in feeling like this, and I feel like this a little bit too. If enough people feel like this, the carriers will change policy.
SXB, sure I'm well aware of that. That is not the issue. The point I was wanting to make is that the LCC fare for a late booker is not always that much lower than that of the so called legacy carriers and you get bugger all extra for it. The difference with Legacy carriers (well most anyway ) is that you get a better overall service with them. Now, by service, I don't mean Champagne, caviar, free meals, free drinks etc., but being treated as a valued CUSTOMER, an intelligent human being, and - most important of all - knowing that come hell or high water the airline will do all it can to get me to my destination as expeditiously as possible, even if it means putting me on one of their competitors' flights and/or paying for accomodation if it becomes necessary.
If I'm lucky enough to book early and fly with DIRT CHEAP AIRLINES for 5 quid, I fully accept that I "get what I pay for" (i.e. bugger all). If, however, I book late and pay 300 quid for the same flight but with no additional benefits or security (by security I refer to, for example, all reasonable efforts being made to get me to my destination should the flight be seriously delayed or cancelled) then I dispute your argument. In the days prior to LCCs cheap(er) fares were also available to early bookers (such as APEX) albeit with the Sat/Sun rule. But, regardless of the fare you paid and whatever class you travelled, you got SERVICE.
Absolutely. However, in a nutshell, in the past all parties benefitted from SERVICE. Now all parties benefit from bugger all (with LCCs).
) is that you get a better overall service with them. Now, by service, I don't mean Champagne, caviar, free meals, free drinks etc., but being treated as a valued CUSTOMER, an intelligent human being, and - most important of all - knowing that come hell or high water the airline will do all it can to get me to my destination as expeditiously as possible, even if it means putting me on one of their competitors' flights and/or paying for accomodation if it becomes necessary.If I'm lucky enough to book early and fly with DIRT CHEAP AIRLINES for 5 quid, I fully accept that I "get what I pay for" (i.e. bugger all). If, however, I book late and pay 300 quid for the same flight but with no additional benefits or security (by security I refer to, for example, all reasonable efforts being made to get me to my destination should the flight be seriously delayed or cancelled) then I dispute your argument. In the days prior to LCCs cheap(er) fares were also available to early bookers (such as APEX) albeit with the Sat/Sun rule. But, regardless of the fare you paid and whatever class you travelled, you got SERVICE.
the general principle of late bookers sudsidising early bookers is the same whether using a LCC or a legacy carrier
MrSoft,
I agree with him because I think I understand (from my own similar frustrations) in what context he uses the term. I believe, and I don't mean this unkindly, that you may be reading this in a different context to what is meant. I give the floor to Arfur.
He equates this approach with an insult to adult intelligence, I disagree.
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Not been mentioned yet?
People seem to jump at the low fares without factoring in
1. Extra cost of actually getting from the airport to the city that LCC's claim to be flying to. (E.g. Ryanair London - Frankfurt = Stansted to Hahn!)
2. Transfer time and what this is worth to you.
3. Food and drink you'll buy along the way
Combined with all the good points already raised its rare that flying low cost airlines really is more attractive.
Biggest thing for me is that Flying SHOULD be pricey!
Flying is safe due to the professionals that make it all happen (Pilots, FA's, ATC etc) Do you want your life in the hands of a pilot that gets paid less than a school teacher? (no disrespect, good teachers are extremely important to any society!) But, an FO landing 150 lives, while fighting crosswinds, in rubbish visibility, at the end of a long day where he/she knows she's getting paid hee haw?
People seem to jump at the low fares without factoring in
1. Extra cost of actually getting from the airport to the city that LCC's claim to be flying to. (E.g. Ryanair London - Frankfurt = Stansted to Hahn!)
2. Transfer time and what this is worth to you.
3. Food and drink you'll buy along the way
Combined with all the good points already raised its rare that flying low cost airlines really is more attractive.
Biggest thing for me is that Flying SHOULD be pricey!
