BA Moscow London
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BA Moscow London
I am trying to establish if this route is Europe or World.
I have used it twice recently, both times in Club.
The seat pitch appeared to be rather small. A 757/767 not certain. But very disapointed at the leg room, and also the elbow room, but in future I will try for the centre 2 seats, as these at least have a little extra space.
All in all a very disapointing service.
Bumz
I have used it twice recently, both times in Club.
The seat pitch appeared to be rather small. A 757/767 not certain. But very disapointed at the leg room, and also the elbow room, but in future I will try for the centre 2 seats, as these at least have a little extra space.
All in all a very disapointing service.
Bumz
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Moscow is indeed European.
The centre seats are the best on the 767. The window pairs have barely any width bonus over economy at all.
DME flight are, almost without exception, fairly miserable. Club loads are high and as such the person effect that the cabin crew try to give wears off.
The centre seats are the best on the 767. The window pairs have barely any width bonus over economy at all.
DME flight are, almost without exception, fairly miserable. Club loads are high and as such the person effect that the cabin crew try to give wears off.
It's a Europe config aircraft. If it was World there would be either a First Class section or flat beds in club.
The catering on the Russian routes is however much better than on most Euro routes, especially in Y where hot meals continue. There is also IFE to Moscow unlike other Euro routes and, although it's not advertised to LED, if one of the most recent A320s with IFE fitted is used (which is usually the case) and the video has been left on board then the FAs will often play it.
The convertible C seats in the Euro 767s are indeed disappointing. They change from 2-3-2 in Y to 2-2-2 in C, which as you can probably calculate doesn't give much extra. Best bet is to go on the second DME flight which uses an A320, not a 767, and get a C seat on the left-hand side.
The catering on the Russian routes is however much better than on most Euro routes, especially in Y where hot meals continue. There is also IFE to Moscow unlike other Euro routes and, although it's not advertised to LED, if one of the most recent A320s with IFE fitted is used (which is usually the case) and the video has been left on board then the FAs will often play it.
The convertible C seats in the Euro 767s are indeed disappointing. They change from 2-3-2 in Y to 2-2-2 in C, which as you can probably calculate doesn't give much extra. Best bet is to go on the second DME flight which uses an A320, not a 767, and get a C seat on the left-hand side.
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thanks very much
WHBM: I was not aware the second flight was a bus...I beleived I was on the second flight, and it was not a bus,but I will check out C LHS...I asume the extra gap exists.
Both flights x DVO, row 2B and 3B. 2 had even worse leg room, being a bulkhead. One from LHR, can not remember seat but LHS again.
Wannabe Flyboy: there is no reference to world/ european on the web site. 4h30 published times..... on the edge of the world...
Apaddyinuk: for the price difference I would expect a seat that reflects the difference.
On the 767 in Club, the Overhead IFE was crap.....the pictures were so colour saturated that they were unviewable, the quality of the tape was unacceptable. (like tracking errors.).
Lastly, and not BA fault was the two kids behind me, with big feet.......
Bumz
Both flights x DVO, row 2B and 3B. 2 had even worse leg room, being a bulkhead. One from LHR, can not remember seat but LHS again.
Wannabe Flyboy: there is no reference to world/ european on the web site. 4h30 published times..... on the edge of the world...
Apaddyinuk: for the price difference I would expect a seat that reflects the difference.
On the 767 in Club, the Overhead IFE was crap.....the pictures were so colour saturated that they were unviewable, the quality of the tape was unacceptable. (like tracking errors.).
Lastly, and not BA fault was the two kids behind me, with big feet.......
Bumz
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Bumz,
I fly this route quite frequently. The BA in0flight service is good, but the Europe seat is a scam, especially when you calculate the cost, compared to Club World to destinations further afield.
As I choose on the basis of seat size rather than service, I now use Aeroflot, they use a 310 or 777, with 2-3 classes, and you can fly first class/business class wide seats, lots of leg room, for less than half the price of BA.
