BAA strikes
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Perhaps I don't see the problem correctly? A bunch of people who are in a final salary pension scheme are striking because the scheme has been closed to new starters ie people who don't yet work for BAA. Messing up the travel plans of a million people won't get the public on their side - a bit like the fuel blockade
Last edited by A2QFI; 22nd Dec 2007 at 15:33.
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Do the BAA staff care whether the public are on side or not. Do the Police Force care. This has little to do with the staff as to what the general public think as I doubt the general travelling public give a toss about them other than times like now. I am sure the management of BAA PLC will resolve this before then.
Paxing All Over The World
That sounds like a fine summation A2QFI. It is probable that the staff are deeply aggrieved about a number of aspects of their employment and have chosen this topic on which to strike. If I am correct in that first supposition, then my second would be that they have chosen it as they perceive it will be heard with more sympathy by the travelling public. If they chose to strike because, say, they were not as well paid as others in the industry (such as cabin crew of one airline compared to another) then there would be less sympathy.
Either way, my last guess is that the travelling public consider strike action to be a fossil best left in the last century. The reasons for strike action not working have been enumerated a thousand times.
Either way, my last guess is that the travelling public consider strike action to be a fossil best left in the last century. The reasons for strike action not working have been enumerated a thousand times.
Thread Starter
Of course, it will never happen. But suppose instead of striking, the police, prison officers, BAA staff etc just resigned, all leaving on the same day? I can't see the employers not negotiating in those circumstances, and as far as I know, a no strikes agreement or no strikes legislation doesn't cover a resignation. And we know from the police pay problems that the government does not negotiate (and apparently has no intention of negotaiting) in good faith.
Of course, without the Labour government's rape of pension funds since coming to power, BAA probably wouldn't need to consider closing the pension fund to new members. Another complication may well be that 'closing to new members' is a forerunner to 'closing and moving to a money purchase scheme'
It certainly was in my employers pension scheme!
Of course, without the Labour government's rape of pension funds since coming to power, BAA probably wouldn't need to consider closing the pension fund to new members. Another complication may well be that 'closing to new members' is a forerunner to 'closing and moving to a money purchase scheme'
It certainly was in my employers pension scheme!
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Absolutely totally pointless strike, every UK airline that operates into BAA airfields flight staff have had the same conditions imposed upon them--new joiners are not in the final salary scheme.
BAA and their union should go--worst airfield operators ever
BAA and their union should go--worst airfield operators ever
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Perhaps I don't see the problem correctly? A bunch of people who are in a final salary pension scheme are striking because the scheme has been closed to new starters ie people who don't yet work for BAA
If at any time, the "pension pot" was to fall below the level required to pay out all the current pensioners, the administrators have to make changes.
These can involve many things such as increasing the contributions of both employees and employees, and lowering the future expected payout for current members.
If there are no new members joining the pension scheme (normally new members would have to pay in for a few years before being entitled to a pension), the money getting paid into the scheme would fall.
This would then put a bigger burden on the current members.
Only my opinion, but this could be one cause for the upset staff.
A strike may not be pointless, due to BAA having such a monopoly, and as such, any strike will have a great deal of effect.
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Can any of you guys take an educated guess at what's likely to happen with the planned strikes?
I've a LHR-CPT flight booked with Virgin on the 7th, they haven't been in contact and I'm just pondering what to do. I'm pretty flexible with timing but I don't what to go rebooking if the strike isn't going to actually happen.
I've a LHR-CPT flight booked with Virgin on the 7th, they haven't been in contact and I'm just pondering what to do. I'm pretty flexible with timing but I don't what to go rebooking if the strike isn't going to actually happen.
Paxing All Over The World
light booked with Virgin on the 7th, they haven't been in contact
The normal approach is to close the Final Salary scheme to new starters, but leave it running for existing members. That way nobody feels any issue and it gets accepted.
Given the normal turnover in companies, in maybe five years time less than half the workforce have been there for longer than that time, so the final salary employees are now in the minority. Plus the FSS pension trustees will then have to state that they are running out of funds (inevitable as there are no new employees coming along and the company will have given up and attempt to "top up" the scheme to keep it going). So the trustees can only propose to take their remaining funds and convert them into a Money Purchase scheme. And because the affected staff are now a minority in the company, those recent starts with lesser pensions will not feel at all inclined to support them.
All a plan devised by investment bank advisers in The City; you know the ones, those who when they are let go for non-performance have very different contracts which mean they have to be paid off with about 2 years' salary.
Given the normal turnover in companies, in maybe five years time less than half the workforce have been there for longer than that time, so the final salary employees are now in the minority. Plus the FSS pension trustees will then have to state that they are running out of funds (inevitable as there are no new employees coming along and the company will have given up and attempt to "top up" the scheme to keep it going). So the trustees can only propose to take their remaining funds and convert them into a Money Purchase scheme. And because the affected staff are now a minority in the company, those recent starts with lesser pensions will not feel at all inclined to support them.