Flying is safe due to the professionals that make it all happen (Pilots, FA's, ATC etc) Do you want your life in the hands of a pilot that gets paid less than a school teacher? (no disrespect, good teachers are extremely important to any society!) But, an FO landing 150 lives, while fighting crosswinds, in rubbish visibility, at the end of a long day where he/she knows she's getting paid hee haw?
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Avman
And very nice that is and I often pay the cost of that by paying more for the ticket upfront.
I am in support of the general mood of the thread but the current system is not going to change any time soon. Certainly not in the next 30 years. The first and last of it is money. FR pushed open the door that Freddie Laker found by changing the short haul market, rather than the long haul, and that door is not going to be closed until the oil runs out.
There are more than enough pax willing to go through the worst service to get to their destination, to offset the handful who do not wish to subject themselves to it. This market model (paying for seat res and hold baggage) is brand new and has only just begun. Soon it will be normal with only the premium cabins having the old style service. The legacy carriers will charge for bags and seats at the back and make them inclusive upfront.
I think that one should direct energies against the web sites that do not make it clear about the extras. FlyBe in particular have very poor directions about what is a chargeable bag and what is not. They spend time talking about taking 'a bag' on board for free and then charge for that bag. I am in correspondence with them about making the clear distinction between cabin bag and hold bag. FR and EZY are right up front about this, in my view.
but being treated as a valued CUSTOMER, an intelligent human being, and - most important of all - knowing that come hell or high water the airline will do all it can to get me to my destination as expeditiously as possible, even if it means putting me on one of their competitors' flights and/or paying for accommodation if it becomes necessary.
I am in support of the general mood of the thread but the current system is not going to change any time soon. Certainly not in the next 30 years. The first and last of it is money. FR pushed open the door that Freddie Laker found by changing the short haul market, rather than the long haul, and that door is not going to be closed until the oil runs out.
There are more than enough pax willing to go through the worst service to get to their destination, to offset the handful who do not wish to subject themselves to it. This market model (paying for seat res and hold baggage) is brand new and has only just begun. Soon it will be normal with only the premium cabins having the old style service. The legacy carriers will charge for bags and seats at the back and make them inclusive upfront.
I think that one should direct energies against the web sites that do not make it clear about the extras. FlyBe in particular have very poor directions about what is a chargeable bag and what is not. They spend time talking about taking 'a bag' on board for free and then charge for that bag. I am in correspondence with them about making the clear distinction between cabin bag and hold bag. FR and EZY are right up front about this, in my view.
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Fair do's Avman. pax.
I suppose what I am banging on about here, is that in this case, with this carrier, "worst service" does not apply - I believe good service has been delivered for a very good price. On a different thread, about a different carrier, I would agree with everything everyone is saying.
There are more than enough pax willing to go through the worst service to get to their destination
Certainly some of the extra charges are just way over the top. Remember how we were encouraged to book on line with a small discount if we did so? Now we have to pay for the privilege! 
Can you imagine your local supermarket adding 10 pounds to your shopping bill for choosing to shop with them? It's all just become insane.
I believe that the all-important high yield revenue generating customer (the late bookers) will eventually abandon the LCCs and return to the legacy carriers (if there are any left). This will force LCCs to rethink their product (or market model, to use PAXboy's more apt term) if they want to survive. It won't be too long before you see a two class cabin on the so-called LCCs. It already exists with one I regularly use, Brussels Airlines. The Legacy Carrier and Low Cost Carrier product will merge into what I consider Brussels Airlines to be: a Hybrid Carrier (you heard the term here first folks
).
Can you imagine your local supermarket adding 10 pounds to your shopping bill for choosing to shop with them? It's all just become insane.I believe that the all-important high yield revenue generating customer (the late bookers) will eventually abandon the LCCs and return to the legacy carriers (if there are any left). This will force LCCs to rethink their product (or market model, to use PAXboy's more apt term) if they want to survive. It won't be too long before you see a two class cabin on the so-called LCCs. It already exists with one I regularly use, Brussels Airlines. The Legacy Carrier and Low Cost Carrier product will merge into what I consider Brussels Airlines to be: a Hybrid Carrier (you heard the term here first folks
).
Last edited by Avman; 21st Mar 2008 at 16:55.