Low cost and recent incidents!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: over the hill
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Anyone who thinks the loco model has not impacted on the level of measures to reduce risk that airlines can make is living in cloud cuckoo land. Even at national carriers sim times are cut to the bone, parts are hard to get as inventories are cut, and training itself is cut to the barest minimum. And STILL airlines in most part can not make an acceptable return on capital.
Equally, anyone who thinks that becuase all airlines are approved by a national authority they all pursue the same level of risk reduction measures is being either wildly or deliberately over-optimistic.
The life is being sucked out of the whole airline business and it is a value destroyer not a value creator.
Expect more terrible accidents at the periphery and more angst about the state of the industry.
For an example of what I am referring to look at the terrible accident to Valuejet in the Florida Everglades as but one case.
There is nothing good to look forward to in the airline business.
Equally, anyone who thinks that becuase all airlines are approved by a national authority they all pursue the same level of risk reduction measures is being either wildly or deliberately over-optimistic.
The life is being sucked out of the whole airline business and it is a value destroyer not a value creator.
Expect more terrible accidents at the periphery and more angst about the state of the industry.
For an example of what I am referring to look at the terrible accident to Valuejet in the Florida Everglades as but one case.
There is nothing good to look forward to in the airline business.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Newbury, UK
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Where does safety stand in such a competetive enviroment?
Firstly, aircrew may be bloody-minded, stupid or just plain conceited in some cases, but very few are suicidal and therefore unlikely to fly in an aircraft that is not in a safe state.
Secondly, having your airline's aircraft continually falling out of the sky is not good marketing. You tend to sell more tickets if your reputation includes keeping the aircraft in the air between airports.
Thirdly, poor maintenance (and by extrapolation poor safety) causes delays which do not add to your positive marketing image. If you doubt this look at any of the Florida holiday threads that slag off TCD - always complaints about customer services and tech. delays, but no complaints about safety.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Downtown
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Sabre 60 - I did not mean to cause offence. I am not discouraging debate about the issues you have raised. I am only saying that given the fact that the media are quoting posts from PPRuNe, and the average pax isn't going to necessarily examine the minute details of airline ops, but will "prick their ears up" at the mention of safety, as professionals we should exercise caution when starting threads that may ( to the non professional ) suggest that Low Cost always = Unsafe.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
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quote:
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Anyone who thinks the loco model has not impacted on the level of measures to reduce risk that airlines can make is living in cloud cuckoo land. Even at national carriers sim times are cut to the bone, parts are hard to get as inventories are cut, and training itself is cut to the barest minimum. And STILL airlines in most part can not make an acceptable return on capital.
Equally, anyone who thinks that becuase all airlines are approved by a national authority they all pursue the same level of risk reduction measures is being either wildly or deliberately over-optimistic.
The life is being sucked out of the whole airline business and it is a value destroyer not a value creator.
Expect more terrible accidents at the periphery and more angst about the state of the industry.
There is nothing good to look forward to in the airline business.
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The number of accidents against the number of aircraft in the air and the numbers of people injured and killed reduced to the lowest ever levels any way one wishes to measure it last year.
As to value being sucked out of the airline industry - I believe it was Warren Buffet who worked through the stars to show that adding up all the profits and losses throughout aviation history pretty much adds up to a big fat zero. There never was any value.
As to nothing to look forward to?. Well the huge increases in PAX flying to destinations on a regularity that was never available before suggest otherwise as does the huge increases in employment within the industry.
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Anyone who thinks the loco model has not impacted on the level of measures to reduce risk that airlines can make is living in cloud cuckoo land. Even at national carriers sim times are cut to the bone, parts are hard to get as inventories are cut, and training itself is cut to the barest minimum. And STILL airlines in most part can not make an acceptable return on capital.
Equally, anyone who thinks that becuase all airlines are approved by a national authority they all pursue the same level of risk reduction measures is being either wildly or deliberately over-optimistic.
The life is being sucked out of the whole airline business and it is a value destroyer not a value creator.
Expect more terrible accidents at the periphery and more angst about the state of the industry.
There is nothing good to look forward to in the airline business.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The number of accidents against the number of aircraft in the air and the numbers of people injured and killed reduced to the lowest ever levels any way one wishes to measure it last year.
As to value being sucked out of the airline industry - I believe it was Warren Buffet who worked through the stars to show that adding up all the profits and losses throughout aviation history pretty much adds up to a big fat zero. There never was any value.
As to nothing to look forward to?. Well the huge increases in PAX flying to destinations on a regularity that was never available before suggest otherwise as does the huge increases in employment within the industry.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northumberland N55 W02
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>is it really that safe to have lots of aeroplanes flying so close to one another, so close to large crowds?
Some of the most exciting air displays that I've watched have been 'airliners' (admittedly unladen) being thrown around . I believe there's a Netherlands pilot who displayed an F27, but I've also seen many others (including what is now called a Nimrod) showing their climbing ability and tight-turn handling. Superb! In contrast the Tricolori were tame . . .
