Mobile phone use in flight
Cyrano,
You beat me to it with that reference! The article is pretty definite that they see problems.
There's another thread on Pprune about A300 rudders and the effects of old age. There are those who question the effects of age on the immunity of aircraft systems, as moisture gets into connectors, cables move and abrade and so on. So a nice new aircraft may well be very different to an ten year old one. A good example of a lack of EMC immunity is the Tornado - a friend who flew tankers told me they have to wind the power down to less than a mobile 'phone.
The European Telecommunication Standards Institute and the Electronic Communications Committee of the European Conference on Posts and Telecommunications are looking at cellular pico cells in aircraft. An interesting problem is that the jammer proposed may well kill off the bottom few channels of DME: Airbus apparently don't see this as a problem, presumably because it's easier to sell 'planes to customers who can make money by selling telephone service on board......
Funnily enough, most of the engineers at these meetings travel enough that the thought of "I'm on the 'plane" occurring really wants them to see the project fail!
You beat me to it with that reference! The article is pretty definite that they see problems.
There's another thread on Pprune about A300 rudders and the effects of old age. There are those who question the effects of age on the immunity of aircraft systems, as moisture gets into connectors, cables move and abrade and so on. So a nice new aircraft may well be very different to an ten year old one. A good example of a lack of EMC immunity is the Tornado - a friend who flew tankers told me they have to wind the power down to less than a mobile 'phone.
The European Telecommunication Standards Institute and the Electronic Communications Committee of the European Conference on Posts and Telecommunications are looking at cellular pico cells in aircraft. An interesting problem is that the jammer proposed may well kill off the bottom few channels of DME: Airbus apparently don't see this as a problem, presumably because it's easier to sell 'planes to customers who can make money by selling telephone service on board......
Funnily enough, most of the engineers at these meetings travel enough that the thought of "I'm on the 'plane" occurring really wants them to see the project fail!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'll go and ask the Captain
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paddyjunk
No bmi have not started their trials yet, later in the year or early next. It is being done on two 320's so that will make it interesting for regular pax who will try it on other a/c.
Personally I hate the idea of phones used in flight. Most people tend to forget they are talking to someone miles away on a phone and revert to shouting the distance. Whoever you are, you are not that important enough to disturb anyone in earshot with your one way conversation.
6
No bmi have not started their trials yet, later in the year or early next. It is being done on two 320's so that will make it interesting for regular pax who will try it on other a/c.
Personally I hate the idea of phones used in flight. Most people tend to forget they are talking to someone miles away on a phone and revert to shouting the distance. Whoever you are, you are not that important enough to disturb anyone in earshot with your one way conversation.
6
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: third rock from the sun
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can always fly with Netjets....on board phone use is free of extra charge 
But for all those that still think the mobile phone off business is a way of making an extra buck:
- We conducted test with a mobile phone next to the fire detector in a bagage compartment. As soon as we called the phone, the fire detection system came alive and fire warnings were flashing in the cockpit. Procedure for this is an emergency descent and immediate landing, since we had no fire extinguishers there. Not a pleasant way to interrupt your flight I can assure you!
- You know that sound you hear when your phone is close to a stereo set on the speakers. That is the same we here on our communication with Air Traffic Control if somebody uses a phone close by the cockpit. Not pleasant if you try to somebody on the radio.
- Apart from these personnal experiences there are many other facts available today which prove that phones and planes donīt mix. Fact of the matter is we are so addicted to our phones today. Itīs almost like the smoker who tries to have a quick drag in the toilet (thatīs actually coming from a smoker who can just control himself a bit more). Nowadays I just leave my phone off for the whole workday including the turn-arounds (I do get my sigaret in between though, hehehe), because I just forget to turn them off otherwise and get reminded by that nice noise on the radio. It is a liberating feeling to be unreachable the whole day, you should all try it!
Btw, the reason your phone does not work in flight is because of the speed and altitude. The signal to the ground based stations gets confused. The only usable phone is a satelite phone. Your phone does however start to be usable again when we get stabalizer on final approach close to the ground. That is a bad time to find out about the effects of it on the navigation. Do you want to try it out, I sure as heck donīt! Cheers
But for all those that still think the mobile phone off business is a way of making an extra buck:
- We conducted test with a mobile phone next to the fire detector in a bagage compartment. As soon as we called the phone, the fire detection system came alive and fire warnings were flashing in the cockpit. Procedure for this is an emergency descent and immediate landing, since we had no fire extinguishers there. Not a pleasant way to interrupt your flight I can assure you!
- You know that sound you hear when your phone is close to a stereo set on the speakers. That is the same we here on our communication with Air Traffic Control if somebody uses a phone close by the cockpit. Not pleasant if you try to somebody on the radio.
- Apart from these personnal experiences there are many other facts available today which prove that phones and planes donīt mix. Fact of the matter is we are so addicted to our phones today. Itīs almost like the smoker who tries to have a quick drag in the toilet (thatīs actually coming from a smoker who can just control himself a bit more). Nowadays I just leave my phone off for the whole workday including the turn-arounds (I do get my sigaret in between though, hehehe), because I just forget to turn them off otherwise and get reminded by that nice noise on the radio. It is a liberating feeling to be unreachable the whole day, you should all try it!
