Advice Required
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Thank you both for the link to the times article, very interesting indeed.
It gives me a little hope that a wrong can be corrected, hopefully a group of celtic supporters, all sitting apart can be considered as sypmathetically as the Steel Band were, although I have a doubt.
I believe the airline, in my case, are not telling the truth. They based their reason on our group as being 'drunk' for being spotted in a drinking area inside the terminal (fast food area, serving alcohol). Funnily enough that was the complaint made by the female passenger at the final check in desk.
They seem to have based their argument on this passengers viewpoint, grossly unfair imho.
Thanks again, very interesting.
It gives me a little hope that a wrong can be corrected, hopefully a group of celtic supporters, all sitting apart can be considered as sypmathetically as the Steel Band were, although I have a doubt.
I believe the airline, in my case, are not telling the truth. They based their reason on our group as being 'drunk' for being spotted in a drinking area inside the terminal (fast food area, serving alcohol). Funnily enough that was the complaint made by the female passenger at the final check in desk.
They seem to have based their argument on this passengers viewpoint, grossly unfair imho.
Thanks again, very interesting.
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I'm content that if a decision is made not to carry a passenger, then i'll accept it.
What is not acceptable to me, is that I fully adhered to the terms and conditions of carriage as per the booking reference and as such the contract with me has been broken by the airline.
Topslide6, your solution did not work in my case, nor would it have prevented the situation from arising. A girl did not want to travel on the same flight as myself, instead of waiting on another flight, she simply came up with a performance to get rid of us all.
My solution is simply never to fly with that airline again. I've never experienced anything like that in all my years of flying.
What is not acceptable to me, is that I fully adhered to the terms and conditions of carriage as per the booking reference and as such the contract with me has been broken by the airline.
Topslide6, your solution did not work in my case, nor would it have prevented the situation from arising. A girl did not want to travel on the same flight as myself, instead of waiting on another flight, she simply came up with a performance to get rid of us all.
My solution is simply never to fly with that airline again. I've never experienced anything like that in all my years of flying.
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It seem to me as though the person you need here is "Flying Lawyer"
Do a search for his/her user name here on Pprune and refer him/her to this thread by either private message or email.
You may be asked more questions, but this is one person who really knows aviation law and procedures.
I wouldn't begin to offer advice as I wasn't at the scene. However, it is normal with the airline I work for that all the members of the group travelling together on one booking where some are being unruly would be offloaded. In addition to the fact that you are all considered accountable, there is the major inconvenience of having to offload some bags from the group, identify the ones of the people who are travelling and re-load them, causing a massive delay and inconveniencing everyone on board. Far easier just to offload the group and its baggage! Naturally, the airline would probably present this logical argument to the court as well.
Contact Flying Lawyer and see how the land lies!
Do a search for his/her user name here on Pprune and refer him/her to this thread by either private message or email.
You may be asked more questions, but this is one person who really knows aviation law and procedures.
I wouldn't begin to offer advice as I wasn't at the scene. However, it is normal with the airline I work for that all the members of the group travelling together on one booking where some are being unruly would be offloaded. In addition to the fact that you are all considered accountable, there is the major inconvenience of having to offload some bags from the group, identify the ones of the people who are travelling and re-load them, causing a massive delay and inconveniencing everyone on board. Far easier just to offload the group and its baggage! Naturally, the airline would probably present this logical argument to the court as well.
Contact Flying Lawyer and see how the land lies!
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Topslide6
From his first account, aScottishBloke states that some of the party were not drinking anyway.
What follows is pure speculation with no more information than is in this thread and 51 years on this planet.
It appears that a woman - for reasons unknown - identified a group of passengers as being unacceptable to her. It appears that her own fear of flying compelled her to find something wrong with something or someone. She appears to have picked on a social stereotype. Her first attempt back-fired and she herself was deemed as unsuitable for travel. So she redoubled her efforts and then succeeded. She might then have thought that, having removed the 'threat' her flight would proceed smoothly. Which it did! So she knows that her plan works. I suspect that this is all entirely sub-concious for her and that, when challenged, is unaware of the scale of her phobia and it's impact on others.
[end of speculation]
Therefore, locating that woman is important. Not least as she may have a history of pulling this trick. Understandably, the airline will not tell you and there is no means of tracking her down. On some routes, she may be well known! It was probably one of those times that someone needed to use a camera to record what happened but I can understand that you were all gob-smacked at what was happening.
I agree that trying to challenge the Captain's decision is pointless. It is a matter of high principle for all concerned and, I think it needs to be so. Depending upon the advice you get (and I agree with bealine that finding Flying Lawyer for even a brief read through of this thread would be helpful) then asking the carrier to review how the ground crew handled the problem - may result in some compensation and lessons learnt.