Some of the most exciting air displays that I've watched have been 'airliners' (admittedly unladen) being thrown around . I believe there's a Netherlands pilot who displayed an F27, but I've also seen many others (including what is now called a Nimrod) showing their climbing ability and tight-turn handling. Superb! In contrast the Tricolori were tame . . .
Graham, the comment was tounge in cheek, check Mr ILS' posting history and you will see a definite pattern, he also holds a licence for a MB! 
With his opening questions in my opinion he is clearly trawling......
I recall vividly the Dutch F27, having seen the display myself. The Tricolori were spectacular too, until Ramstein.....
With his opening questions in my opinion he is clearly trawling......I recall vividly the Dutch F27, having seen the display myself. The Tricolori were spectacular too, until Ramstein.....
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
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"Have the introduction of the LoCo model reduced the general safety in our industry because of less down time on our aircraft, increased working hours for the crew, more pressure on the crew, worse working conditions, poorer relations between crew and management, and in some cases, a rather foggy relationship between the airlines and the overseeing authorities:
YES!"
Less down time?.................almost all of EJ and RYANAIR aircraft are on the ground overnight, giving ample time for maintenance. Most of BA's or any other long-haul carriers aircraft fly on an almost continuous basis between checks. So wrong on that one.
Increased working hours?.............Flight and duty hours at EJ are exactly the same as any other airline in UK, including BA. So wrong again.
More pressure on the crew?.....................How do you quantify pressure? Oh to be at BA right now with all those hungry pax!
worse working conditions?..................my cockpit is pretty much the nicest place to work I can imagine!
poorer relations?.........................again, how do you quantify and justify such a statement. When you've been in the industry as long as I have, you will see that nothing much changes in the long term. The cheese board has gone but so what?
How many times will some ill informed and sensation seeking poster begin yet another thread asking the same dumb question?
Low Cost =Low safety................absolute rubbish.
YES!"
Less down time?.................almost all of EJ and RYANAIR aircraft are on the ground overnight, giving ample time for maintenance. Most of BA's or any other long-haul carriers aircraft fly on an almost continuous basis between checks. So wrong on that one.
Increased working hours?.............Flight and duty hours at EJ are exactly the same as any other airline in UK, including BA. So wrong again.
More pressure on the crew?.....................How do you quantify pressure? Oh to be at BA right now with all those hungry pax!
worse working conditions?..................my cockpit is pretty much the nicest place to work I can imagine!
poorer relations?.........................again, how do you quantify and justify such a statement. When you've been in the industry as long as I have, you will see that nothing much changes in the long term. The cheese board has gone but so what?
How many times will some ill informed and sensation seeking poster begin yet another thread asking the same dumb question?
Low Cost =Low safety................absolute rubbish.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: PARIS, France
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From AFP wire service. August 25th.
NICOSIA, Aug 25, 2005 (AFP) - The Cypriot civil aviation authority failed to carry out mandatory airworthiness checks on Cypriot-registered aircraft for 10 months, a senior manager charged Thursday, in a new blow for public trust in air safety.
The accusation, less than two weeks after a Cypriot airliner crashed outside Athens with the loss of all 121 people on board, sparked a furore with one leading politician demanding "drastic" action to restore faith in the island's aviation industry.
Air transport licensing chief Charalambos Hadjigeorgiou made his allegations in an interview with public radio and said he was speaking out at the risk of losing his job because of his concern after the August 14 crash.
"It was said that all the checks were conducted as they should have been, well I'm here to confirm that for the past 10 months no such flight checks were carried out," Hadjigeorgiou said.
"What this means in relation to the accident is up to the Greek investigators."
Late in the day, the communications ministry put out a statement saying that Hadjigeorgiou's comments were "misleading" and promising a fuller rebuttal by Minister Haris Thrassou on Friday.
"The facts as presented by Mr Hadjigeorgiou create misleading impressions over the whole issue and particularly over the possible causes of the accident," the statement said.
Attorney General Petros Clerides is expected to invite Hadjigeorgiou to testify and provide any documentary evidence he has to substantiate his accusations.
Civil aviation sources questioned whether Hadjigeorgiou meant the civil aviation authority had carried out no checks at all, even engineering checks on the ground, or just that there had no supervised checks in-flight.
Hadjigeorgiou -- who is not responsible for airline safety -- charged that the civil aviation authority had failed to carry out the checks despite billing the airlines for the costs of doing so.
Helios Airways, the island's sole private carrier which operated the Boeing 737 involved in the Greece crash, had paid 64,800 Cypus pounds (138,000 dollars) for the checks valid from April 1, 2004 through March 31, 2005.
State owned flag carrier Cyprus Airways had paid 90,900 Cyprus pounds (193,600 dollars) for the checks and its charter arm, Eurocypria, 49,800 Cyprus pounds (106,000 dollars).
"Why this didn't happen, you will have to ask the (communications) ministry and civil aviation for the answer," Hadjigeorgiou said, hitting out at successive Cypriot governments for "hoodwinking" European experts over the authority's shortcomings.