Btw, the reason your phone does not work in flight is because of the speed and altitude. The signal to the ground based stations gets confused. The only usable phone is a satelite phone. Your phone does however start to be usable again when we get stabalizer on final approach close to the ground. That is a bad time to find out about the effects of it on the navigation. Do you want to try it out, I sure as heck donīt! Cheers
Fortuna,
You can bet your bottom dollar that once they find a way of providing cellular service on board, the airline will want a share of the 'phone charges.
Which is why I'm pretty convinced that Airbus apparently see no problem if the bottom few DME channels can't be used, because the extra income the airline will get by having a cell phone service will make the Airbus more attractive than a Boeing.....
I'm not really cynical......much.
You can bet your bottom dollar that once they find a way of providing cellular service on board, the airline will want a share of the 'phone charges.
Which is why I'm pretty convinced that Airbus apparently see no problem if the bottom few DME channels can't be used, because the extra income the airline will get by having a cell phone service will make the Airbus more attractive than a Boeing.....
I'm not really cynical......much.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a liberating feeling to be unreachable the whole day, you should all try it!
To eliminate the risk, you'd have to screen all baggage and travellers for active mobiles, which is not difficult but costly and time consuming. I'm waiting for the first on-board cell to fail and see what happens as umpteen mobiles all try to contact the next nearest base station 35,000 feet below ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cells and navx
I've experienced only once a problem on a MD83 during approach. We were close to 10000 when we've start hearing the clicking noise of a cell phone on the radio and at the same time FO's horizon was going nuts and went 45 degres bank 10 degres up totally frozen. Captain's side was normal. After 20 seconds we've made a PAX announcement and told that our instrumentation was disturbed by a cell phone and that all cells should remain off. The clicking noise of the cell phone in the radio stopped a couple of seconds later and FO's instrument resumed normal operation.
There seems to me (in my professional capacity as a radio engineer) that there are far too many reports where there is at least an apparent connection between mobile 'phone use and instrumentation/communication problems for the matter to be discounted.
Arguably, aircraft systems should be more immune than they apparently are, but until such time as it can be shown that using lots of 'phones on board doesn't cause difficulties, I, for one, want them all OFF!
Arguably, aircraft systems should be more immune than they apparently are, but until such time as it can be shown that using lots of 'phones on board doesn't cause difficulties, I, for one, want them all OFF!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
radeng, I don't know if your radio engineering covers mobile phones but, if so, can you (or any other visiting expert) tell me what will happen when we have on-board pico-cells and the cell suffers a breakdown? AFAIK there's no mechanism to disable the automatic function whereby all the mobiles on board will systematically boost their signal in an effort to contact another base station (35000 feet below). What is that likely to do to the instruments?!
Too mean to buy a long personal title
I'd also be interested in this question. From first principles, I'd be comforted by the knowledge that an on-board picocell would be made to fail-safe, so that even if the main functions failed, there would still be a backup that ensured that all the onboard phones remained captured to the picocell and that they didn't suddenly pump up to maximum power.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Xeque]IMHO
Frankly, I believe that to ban cell phones in flight is to lessen the possibility of air rage amongst those unfortunates crammed into their 17 x 32 inch boxes in the money earning section of the aircraft.
QUOTE]
Think you'll find those in the money earning sections have a bit more room - full service carriers make their money up front, not in the cheap seats...
Frankly, I believe that to ban cell phones in flight is to lessen the possibility of air rage amongst those unfortunates crammed into their 17 x 32 inch boxes in the money earning section of the aircraft.
QUOTE]
Think you'll find those in the money earning sections have a bit more room - full service carriers make their money up front, not in the cheap seats...
Currently, the plan appears to be have a 'jammer' that prevents the cellphone receiving a base station other than the pico cell. Some of us question how a jammer is going to jam the top 900MHz GSM channel and not the adjacent DME channel, but we do know Airbus don't think it a problem, although the German authorities are questioning all this.
As far as failure mode of the pico cell and the results are concerned, I don't believe that has been considered. This is very much an area where the 'telecom' people are only concerning themselves with the technicalities of the mobile 'phone communications, and are relying on the aircraft people such as ICAO, the aircraft manufacturers and so on to come up with the necessary immunity requirements and so forth to protect the aircraft systems.
I read somewhere a suggestion that airlines are looking to charge extra for aisle and window seats - maybe they'll be able to charge extra for having seats with no mobile phone service around them!
As far as failure mode of the pico cell and the results are concerned, I don't believe that has been considered. This is very much an area where the 'telecom' people are only concerning themselves with the technicalities of the mobile 'phone communications, and are relying on the aircraft people such as ICAO, the aircraft manufacturers and so on to come up with the necessary immunity requirements and so forth to protect the aircraft systems.
I read somewhere a suggestion that airlines are looking to charge extra for aisle and window seats - maybe they'll be able to charge extra for having seats with no mobile phone service around them!