Perhaps the angle is one of polite inquiry to the carrier as to how this happened. Why the decision was made to recommend to the Captain that one pax who was complaining at loud volume should be favoured against a group that was minding it's own business ..???
Sure as eggs, they will never tell you but if you can introduce doubt into their minds, plus the clear intention to go to court (no threats - INTENT) and the attendant publicity, then you will <probably> catch their attention.
The easy solution, of course, is simply not to drink at all prior to travelling on an aircraft, then this situation would not arise.
What follows is pure speculation with no more information than is in this thread and 51 years on this planet.
It appears that a woman - for reasons unknown - identified a group of passengers as being unacceptable to her. It appears that her own fear of flying compelled her to find something wrong with something or someone. She appears to have picked on a social stereotype. Her first attempt back-fired and she herself was deemed as unsuitable for travel. So she redoubled her efforts and then succeeded. She might then have thought that, having removed the 'threat' her flight would proceed smoothly. Which it did! So she knows that her plan works. I suspect that this is all entirely sub-concious for her and that, when challenged, is unaware of the scale of her phobia and it's impact on others.
[end of speculation]
Therefore, locating that woman is important. Not least as she may have a history of pulling this trick. Understandably, the airline will not tell you and there is no means of tracking her down. On some routes, she may be well known! It was probably one of those times that someone needed to use a camera to record what happened but I can understand that you were all gob-smacked at what was happening.
I agree that trying to challenge the Captain's decision is pointless. It is a matter of high principle for all concerned and, I think it needs to be so. Depending upon the advice you get (and I agree with bealine that finding Flying Lawyer for even a brief read through of this thread would be helpful) then asking the carrier to review how the ground crew handled the problem - may result in some compensation and lessons learnt.
Perhaps the angle is one of polite inquiry to the carrier as to how this happened. Why the decision was made to recommend to the Captain that one pax who was complaining at loud volume should be favoured against a group that was minding it's own business ..???
Sure as eggs, they will never tell you but if you can introduce doubt into their minds, plus the clear intention to go to court (no threats - INTENT) and the attendant publicity, then you will <probably> catch their attention.
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I recall many years ago, probably around 1987/88 when a Captain of a UK IT operator tried to offload a group of young girls (18-21ish) as he deemed them to be inappropriatley dressed - they were wearing shorts, teeshirts (by todays standards positively 'covered'). As the Dispatcher of the flight I challenged this decision as there was no justifiable reason (his comments that they were sluts; almost naked; not properly dressed to fly on 'his' aircraft etc.) and referred the matter back to his HO Operations. They over-ruled him and the girls travelled.
I was reprimanded by my employer, demoted and taken off Dispatch duties. The Captain paid no price, he carried on as normal but made my life difficult until he swanned off into retirement.
Flight Deck have huge responsibilities but not all exercise then responsibly.
I was reprimanded by my employer, demoted and taken off Dispatch duties. The Captain paid no price, he carried on as normal but made my life difficult until he swanned off into retirement.
Flight Deck have huge responsibilities but not all exercise then responsibly.
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Yes, PyroTek, there is usually a "catch all" clause - similar to "Section 69 of the Army Act".
That having been said, in British Law you can argue against "Unfair Terms and Conditions" which can be viewed very seriously by the courts!
That having been said, in British Law you can argue against "Unfair Terms and Conditions" which can be viewed very seriously by the courts!
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Apologies if it has already been mentioned but did 'ascottishbloke' know the woman in question.?
I don't really know of any crew I work with who would go to the captain with the purpose of getting a group of passengers offloaded on another passengers say so.
Personally, considering you are all home safe and sound and it would appear you are not going to get satisfactory redress to your complaint, I would just forget it and take care who you travel with next time
I don't really know of any crew I work with who would go to the captain with the purpose of getting a group of passengers offloaded on another passengers say so.
Personally, considering you are all home safe and sound and it would appear you are not going to get satisfactory redress to your complaint, I would just forget it and take care who you travel with next time
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Thanks for the comments so far, I agree with the earlier comment that the action by the female passenger may not have intended to be the malicious sort. However the end result was 10 persons ejected from the flight.
She was denied boarding by ground staff, only an appeal to the captain for clearance enabled her to join the flight. How I wish he had put 2 + 2 together when the complaint was repeated to cabin staff. I would dread the thought that he had already made judgment prior to boarding that we were to be ejected.
I'm aware of the supreme rights of the captain, but with authority comes responsibility, and I believe he erred when discharging this duty.
A contract which is very biased in favour of one side, and with no right of appeal to the other, would hopefully be declared as unfair.
I have tried to get in touch with Flying Lawyer for any thoughts that he/she can provide, so I'll refrain from taking further action until I hear otherwise.