"I consider it an insult that after a long but failed struggle to upgrade the civil aviation department that we hear disinformation and blame coming from official lips," he said.
Hadjigeorgiou's comments sparked a politial storm with many MPs demanding an independent investigation into how civil aviation was being managed.
"This is a shock and after these comments I expect drastic decisions to be taken concerning civil aviation and personnel responsible for flight checks and administrative action," said Yiannakis Omirou, leader of the socialist EDEK party, a junior partner in the governing coalition.
The head of the Greek crash investigation team, Akrivos Tsolakis, is expected in Cyprus next Monday to interview Cypriots officials and airline staff over the Helios disaster.
Two EU experts are on the island to assist with the Cypriot end of investigations at the request of the Cyprus government.
Government officials said they were looking into a report by French newspaper Le Monde which suggested Cyprus was one of 30 countries on an international civil aviation blacklist for not meeting required safety standards.
A Cypriot police investigation is being carried out into Helios to ascertain if the airline was negligent in any way for what happened to flight 522 from Larnaca to Prague via Athens.
The crash was the worst aviation disaster to befall Cyprus or Greece. Those killed were almost all nationals of the island, a close-knit community of less than one million people."
Could it be that an envelope slipped to the people supposed to sign the paperwork comes cheaper than a REAL airworthiness check?
In some countries, the word "corruption" is a familiar one. Remember that..
NICOSIA, Aug 25, 2005 (AFP) - The Cypriot civil aviation authority failed to carry out mandatory airworthiness checks on Cypriot-registered aircraft for 10 months, a senior manager charged Thursday, in a new blow for public trust in air safety.
The accusation, less than two weeks after a Cypriot airliner crashed outside Athens with the loss of all 121 people on board, sparked a furore with one leading politician demanding "drastic" action to restore faith in the island's aviation industry.
Air transport licensing chief Charalambos Hadjigeorgiou made his allegations in an interview with public radio and said he was speaking out at the risk of losing his job because of his concern after the August 14 crash.
"It was said that all the checks were conducted as they should have been, well I'm here to confirm that for the past 10 months no such flight checks were carried out," Hadjigeorgiou said.
"What this means in relation to the accident is up to the Greek investigators."
Late in the day, the communications ministry put out a statement saying that Hadjigeorgiou's comments were "misleading" and promising a fuller rebuttal by Minister Haris Thrassou on Friday.
"The facts as presented by Mr Hadjigeorgiou create misleading impressions over the whole issue and particularly over the possible causes of the accident," the statement said.
Attorney General Petros Clerides is expected to invite Hadjigeorgiou to testify and provide any documentary evidence he has to substantiate his accusations.
Civil aviation sources questioned whether Hadjigeorgiou meant the civil aviation authority had carried out no checks at all, even engineering checks on the ground, or just that there had no supervised checks in-flight.
Hadjigeorgiou -- who is not responsible for airline safety -- charged that the civil aviation authority had failed to carry out the checks despite billing the airlines for the costs of doing so.
Helios Airways, the island's sole private carrier which operated the Boeing 737 involved in the Greece crash, had paid 64,800 Cypus pounds (138,000 dollars) for the checks valid from April 1, 2004 through March 31, 2005.
State owned flag carrier Cyprus Airways had paid 90,900 Cyprus pounds (193,600 dollars) for the checks and its charter arm, Eurocypria, 49,800 Cyprus pounds (106,000 dollars).
"Why this didn't happen, you will have to ask the (communications) ministry and civil aviation for the answer," Hadjigeorgiou said, hitting out at successive Cypriot governments for "hoodwinking" European experts over the authority's shortcomings.
"I consider it an insult that after a long but failed struggle to upgrade the civil aviation department that we hear disinformation and blame coming from official lips," he said.
Hadjigeorgiou's comments sparked a politial storm with many MPs demanding an independent investigation into how civil aviation was being managed.
"This is a shock and after these comments I expect drastic decisions to be taken concerning civil aviation and personnel responsible for flight checks and administrative action," said Yiannakis Omirou, leader of the socialist EDEK party, a junior partner in the governing coalition.
The head of the Greek crash investigation team, Akrivos Tsolakis, is expected in Cyprus next Monday to interview Cypriots officials and airline staff over the Helios disaster.
Two EU experts are on the island to assist with the Cypriot end of investigations at the request of the Cyprus government.
Government officials said they were looking into a report by French newspaper Le Monde which suggested Cyprus was one of 30 countries on an international civil aviation blacklist for not meeting required safety standards.
A Cypriot police investigation is being carried out into Helios to ascertain if the airline was negligent in any way for what happened to flight 522 from Larnaca to Prague via Athens.
The crash was the worst aviation disaster to befall Cyprus or Greece. Those killed were almost all nationals of the island, a close-knit community of less than one million people."
Could it be that an envelope slipped to the people supposed to sign the paperwork comes cheaper than a REAL airworthiness check?
In some countries, the word "corruption" is a familiar one. Remember that..
