Truly Disturbing passenger behaviour.
tezzer did the right thing by reporting his observations to the CC. The last and worst thing to do is for anyone to get involved in a "domestic" unless the person on the receiving end clearly asks for help. More often than not a person interfering in a domestic issue is turned on by the feuding two.
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but
from my slight experience of these incidents on the ground, there are couples who enjoy a verbal back and forth, and maybe some pushee-shovee. It sounds silly, but most abused women bounce from one abuser to another and on again, they don't seem to know any better.
Doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it's how we should all act with our partners, but I would agree with the CC that if there is no danger or massive inconvenience to the other passengers they should deal with it in a low key way. Certainly if they went gungho and diverted en-route and ran out of hours etc, then I suspect a passenger vote would overwhelming support a decision to continue on to destination!
G
Doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it's how we should all act with our partners, but I would agree with the CC that if there is no danger or massive inconvenience to the other passengers they should deal with it in a low key way. Certainly if they went gungho and diverted en-route and ran out of hours etc, then I suspect a passenger vote would overwhelming support a decision to continue on to destination!
G
Paxing All Over The World
I think that reporting to CC is all that can be done as they have the force of law to support them. If a solo pax does tackle a physically active person, then the chances are that they will be beaten and make things worse. As I understand it, CC are trained in restraint and two of them would work as a team.
Separation and restraint would be beneficial to ensure that the flight maintains it's schedule. Whilst the man was clearly in mental difficulty from medication/drugs and alcohol, as well as being overly polite to CC whilst beating his wife - the chances of a brawl in the cabin must have been high and that would have cost the carrier a lot more.
I have no doubt that CC are loath to wade in to these unusual situations as there is a high likelihood of them being hurt. But their employer pays them to keep order in the cabin for the safety of ALL on board. I am sorry if that is harsh and I realise that this is a situation that most CC will only witness once in their career, but it happened and did endanger many. I say DID because his actions were not stopped and could have resumed at any time.
It must have been horrible to witness and conveying full information to the carrier is important. I say that because, the carrier needs to know how many such events there are each year. Are these increasing? Are we training staff correctly? Etc.
Separation and restraint would be beneficial to ensure that the flight maintains it's schedule. Whilst the man was clearly in mental difficulty from medication/drugs and alcohol, as well as being overly polite to CC whilst beating his wife - the chances of a brawl in the cabin must have been high and that would have cost the carrier a lot more.
I have no doubt that CC are loath to wade in to these unusual situations as there is a high likelihood of them being hurt. But their employer pays them to keep order in the cabin for the safety of ALL on board. I am sorry if that is harsh and I realise that this is a situation that most CC will only witness once in their career, but it happened and did endanger many. I say DID because his actions were not stopped and could have resumed at any time.
It must have been horrible to witness and conveying full information to the carrier is important. I say that because, the carrier needs to know how many such events there are each year. Are these increasing? Are we training staff correctly? Etc.
Final 3 Green,
I think we are from an environment not too disimilar geographically speaking at least. The situation was bad and obviously the lady was a human being and she has the right to be free from any harassment (verbal or physical). Furthermore a threatening (sp?) behaviour from one individual to another may constitute a hazard and is bad (for lack of a better word) for other pax as well.
In the rapidly typing statement earlier I was mainly concern about the escalation issues of depreving a drunk guy from his booze and the fact that the person trying to separate two fighting individuals may be beaten up by both. Someone said it earlier. One more thing: I was thinking along the line of but of people going from one abuser to the next hence my idea about staying out of a couple's arguments and incidents. It is obvious that it is not right to insult and attack your partner.
Rwy in Sight
I think we are from an environment not too disimilar geographically speaking at least. The situation was bad and obviously the lady was a human being and she has the right to be free from any harassment (verbal or physical). Furthermore a threatening (sp?) behaviour from one individual to another may constitute a hazard and is bad (for lack of a better word) for other pax as well.