The aircrew are very competent, and the service is - Russian...but a lot better than it used to be. You may find though, that the Beluga caviar and Stolychnaya Vodka is to your taste as a snack, and then spend the money you saved on a class restuarant in London or Moscow, when you arrive.
In Asia, almost all routes with SQ/CX/TG etc etc, which are over 1-2 hours are flown in widebodies with 2-3 classes and full service.
However, in the interests of spending their operating income in areas far removed from the aircraft and the pax, BA and other guilty parties in Europe, are stretching the geography a bit. (Maybe another Lord King is needed to reduce the management levels on the ground, and put some of that cash back in the air...he says while donning tin hat and body armour and heading for the fox-hole !!)
A good example is the overnight flight to Almaty (almost same time zone as Bangkok), which is done via Yekaterinburg, and all in all takes about 8 hours. This is a BA/BMed with Euro club seats !!! 6 days a week you can fly LH flatbed to the same destination. It pays to do your research.
I fly this route quite frequently. The BA in0flight service is good, but the Europe seat is a scam, especially when you calculate the cost, compared to Club World to destinations further afield.
As I choose on the basis of seat size rather than service, I now use Aeroflot, they use a 310 or 777, with 2-3 classes, and you can fly first class/business class wide seats, lots of leg room, for less than half the price of BA.
The aircrew are very competent, and the service is - Russian...but a lot better than it used to be. You may find though, that the Beluga caviar and Stolychnaya Vodka is to your taste as a snack, and then spend the money you saved on a class restuarant in London or Moscow, when you arrive.
In Asia, almost all routes with SQ/CX/TG etc etc, which are over 1-2 hours are flown in widebodies with 2-3 classes and full service.
However, in the interests of spending their operating income in areas far removed from the aircraft and the pax, BA and other guilty parties in Europe, are stretching the geography a bit. (Maybe another Lord King is needed to reduce the management levels on the ground, and put some of that cash back in the air...he says while donning tin hat and body armour and heading for the fox-hole !!)
A good example is the overnight flight to Almaty (almost same time zone as Bangkok), which is done via Yekaterinburg, and all in all takes about 8 hours. This is a BA/BMed with Euro club seats !!! 6 days a week you can fly LH flatbed to the same destination. It pays to do your research.
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I often wonder why DME and its profit potential is ignored. Cairo is a comparable flight time (slightly more) and yet was served by the 747-100/200(1990s), then the 777-200(2001/2), then the 747-400(2003/4) and currently the 777-200. Very much more in tune with the profit the route could make - and DME is a high yield route for BA!
The other noticeable "gap" is the lack of BA flights from Moscow early morning as the current options allow evening travel only.
A 777 could easily fill its J cabins on this route.
The other noticeable "gap" is the lack of BA flights from Moscow early morning as the current options allow evening travel only.
A 777 could easily fill its J cabins on this route.
Someone will doubtless have the actual figures, but doesn't the 767 in Euro configuration have pretty much the same capacity as a BA 777, all of which are in Long Haul config ?
DME is indeed a high yield route. The competition with Aeroflot is less than you might think as they operate from SVO, and the two airports are diametrically opposite across Moscow, it takes about 2 hours to get from one to the other, and passengers seem to make their preference more than anything else based on where they are going in Moscow. It's a big city and both airports are far out.
All the Aeroflot A310s and 777s seem to have been returned to the leasing companies now. Aeroflot stick to the A321 for London, supplemented by a few Il-96 flights. There are up to 4 A321s on a Saturday, peak day on the route.
DME is indeed a high yield route. The competition with Aeroflot is less than you might think as they operate from SVO, and the two airports are diametrically opposite across Moscow, it takes about 2 hours to get from one to the other, and passengers seem to make their preference more than anything else based on where they are going in Moscow. It's a big city and both airports are far out.
All the Aeroflot A310s and 777s seem to have been returned to the leasing companies now. Aeroflot stick to the A321 for London, supplemented by a few Il-96 flights. There are up to 4 A321s on a Saturday, peak day on the route.
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Purrrrrrr7777777
....something that BA have been trying to get for many years now.
