Would you like de-ice with your flight?

[Rollingthunder]

With reference to the ongoing thread in R&N about an Iberia a/c departing Boston with contaminated surfaces.

Unfortunately some posters are more concerned about the naming of the airline and flight number rather than the issue of snow/ice contamination.

I realize most pax have no idea of the inherant hazards involved with these situations.

I have a very good memory and Air Ontario F28 crash in Dryden and Air Florida in Washington spring to mind as well as many others.

My personal view is that you do not attempt take-offs with ice or snow on the surfaces of an aircraft and if I am on one that is trying that, I am standing up, getting my carry-on and demanding to be off-loaded. No questions, get me ground stairs and a car or go back to the gate - I am getting off.

[Hartington]

In principle I'll go along with that. However, as SLF I'm not sure I'm qualified to know when deicing is required. Yes, if there's a covering of actual snow that's obvious but I remember being deiced for a LHR/GVA and being amazed how the upper surface of the wing remained covered with the gloop long after take off. The point being that the surface before and after deicing didn't look significantly different.

[PAXboy]

I agree that I cannot possibly know the situation. Even if I am anxious, as a Pax my view will be politely ignored. Unless I can SEE something wrong - missing panel - flowing liquid - flames - then it is best for me to keep quiet as I cannot contribute.

On the numerous times that I have watched the de-icing through the window, there are as many times when I have thought 'there was hardly anything there' as there were 'wow - look how much snow we collected'.

In the R&N thread, Post #56 by GMDS is pertinent:

Many moons ago a skipper of a renowned carrier travelled ID-pax on a smaller national carrier. After push-back, seeing the wing nicely covered with snow and realizing they were not deicing, he asked the hostie to tell the captain just that, identifying himself as a fellow captain. She came back reporting the PIC said the passenger should mind his own business. The skipper, as able body being seated at a emergency exit, then opened this over wing window to avoid take-off.

Outcome of the story: He got arrested and convicted for endangering flight operations.

The flight later took off deiced.

Food for thought

Equally relevant: #38 from Justinzider

I was on a later BOS-LHR service and the Iberia situation was mentioned by our ground staff. All aircraft required de-icing last night. Virgin, Aer Lingus and BA were fighting for the only available rig at the international terminal.

[tablelover]

So Rolling thunder, you would discount taking off with any snow/ice whatsoever regardless of what the manufacturers and company manuals said? Would you wish to see it measured first and see the manuals for yourself (in the meantime when proven its fine your crew are out of hours/the aircraft whilst waiting for you to be taught something that doesnt involve you has now picked up so much contaminant it really does need deicing and is now at the back of along queue and a large slot is received as a result) What amount would you allow? Would it depend on the nationality of the crew? What if in moderate snow on taxi out the aircraft picked up a slight amount?

If you aint happy trusting us professionals to do our job best you dont fly at all. Do you also comment on landings?

[Rollingthunder]

After the Dryden crash the investigation resulted in over 100 recommedations regarding contaminated airfoils. Most were adopted and if I remember correctly one was that if there was any contamination the aircraft was to be de-iced.

If I look out the window and see snow or ice on the wings and we're not de-icing - I'm getting off regardless of the consequences.

My life is worth more than any single flight.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

The Air Florida in Washington if my memory serves me,was not down to snow and ice on the wings and fuse.
Its problem was it was due to low power being used by the engines, due to incorrect EPR being indicated and if the engine intakes had been cleared and with anti-ice on, it would have made it.

[Final 3 Greens]

You have to trust the flight deck guys.

[fendant]

I would not trust the flight crew, as they can not see the actual situation or like in the Iberia case obviously choose to ignore it.
I would inform a CC member and ask him/her to relay it to the cockpit.
If they choose to ignore it again, I would start praying loudly.

I remember an ATR charter a couple of years ago carrying Ford Engineers and suppliers back from Milan to CGN after a day at the EMO machine tool show. Their plane crashed, nobody survived. The other one I remember was a Citation taking off from ZRH on RWY 34 to BRN. PIC decided against deicing in order to get into BRN before the night closure. Again no survivors.

Frank

[tablelover]

Fendant what are you talking about you wouldnt trust the flight crew?? But would relay a message to the cabin crew??

What would you do if you were then told it was in limits/in accordance with rules etc?? The issue is the average slf doesnt have the technical training to know what they are talking about with regards deicing/anti icing. Reading pprune and fliying on your ms flightsim doesnt make you a pilot or expert on the subject.

The guys/gals up front know what they are doing following tens of thousands of pounds and hours worth of training, it wasnt wasted and to assume you know better when lacking any of this is arrogant and not the way the industry works.

Trust the professionals its what they're paid and trained for. Do not tar everyone with the same brush, especially one that may not be correct!

[Lord Lardy]

I would not trust the flight crew, as they can not see the actual situation or like in the Iberia case obviously choose to ignore it.

The voice of a true professional.

I have and always will investigate a passenger query even if it is just to put them at ease. However, if one is regulated and paid to do a job, in any industry, then some element of trust in their proven ability (when I say this I mean ongoing regulatory training and examinations.) should be expected.

[BaronChotzinoff]

You have to trust the flight deck guys.

There was a crash at Birmingham UK a few years ago where a private jet carrying Massey Ferguson boss and colleagues back to the US crashed on TO about this time of year - due to not deicing the wings I believe. It certainly wasn't a freezing cold day though, and I used to work half a mile away.