In the rapidly typing statement earlier I was mainly concern about the escalation issues of depreving a drunk guy from his booze and the fact that the person trying to separate two fighting individuals may be beaten up by both. Someone said it earlier. One more thing: I was thinking along the line of but of people going from one abuser to the next hence my idea about staying out of a couple's arguments and incidents. It is obvious that it is not right to insult and attack your partner.
Rwy in Sight
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Oh bollox to this !
As a former Customs Officer, I did many sessions in arrest and restraint techniques. I COULD have easily disabled this guy, and had him restrained.
However, it was not my place to do so. I would have been putting myself in a difficuly position, legally, by assaulting a fellow passenger, based on what I had seen and heard, in an environment where I have no legal right to do so. I may, as did the other passengers have a moral right to step in, but if it had escalated, I would have been out on a limb.
I reported it to the CC, and they chose to ignore it. Indeed, when one of the male CC witnessed one of the physical assaults, he wandered past and asked thr man if everything was OK ! "yes, fine" was his reply. How in God's name could it have been.
I have said my last on here, I will however be taking it up with EK tommorrow. Nuff said.
As a former Customs Officer, I did many sessions in arrest and restraint techniques. I COULD have easily disabled this guy, and had him restrained.
However, it was not my place to do so. I would have been putting myself in a difficuly position, legally, by assaulting a fellow passenger, based on what I had seen and heard, in an environment where I have no legal right to do so. I may, as did the other passengers have a moral right to step in, but if it had escalated, I would have been out on a limb.
I reported it to the CC, and they chose to ignore it. Indeed, when one of the male CC witnessed one of the physical assaults, he wandered past and asked thr man if everything was OK ! "yes, fine" was his reply. How in God's name could it have been.
I have said my last on here, I will however be taking it up with EK tommorrow. Nuff said.
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I don´t know UK national rules, but in Spain if that happens on board inside Spanish territory that guy is defenetely handled to spanish police, and that´s bad for him. We no longer tolerate violence against women, and laws are really tight in those cases, in no longer than 24 hours he would be in prison for a time.
Come on now Tezzer,
The last line in your 1st post:
The first line in your last post:
If you ask a question on PPRuNe what else do you expect other than a multitude of conflicting answers and opinions? 
The last line in your 1st post:
So, the quesstion is, what should they / could they have done to end this truly awful display of abuse ?
Oh bollox to this !
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Tezzer,
Mate spot on with your actions. I think to suggest that you personally should have intervened would have possibley opened up a whole can of worms. Drunken pax are more likely to respect the authority of a cabin crew member regardless of physical size or gender over a fellow pax. Citizens arrest laws are not necessarily the same in the air as they are on the ground but someone else could prove me wrong on this point. Aviation regs the world over give specific powers to aircrew but I would suggest very limited powers to pax.
Very upsetting I am sure it was but PAXboy is right when he says that the CC would need to carefully assess the situation before barging in and perhaps making things worse.
Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there.
Mate spot on with your actions. I think to suggest that you personally should have intervened would have possibley opened up a whole can of worms. Drunken pax are more likely to respect the authority of a cabin crew member regardless of physical size or gender over a fellow pax. Citizens arrest laws are not necessarily the same in the air as they are on the ground but someone else could prove me wrong on this point. Aviation regs the world over give specific powers to aircrew but I would suggest very limited powers to pax.
Very upsetting I am sure it was but PAXboy is right when he says that the CC would need to carefully assess the situation before barging in and perhaps making things worse.
Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there.
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"Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there"
I think that you are actually correct. Up front, and the further forward you go the worse it seems to be, the more obnoxious selfish and demanding seem the passengers.
Excluding me, of course !
I think that you are actually correct. Up front, and the further forward you go the worse it seems to be, the more obnoxious selfish and demanding seem the passengers.
Excluding me, of course !
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I'm actually surprised this behaviour didnt result in a visit and some stern words from the captain, with threat of restraint or divert & offload to local police...It seems a bit weak of the crew not to act in my opinion...The authorities would almost certainly intervene on the ground, had this happened in a restaurant or other public place, so why not in the air? 