AFAIK there are issues over security for the aircraft (and crew) on a nightstop that need addressing. Add to that that the Russians don't want to let get go of the highly lucrative ealry morning business traffic and you can begin to see why the progress has been very slow.
There were rumours a few short months ago of a late LHR departure arriving at say 0300 local with a, say, 0700 local return. ie an extended turn around for the aircraft, a 24-hour crew slip - I would guess on the 757/767.
Watch this space......
The other noticeable "gap" is the lack of BA flights from Moscow early morning as the current options allow evening travel only.
AFAIK there are issues over security for the aircraft (and crew) on a nightstop that need addressing. Add to that that the Russians don't want to let get go of the highly lucrative ealry morning business traffic and you can begin to see why the progress has been very slow.
There were rumours a few short months ago of a late LHR departure arriving at say 0300 local with a, say, 0700 local return. ie an extended turn around for the aircraft, a 24-hour crew slip - I would guess on the 757/767.
Watch this space......
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As far as I know BA is fighting for a long time to get an early slot out of Moscow and it is believed that BA have moved from SVO to DME because they have been promised to get the morning slot to LHR out of DME, but it never happend due to strong lobby of SU.
There are no technical problems, both SVO and DME can easily accommodate an extra departure/arrival in the morning, it is pure political/economical grounds. Send now a slot request to slot coordinator for a charter or business jet arrival any time tomorrow morning to SVO and DME and you will get it straight away.
I don't think there are any issues on aircraft/crew safety during overnight stay, Moscow is not Kinshasa or Baghdad...
There are no technical problems, both SVO and DME can easily accommodate an extra departure/arrival in the morning, it is pure political/economical grounds. Send now a slot request to slot coordinator for a charter or business jet arrival any time tomorrow morning to SVO and DME and you will get it straight away.
I don't think there are any issues on aircraft/crew safety during overnight stay, Moscow is not Kinshasa or Baghdad...
The overnight Moscow that Aeroflot operate from Heathrow seems to be popular with Russians who come and visit us, and is often sold out, but very much at the Y class end of things. It's not a long flight but there's a lot of timezone change (3 hours) for the distance, allowing an apparent overnight flight. However when they plan on going straight to work from the flight I wonder how good they feel ..... !
I am sure BA know how to handle landside security, they operate to places a lot more difficult than DME in this respect. Maybe more of a problem would be Russian visas for the nightstop crew, I don't think there is any shortcut for crews, they would all need full Russian multi-entry visas and the rigmarole that goes with that. Any crews of other carriers have experience of this ?
I am sure BA know how to handle landside security, they operate to places a lot more difficult than DME in this respect. Maybe more of a problem would be Russian visas for the nightstop crew, I don't think there is any shortcut for crews, they would all need full Russian multi-entry visas and the rigmarole that goes with that. Any crews of other carriers have experience of this ?
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Cargo 1
Sorry to differ. I speak as someone who flies for BA, and that is what I have been told.
DME might not be Kinshasa or Baghdad, but it would require precautions in place for the full duration of the time the aircraft is on the ground - and that IS an issue.
I don't doubt that it is primarily POLITICAL- ie SU don't want to lose J-class traffic on the route, palms will need greasing undoubtedly, and BA are usually very anti that sort of thing. Crew needing Visas etc is just another obstacle that is being put in the way of the route development by Russia.
I dare say if SU lost their nightstopping rights in LHR they might come back to the table to talk!
I don't think there are any issues on aircraft/crew safety during overnight stay, Moscow is not Kinshasa or Baghdad...
DME might not be Kinshasa or Baghdad, but it would require precautions in place for the full duration of the time the aircraft is on the ground - and that IS an issue.
I don't doubt that it is primarily POLITICAL- ie SU don't want to lose J-class traffic on the route, palms will need greasing undoubtedly, and BA are usually very anti that sort of thing. Crew needing Visas etc is just another obstacle that is being put in the way of the route development by Russia.
I dare say if SU lost their nightstopping rights in LHR they might come back to the table to talk!