To Toplslide6, I can offer no reason why the Captain carried out his actions, but I do intend to get to the bottom of this. Some had a drink, but this is not a forbidden act. No criminal offence had taken place, nor based on past experiences would one have been committed, nor was a threat to carry out such actions. It was all too heavy handed I'm afraid. I'm happy to answer to anything, however all I can do is repeat my statement of events. There would be no point in me making this complaint if we even contributed a minor action towards justifcation.
I am not here to name and shame the airline, merely seeking advice. I'm not going to waste my time by taking on worthless causes, especially if I thought I was a contributory factor, however I do feel an injustice was served.
We have already booked up for the next round in approx 4 weeks, having already chosen another airline with a higher fare than the previous company. A small loss to the airline, but a principle has to be applied.
She was denied boarding by ground staff, only an appeal to the captain for clearance enabled her to join the flight. How I wish he had put 2 + 2 together when the complaint was repeated to cabin staff. I would dread the thought that he had already made judgment prior to boarding that we were to be ejected.
I'm aware of the supreme rights of the captain, but with authority comes responsibility, and I believe he erred when discharging this duty.
A contract which is very biased in favour of one side, and with no right of appeal to the other, would hopefully be declared as unfair.
I have tried to get in touch with Flying Lawyer for any thoughts that he/she can provide, so I'll refrain from taking further action until I hear otherwise.
To Toplslide6, I can offer no reason why the Captain carried out his actions, but I do intend to get to the bottom of this. Some had a drink, but this is not a forbidden act. No criminal offence had taken place, nor based on past experiences would one have been committed, nor was a threat to carry out such actions. It was all too heavy handed I'm afraid. I'm happy to answer to anything, however all I can do is repeat my statement of events. There would be no point in me making this complaint if we even contributed a minor action towards justifcation.
I am not here to name and shame the airline, merely seeking advice. I'm not going to waste my time by taking on worthless causes, especially if I thought I was a contributory factor, however I do feel an injustice was served.
We have already booked up for the next round in approx 4 weeks, having already chosen another airline with a higher fare than the previous company. A small loss to the airline, but a principle has to be applied.
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No, we had never met this women before, only becoming aware of her as we proceeded through final departure gate.
Their was nothing snobby about this female, just really agitated and having a loud argument with her 3 female friends who gave up on her and boarded the aircraft leaving her behind.
Their was nothing snobby about this female, just really agitated and having a loud argument with her 3 female friends who gave up on her and boarded the aircraft leaving her behind.
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Topslide6
Indeed, it would be - if I had said that but I did not. I said something else entirely.
Often in my life, work and social, I have seen a simple act miscontrued. The next person takes it up as given and you have Chinese Whispers. Bear in mind that crew (of all categories) are under great pressure to get the flight away on time. If they are presented with a single female that is (apparently) behaving strangely and ten Scottish men (apparently) behaving strangely - which is going to be presumed the guilty party?
When similar sorts of problems have been discussed in here before, we have heard that cabin crew will often take the problem to the Captain for resolution but the Captain must rely upon their representation of the problem. If the CC - for what ever reason - have misunderstood the situation, the Captain will start off with the wrong information.
Further, if the Captain is too busy to come out and get embroiled in a boarding dispute and decides to accept the advice of the senior CC and instruct them to do as they think best but, crucially, now with his authority ...?? This kind of misunderstanding by people under pressure can happen so easily and must happen every day.
Therefore, if the client considers themselves to be the injured party, then they must go to court. As I say, not just threaten. The airline will only respond when hard money and it's public reputation is at risk. Perhaps, not even then.
There is a hell of a lot of conjecture in what you've said, although you did say as much. The thought that this women was some sort of snob with an axe to grind seems a bit far fetched personally.
Sorry but I find it very hard to believe that a crew, and ultimately a Captain, would offload a group of passengers on the say so of another for no good reason. In fact, I find the whole idea ludicrous.
When similar sorts of problems have been discussed in here before, we have heard that cabin crew will often take the problem to the Captain for resolution but the Captain must rely upon their representation of the problem. If the CC - for what ever reason - have misunderstood the situation, the Captain will start off with the wrong information.
Further, if the Captain is too busy to come out and get embroiled in a boarding dispute and decides to accept the advice of the senior CC and instruct them to do as they think best but, crucially, now with his authority ...?? This kind of misunderstanding by people under pressure can happen so easily and must happen every day.
Therefore, if the client considers themselves to be the injured party, then they must go to court. As I say, not just threaten. The airline will only respond when hard money and it's public reputation is at risk. Perhaps, not even then.
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Sorry gillemor, it would appear you beat me too it with the article...although I don't know how I missed it. 