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Am I mistaken here?? Assault is Assault. Did anybody (as there were many witnesses) call the police on landing?
Or is it OK for a guy to bash a woman, as it is on a plane at the time?
I cannot believe what I am reading.
Or is it OK for a guy to bash a woman, as it is on a plane at the time?
I cannot believe what I am reading.
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Originally Posted by Perkin
I'm actually surprised this behaviour didnt result in a visit and some stern words from the captain, with threat of restraint or divert & offload to local police...It seems a bit weak of the crew not to act in my opinion...The authorities would almost certainly intervene on the ground, had this happened in a restaurant or other public place, so why not in the air?
As far as "the authorities" go, the Captain has legal authority in the air and passes that on to the cabin crew inflight as and when required. Cabin Crew restraining a passenger counts as arrest, and once the captain has given permission for the crew to do so then the person has been arrested as if they were on the ground.
The question of why this crew didnt intervene is an interesting one. There is a parallel thread running in the Cabin Crew forums which is good reading, with cultural/training issues being raised (this was an EK flight).
Its also important to remember that no one here, including Tezza, is actually aware of what discussion took place amongst the cabin crew regarding this incident.
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Huh, I think people just do the BARE MINIMUM these days - Unless it is of a bonus to them
Seriously thou, i think people like the Male Pax should be 'nipped in the bud' he obviously is not bothered about what anyone else thinks??
And most of all does not think twice about giving someone GBH
I know what I would have done to him
Seriously thou, i think people like the Male Pax should be 'nipped in the bud' he obviously is not bothered about what anyone else thinks??
And most of all does not think twice about giving someone GBH
I know what I would have done to him
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sinala1
Yes, good point about having flight deck door open, or indeed possible injury to one of the flight crew, I hadnt considered that. Perhaps it would be more likely on a multi-crew flight where a 'spare' could be called upon if necesaary, but I guess this depends on how severe the incident appears to the CC...I also wasnt aware the captain could pass his full authority to the cabin crew.
I think any arrest carried out by a person with a warrant card would be equivalent to a citizens arrest on the ground, certainly in the uk, so not quite the same as being arrested by a police officer...I presume an airline captain has similar authority to a sea captain in this respect?
I was also going to suggest that cultural differences may have played a part in this instance...
I think any arrest carried out by a person with a warrant card would be equivalent to a citizens arrest on the ground, certainly in the uk, so not quite the same as being arrested by a police officer...I presume an airline captain has similar authority to a sea captain in this respect?
I was also going to suggest that cultural differences may have played a part in this instance...
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what happened was wrong, but it happens all the time and its the way some relationships operate. It's a bit like saying I like pork so everybody has to eat pork. Well no. You don't have a bit of pushee-shovee with your wife so don't reckon anybody else, but some places are more expressive.
I betcha 90% of the people on pprune are button down sulkers that when they don't get their own go quiet and grunt for 2 days like a child. Whereas I've seen "expressive" people that have a huge drama and a minor punchup and 10 minutes later are all lovey-dovey again. Horses for courses.
G
I betcha 90% of the people on pprune are button down sulkers that when they don't get their own go quiet and grunt for 2 days like a child. Whereas I've seen "expressive" people that have a huge drama and a minor punchup and 10 minutes later are all lovey-dovey again. Horses for courses.
G
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Originally Posted by groundbum
the people on pprune are button down sulkers that when they don't get their own go quiet and grunt for 2 days like a child. Whereas I've seen "expressive" people that have a huge drama and a minor punchup and 10 minutes later are all lovey-dovey again. Horses for courses
Don't forget that onboard an aircraft its an offence to commit a violent act - lovers tiff or not. Do not pass go, do not collect £200, no correspondance will be entered into.