SU don't nightstop in Heathrow. Even the 0830 departure to Moscow is a 0730 arrival from Moscow.
Visa regs are not a specific pick at BA but are a nuisance for everyone. Attention is currently focused on Ukraine who recently discarded their old-style visa requirements. The tedious regulations are not new, nor a throwback to the socialist period, they were like that in Czar days ! I wonder what the other nightstop operators at moscow do.
I reckon if the visa controls went (or became straightforward) BA, Aeroflot, and the rest might double their traffic in a year and the Russian economy benefit from huge tourist income.
The British are currently held in high regard in Russia at the moment as a result of the submarine rescue. Time for BA to have another go while the mood is good.
Visa regs are not a specific pick at BA but are a nuisance for everyone. Attention is currently focused on Ukraine who recently discarded their old-style visa requirements. The tedious regulations are not new, nor a throwback to the socialist period, they were like that in Czar days ! I wonder what the other nightstop operators at moscow do.
I reckon if the visa controls went (or became straightforward) BA, Aeroflot, and the rest might double their traffic in a year and the Russian economy benefit from huge tourist income.
The British are currently held in high regard in Russia at the moment as a result of the submarine rescue. Time for BA to have another go while the mood is good.
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WHBM
I didn't know that SU don't n/s LHR - I knew they had an early departure and assumed....
BA (BOAC) used to nightstop SVO en-route to/from Japan. One occasionally hears tales of the hotel conditions (own plug, toilet paper, towel needed etc; hot water/heating/cooling variable at best; madam at end of corridor not to be argued with; etc).
I agree that a relaxation a la Ukraine (relaxion originally for Eurovision, I believe) which has been extended has dramatically shown the benefit of opening up borders. See also India and now China catching on to the benefits.
As to the Russians and gratitude for the sub rescue, I won't hold my breath if you don't mind!
I didn't know that SU don't n/s LHR - I knew they had an early departure and assumed....
BA (BOAC) used to nightstop SVO en-route to/from Japan. One occasionally hears tales of the hotel conditions (own plug, toilet paper, towel needed etc; hot water/heating/cooling variable at best; madam at end of corridor not to be argued with; etc).
I agree that a relaxation a la Ukraine (relaxion originally for Eurovision, I believe) which has been extended has dramatically shown the benefit of opening up borders. See also India and now China catching on to the benefits.
As to the Russians and gratitude for the sub rescue, I won't hold my breath if you don't mind!
Top Bunk:
The hotel conditions have improved markedly (thank God!) since the arrival of the big hotel chains in Moscow. There is no longer any need to take your own toilet paper, or universal bath plug. The 'babushkas' on each floor no longer exist in Western-run hotels.
As I understand it, one of the main reasons for BA moving to DME was for the better connections (eastwards) from there. The flight timing may also be a factor in this. However, DME is a long way from the centre, and given the extremely heavy traffic in Moscow and its environs, getting into town can be a tedious and lengthy business. There are no hotels in the DME area worthy of the name at present.
On a different note, you mention the old SVO stopover on the TYO-LHR route. I have heard of the 'chandelier incident' which I believe was the inspiration for the 'Only Fools & Horses' episode. I don't want to hijack this thread, but could you please PM if you know anything (or know anyone who knows anything) about this. Iknow it happened, because I've spoken to people who were involved, as I'm doing some research on it, but it's been debunked as an urban myth.
The hotel conditions have improved markedly (thank God!) since the arrival of the big hotel chains in Moscow. There is no longer any need to take your own toilet paper, or universal bath plug. The 'babushkas' on each floor no longer exist in Western-run hotels.
As I understand it, one of the main reasons for BA moving to DME was for the better connections (eastwards) from there. The flight timing may also be a factor in this. However, DME is a long way from the centre, and given the extremely heavy traffic in Moscow and its environs, getting into town can be a tedious and lengthy business. There are no hotels in the DME area worthy of the name at present.