All a plan devised by investment bank advisers in The City; you know the ones, those who when they are let go for non-performance have very different contracts which mean they have to be paid off with about 2 years' salary.
Paxing All Over The World
"inside information".
p.s. This just see on the website of a UK The Independent. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/thi...cle3289212.ece
Talks aimed at averting a series of new year strikes at airports including Heath-row and Gatwick ended without agreement last night. No further dates have been set for negotiations,although union officials stressed there is still time for another attempt to head off two 24-hour and one 48-hour strike in January.
Last edited by PAXboy; 28th Dec 2007 at 00:12.
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Let's be honest now, final salary pension schemes really are a thing of the past. Anyone that is currently, or has previously benefited from such a scheme should really consider themselves fortunate.
Does anyone accepting a new position in any industry REALLY expect a final salary pension as part of their remuneration package these days? I think there needs to be a reality check here.......
As for the strike, I'm no expert, but if this goes ahead as planned surely the airport would be forced to close? BAA, the airlines, the government even, cannot afford to close LHR and LGW for even one day. A bit of fog on xmas eve showed us all what can happen when a small percentage of flights are cancelled.
You're in the industry, not me. Is the above paragraph accurate?
Does anyone accepting a new position in any industry REALLY expect a final salary pension as part of their remuneration package these days? I think there needs to be a reality check here.......
As for the strike, I'm no expert, but if this goes ahead as planned surely the airport would be forced to close? BAA, the airlines, the government even, cannot afford to close LHR and LGW for even one day. A bit of fog on xmas eve showed us all what can happen when a small percentage of flights are cancelled.
You're in the industry, not me. Is the above paragraph accurate?
Thread Starter
WHBM,
Your exceedingly concise analysis does assume that the company can't in some way get its hands on a chunk of the pension fund, which is not always the case!
Interestingly, for all Lord Weinstock was vilified for sitting on cash mountains rather than investing, he apparently personally insisted that when the Stanhope Pension Trust was formed (which was responsible for GEC pensions), it was made a rule that not more than 5% of its assets could be invested in GEC or its subsidiaries, thus preventing the possibility of a Maxwell.
There is another argument here which says that a contract is not a contract if one party can change it unilaterally. In other words, how do you trust the BAA not to keep changing things, such as not even contributing to any pension scheme? Rather like the government on police pay - go to arbitration and then not accept the arbitrator's award.
Your exceedingly concise analysis does assume that the company can't in some way get its hands on a chunk of the pension fund, which is not always the case!
Interestingly, for all Lord Weinstock was vilified for sitting on cash mountains rather than investing, he apparently personally insisted that when the Stanhope Pension Trust was formed (which was responsible for GEC pensions), it was made a rule that not more than 5% of its assets could be invested in GEC or its subsidiaries, thus preventing the possibility of a Maxwell.
There is another argument here which says that a contract is not a contract if one party can change it unilaterally. In other words, how do you trust the BAA not to keep changing things, such as not even contributing to any pension scheme? Rather like the government on police pay - go to arbitration and then not accept the arbitrator's award.
Paxing All Over The World
There is a lengthy thread running on this topic in A, A & R. Although it is dealing with the nitty gritty of the dispute, it may also give some information about the strike itself.
Paxing All Over The World
First UK airport strike is halted
Union leaders have called off the first of three planned strikes that threatened to paralyse some of the UK's busiest airports next month.
continues ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7165196.stm
Union leaders have called off the first of three planned strikes that threatened to paralyse some of the UK's busiest airports next month.
continues ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7165196.stm
Why is it in Uk we deride things like final salary schemes-they were, and I was in one, a genuine benefit for a lifetime of honest endeavour. Its seems fine to say throw them out but why not throw out share options and executive packages too. Are the BAA workers more guilty of greed than the greedy stupid bank execs who leant YOUR money to people who could never repay it
I agree the BAA strike is unfortuneate -and indeed it intrudes on my own plans-but BAA are a shambles and always have been and are regulated incredibly badly. The workers there have a point and they are entitled to make their protest - if it was France or Italy or dare I say it the USA the airports would be closed for a lot longer
PB
I agree the BAA strike is unfortuneate -and indeed it intrudes on my own plans-but BAA are a shambles and always have been and are regulated incredibly badly. The workers there have a point and they are entitled to make their protest - if it was France or Italy or dare I say it the USA the airports would be closed for a lot longer
PB
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Speaking as an actuary, I can confirm that a properly funded final salary scheme is the mutt's nuts of retirement arrangements IF you expect to be working for the scheme provider for a period of at least 10 (and preferably 20) years. Forty, thirty, even twenty years ago, this was not an unreasonable assumption, but few workers are in (or would wish to be in) this position any longer.
How many folks starting work for BAA this year seriously expect to be working there in 10 years time?
How many folks starting work for BAA this year seriously expect to be working there in 10 years time?