Do tell us aScottishBloke how you get on with any legal action you may wish to take...we would be interested to know.
Do tell us aScottishBloke how you get on with any legal action you may wish to take...we would be interested to know.
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The airline didn't make the decision, the Captain did
Apart from that, I would try a claim by one of the party in the small claims court to 'test the water'. If the airline buckles and pays up because either they can't be bothered to defend the action or because they don't want the adverse publicity then the gate is open for the others to make similar claims.
Quite frankly, I think you are on thin ice, neither I or I'm sure the Judge would be easily willing to accept that a captain would eject passengers for no good reason!
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Any a simple input from me..
That I find it extremely hard to believe that a lady just took dislike to you.. if you had done NOTHING. It sounds rediculous and I am sure your holding something back.
People don't just take dislike and risk themselves being offloaded for no reason! Maybe you didn't do anything.. but |I think it is highly likely one of the companions you were travelling with did.
And yeh.. wouldn't have though a CC would go the captain on a PAX say so WITHOUT them seeing that you were unruly.. They normally go asnd check out the PAX being companied about and then go to the captain, don't they?
So yeh.. If your not being.. please be honest about ALL the cirumstances.. otherwise you will just look like a fool in court.
If you really are being truthful then that sucks..
That I find it extremely hard to believe that a lady just took dislike to you.. if you had done NOTHING. It sounds rediculous and I am sure your holding something back.
People don't just take dislike and risk themselves being offloaded for no reason! Maybe you didn't do anything.. but |I think it is highly likely one of the companions you were travelling with did.
And yeh.. wouldn't have though a CC would go the captain on a PAX say so WITHOUT them seeing that you were unruly.. They normally go asnd check out the PAX being companied about and then go to the captain, don't they?
So yeh.. If your not being.. please be honest about ALL the cirumstances.. otherwise you will just look like a fool in court.
If you really are being truthful then that sucks..
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SpamFritters, it does happen. I had the same in various parts of London, especially if alcohol/narcotics/drugs of any kind or even just stress can do. Both male and female, don't matter what their "ethnic origin" is. It was just bad luck that ascottishguy and his group appeared then, and it would be nice to know if any of the ground staff passed on any of the "conversation" before they showed up.
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Topslide,
I'll repeat for the last time, neither I or my group did anything wrong to eject us from the flight, neither did we do anything to alarm this woman. Perhaps she had had a bad experience previously, however I would have expected the captain/cabin crew to investigate further, taking account of ground crew staff observations. Had this been carried out, then I'm confident we would have remained seated, with only the female passenger ejected.
Ironically, took less than a couple of minutes for us to be ejected, with only hand luggage, all walked off peacefully, albeit shocked and stunned. No one fancied a night or more spent in a foreign cell.
Is anyone familiar with reporting of incidents by ground staff regarding denial of boarding. Are observations recorded ? The reason I ask, is that on the following day ground staff mentioned that they had still to file a report on this matter and would be supporting my iew (of course they can only relate to the ground incident). Is there a right of access to this data ?
Co-incidentally, the captain may have just demonstrated the same ignorant characteristics that the chief executive of the airline has shown in the past.
I'll repeat for the last time, neither I or my group did anything wrong to eject us from the flight, neither did we do anything to alarm this woman. Perhaps she had had a bad experience previously, however I would have expected the captain/cabin crew to investigate further, taking account of ground crew staff observations. Had this been carried out, then I'm confident we would have remained seated, with only the female passenger ejected.
Ironically, took less than a couple of minutes for us to be ejected, with only hand luggage, all walked off peacefully, albeit shocked and stunned. No one fancied a night or more spent in a foreign cell.
Is anyone familiar with reporting of incidents by ground staff regarding denial of boarding. Are observations recorded ? The reason I ask, is that on the following day ground staff mentioned that they had still to file a report on this matter and would be supporting my iew (of course they can only relate to the ground incident). Is there a right of access to this data ?
Co-incidentally, the captain may have just demonstrated the same ignorant characteristics that the chief executive of the airline has shown in the past.
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I don't know which airline you flew with, but I've just scanned through Ryanairs Conditions of Carriage and, quite frankly, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. The conditions of carriage are worded very much in favour of the airline, so you're probably best just to forget about it this time and move on. Complain to the airline and dont spend your money with them in future is what I'd suggest.
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To satisfy my curiosity I would like to know which airline it was - you are now talking about the chief exec as though you have had previous dealings.....????
In all honesty though - just move on
In all honesty though - just move on
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Already decided not to use the airline again.
The chief exec remarks are a reflection on a public outburst by the man, discriminating against a whole nation.
The chief exec remarks are a reflection on a public outburst by the man, discriminating against a whole nation.