I won't even discuss your agreeance with violence as a means of conflict resolution, especially against a female
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nope, don't condone it. But on the assumption that any story teller exaggerates by 50%, and any poster to a bulletin board by another 50%, then I bet the incident wasn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be. In the end all BB posters are like journalists and exaggerate otherwise it's not exciting. I note the original poster didn't say any other passengers also got up to complain or got involved. Soooo.
In the end you have to go by results, not effort. If the CC had gone straight to lockdown then (a) the plane diverts and all pax lose a day/4hours of their life (x200 pax) in a terminal not expecting them at all (b) the police do lots of paperwork and interview the crew etc (c) the next day the couple are back on the streets of nowhereville and back together! oh and (d) there might well have been a fracas in the cabin during the lockdown. She would probably have been helping him resist.
So, tezzer felt uncomfortable for a while, 200 people got where they wanted to be on time, the squabbly couple kept squabbling and will for another 20 years, I would say good result given the hand dealt! If she chooses to stay with an abusive partner then that is her call!
G
In the end you have to go by results, not effort. If the CC had gone straight to lockdown then (a) the plane diverts and all pax lose a day/4hours of their life (x200 pax) in a terminal not expecting them at all (b) the police do lots of paperwork and interview the crew etc (c) the next day the couple are back on the streets of nowhereville and back together! oh and (d) there might well have been a fracas in the cabin during the lockdown. She would probably have been helping him resist.
So, tezzer felt uncomfortable for a while, 200 people got where they wanted to be on time, the squabbly couple kept squabbling and will for another 20 years, I would say good result given the hand dealt! If she chooses to stay with an abusive partner then that is her call!
G
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Actually groundbum, your right. I didn't see any other passengers get up and take a lead, correct. What I DID see, with no embelishment whatsoever was a man and a woman having a long and extended argument, which involved him lashing out at her on at least 5 occasions.
It was discussed as we tool the long walk from gate 202 back to immigration, and reffered to as "the floor show" by the young couple sat directly behind the warring factions. They were of the opinion that SHE was giving him back as much as he was dishing out.
Now, I am a firm beleiver that there are 2 sides to every story. She was drinking heavily too. They both took pills of some description. I could here his tirade of frankly disgusting comments to her, but I couldn't hear what, if anything she was saying, apart from when she shouted at him to either leave her alone, or to stop hiiting her / spitting in her face.
Perhaps they were both in the wrong ? That still does not excuse him hitting her, if he was perchance the victim, HE should have got up and walked away and found another seat. But, it was her who tried to re-locate, and him who lost his temper again, threw his empty glasses to he floor, and dragged her bodily back to her seat.
It was discussed as we tool the long walk from gate 202 back to immigration, and reffered to as "the floor show" by the young couple sat directly behind the warring factions. They were of the opinion that SHE was giving him back as much as he was dishing out.
Now, I am a firm beleiver that there are 2 sides to every story. She was drinking heavily too. They both took pills of some description. I could here his tirade of frankly disgusting comments to her, but I couldn't hear what, if anything she was saying, apart from when she shouted at him to either leave her alone, or to stop hiiting her / spitting in her face.
Perhaps they were both in the wrong ? That still does not excuse him hitting her, if he was perchance the victim, HE should have got up and walked away and found another seat. But, it was her who tried to re-locate, and him who lost his temper again, threw his empty glasses to he floor, and dragged her bodily back to her seat.
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No one has stated, or asked what flag the aircraft was under.
In our culture, assault is assault and carries criminal charges regardless of whether or not the victim is known to the attacker or not.
In strict Muslim cultures where Sharia Law is practised, the woman is treated as inferior to the man and is expected to tolerate beating from her husband, father or brother if she does not obey their wishes!
Could this, perhaps, be the reason why the crew took no action?
In our culture, assault is assault and carries criminal charges regardless of whether or not the victim is known to the attacker or not.
In strict Muslim cultures where Sharia Law is practised, the woman is treated as inferior to the man and is expected to tolerate beating from her husband, father or brother if she does not obey their wishes!
Could this, perhaps, be the reason why the crew took no action?