On a different note, you mention the old SVO stopover on the TYO-LHR route. I have heard of the 'chandelier incident' which I believe was the inspiration for the 'Only Fools & Horses' episode. I don't want to hijack this thread, but could you please PM if you know anything (or know anyone who knows anything) about this. Iknow it happened, because I've spoken to people who were involved, as I'm doing some research on it, but it's been debunked as an urban myth.
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???
DME is by far the most convenient airport for Moscow city centre. There's a dedicated train to Paveletsky station (where you may check-in for most airlines - not for BA I think - on your way to the airport). There's even what must be the ultimate capitalist airport service - a "late counter", where you may check-in if you missed the deadline, for an extra 300 roubles.
No such thing at SVO - it's a loooong slog in a cab, sitting in traffic, or a shorter slog to some outpost of the Moscow Underground. DME's also an overall much more professional and un-soviet experience than SVO.
DME is by far the most convenient airport for Moscow city centre. There's a dedicated train to Paveletsky station (where you may check-in for most airlines - not for BA I think - on your way to the airport). There's even what must be the ultimate capitalist airport service - a "late counter", where you may check-in if you missed the deadline, for an extra 300 roubles.
No such thing at SVO - it's a loooong slog in a cab, sitting in traffic, or a shorter slog to some outpost of the Moscow Underground. DME's also an overall much more professional and un-soviet experience than SVO.
Tom:
I was referring to the ride into MOW from DME from a crew perspective - not a pax one. Agree with what you say about DME v SVO - Terminal 2 is still locked in the 1970's,and as for Terminal 1...
I was referring to the ride into MOW from DME from a crew perspective - not a pax one. Agree with what you say about DME v SVO - Terminal 2 is still locked in the 1970's,and as for Terminal 1...
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VNU
Now has a rail link to Moscow centre Kievskia Main Line Railway station, FREE if travelling to/from Airport.
DME has a VIP welcoming service to wisk you thru customs, into exec lounge and wait for your bags. priority tags still mean nothing.
The departure BA lounge is very good.
The Russian Multi entry Crew Visa is no more problematic, in fact less so that the USA. They dont need AIDS tests either. Unless WORK permit visa requested.
There are NO good hotels near DME, totally agree.
Delta crew night stop, as do Emirates, they stay at the Renaissance up Prospect Mira. This hotel has a great exec floor, with 4 free internet terminals.
I have been working in Cairo recently, and the BA flight from CAI to LON has a real CLUB service, and very similar flight time. I beleive the crew night stop there.
Security in Moscow is not a problem, for the airports or the city.
The hotel situation has changed, yes there are many XXXXX hotels, and many other properties opening, but this summer very problematical to get rooms unless block booked. 600$ plus tax, plus tax being the typical XXXXX rate.
Bumz
DME has a VIP welcoming service to wisk you thru customs, into exec lounge and wait for your bags. priority tags still mean nothing.
The departure BA lounge is very good.
The Russian Multi entry Crew Visa is no more problematic, in fact less so that the USA. They dont need AIDS tests either. Unless WORK permit visa requested.
There are NO good hotels near DME, totally agree.
Delta crew night stop, as do Emirates, they stay at the Renaissance up Prospect Mira. This hotel has a great exec floor, with 4 free internet terminals.
I have been working in Cairo recently, and the BA flight from CAI to LON has a real CLUB service, and very similar flight time. I beleive the crew night stop there.
Security in Moscow is not a problem, for the airports or the city.
The hotel situation has changed, yes there are many XXXXX hotels, and many other properties opening, but this summer very problematical to get rooms unless block booked. 600$ plus tax, plus tax being the typical XXXXX rate.
Bumz
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CAI is 50-55 mminutes longer (over 25%) than DME. And the flights are timed for an evening arrival and a morning departure, 9hr turnround. Hence the nightstop. DME is only 10 mins longer than Athens and 40 mins shorter than Larnaca both of which are not full club.
BA long haul crews did used to stay in Moscow on some japanese flights many years ago, so cant imagine crew visas would cause a problem
BA long haul crews did used to stay in Moscow on some japanese flights many years ago, so cant imagine crew visas would cause a problem