What would you have done?
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What would you have done?
Okay so there I was, paxing from Beirut to Amsterdam.
The 737 is nearly full, and as I'm footing the bill I'm down the back in economy. I'm one of the first to board, but as I reach my seat I find someone already in it, who just waves his arms around when I query him on it.
So I call the FA over, who's actually a rather nice chap, and he investigates. Seems the bloke in my seat is travelling with two others. The FA checks all their boarding passes, and it seems that they're all sitting in the wrong seats. In fact, the seats they should have been sitting in are also occupied, by other people who are also sitting in the wrong seats!
The cabin's filling up fast and the FA quickly realises that there's going to be some serious seat swapping to do to get things back in order, so asks me most politely to come wait next to the rear galley until boarding is over, and as there are apparently 17 empty seats, I can sit where I like.
After standing there patiently like the stiff upper-lipped Brit that we all become abroad for over ten minutes, the FA gets off the interphone and tells me boarding has finished. With a cheeky grin I half-jokingly suggest that he might wish to seat me in business, as I've been inconvenienced a little and I do fly KLM regularly. He gives me a slightly withering look, as if to say' yeh right, dream on' and directs me off to the empty economy seats.
So I wander down the aircraft and sit down. Of course no sooner have I settled down than a late passenger boards and, lo and behold...I'm sitting in his seat! By the time I get unfastened, get up, get my coat, my book and my hand luggage back out of the (now secured) overhead bin I'm clearly holding things up by now. We are imminently about to push back, and we're already late.
So now the entire compliment of the 737 is sat down watching this flustered looking Englishman who seems to have a penchant for sitting in other people's seats and is now wandering up and down the aisle looking for an empty seat. Eventually I find one in the end and sit down, feeling somewhat annoyed.
I'm not one to make a fuss, but I made sure I boarded early, so I could settle down and get strapped in and then get on with reading a book. Instead I ended up being herded from one end of the cabin to the other twice, and looked like a prize gimp in front of a planeload of people, all because someone had taken my seat, and the FA couldn't be bothered to move them.
What would you have done? I feel that a nice gesture might have been to move me to business, or would that entail customer service? Over to you, Ppruners....
The 737 is nearly full, and as I'm footing the bill I'm down the back in economy. I'm one of the first to board, but as I reach my seat I find someone already in it, who just waves his arms around when I query him on it.
So I call the FA over, who's actually a rather nice chap, and he investigates. Seems the bloke in my seat is travelling with two others. The FA checks all their boarding passes, and it seems that they're all sitting in the wrong seats. In fact, the seats they should have been sitting in are also occupied, by other people who are also sitting in the wrong seats!
The cabin's filling up fast and the FA quickly realises that there's going to be some serious seat swapping to do to get things back in order, so asks me most politely to come wait next to the rear galley until boarding is over, and as there are apparently 17 empty seats, I can sit where I like.
After standing there patiently like the stiff upper-lipped Brit that we all become abroad for over ten minutes, the FA gets off the interphone and tells me boarding has finished. With a cheeky grin I half-jokingly suggest that he might wish to seat me in business, as I've been inconvenienced a little and I do fly KLM regularly. He gives me a slightly withering look, as if to say' yeh right, dream on' and directs me off to the empty economy seats.
So I wander down the aircraft and sit down. Of course no sooner have I settled down than a late passenger boards and, lo and behold...I'm sitting in his seat! By the time I get unfastened, get up, get my coat, my book and my hand luggage back out of the (now secured) overhead bin I'm clearly holding things up by now. We are imminently about to push back, and we're already late.
So now the entire compliment of the 737 is sat down watching this flustered looking Englishman who seems to have a penchant for sitting in other people's seats and is now wandering up and down the aisle looking for an empty seat. Eventually I find one in the end and sit down, feeling somewhat annoyed.
I'm not one to make a fuss, but I made sure I boarded early, so I could settle down and get strapped in and then get on with reading a book. Instead I ended up being herded from one end of the cabin to the other twice, and looked like a prize gimp in front of a planeload of people, all because someone had taken my seat, and the FA couldn't be bothered to move them.
What would you have done? I feel that a nice gesture might have been to move me to business, or would that entail customer service? Over to you, Ppruners....
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I've been in this situation, both as Crew and as a passenger, and it's never easy. Some people simply sit where they wish and refuse to move. As a Crew member, there is a real problem - you cannot physically move somebody (you can ask, but no more) and calling police/security is something of an overreaction, and is likely to delay departure. You can start asking for baggage descriptions and receipts and threaten offload, but this needs very careful handling to avoid making the situation worse (or yourself looking like a twit). In my (democratic) one class charter world, an upgrade is not possible - but sometimes you can use exit/bulkhead vacant seats to reseat the innocents, combined with a complimentary drink. I also tend to check the ticket details of the passenger who refuses to move - if he's travelling with us again, I can get various restrictions placed on him, or, if his activities have delayed us or caused serious trouble, he will be refused travel.
Under the circumstances you describe, assuming space/catering available, I would personally have upgraded you.
Under the circumstances you describe, assuming space/catering available, I would personally have upgraded you.
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Yep know the feeling - however on safety (identity) grounds I insist on getting my allocated seat for a very simple reason...and I make the idiot who is in my seat move...
With the exception of an LCC where there is free seating policy your name and seat allocation goes on the manifest...so if there is an incident i.e. ground fire or air crash and my remains (identifiable or not as the case may be) are found sitting in 'my' seat they know who I am and can give me to 'my' relatives accordingly (although I would hope a dental records check may resolve this but maybe not if the incident is 3rd world)...or I am alive and incapacitated in hospital and they think I am someone else (give me someone else's meds for a known condition that the other person has)...etc. etc. you get the idea...
Seat swopping means that this record is no longer accurate and worse case scenario some other pax's remains are identified as me...
With the exception of an LCC where there is free seating policy your name and seat allocation goes on the manifest...so if there is an incident i.e. ground fire or air crash and my remains (identifiable or not as the case may be) are found sitting in 'my' seat they know who I am and can give me to 'my' relatives accordingly (although I would hope a dental records check may resolve this but maybe not if the incident is 3rd world)...or I am alive and incapacitated in hospital and they think I am someone else (give me someone else's meds for a known condition that the other person has)...etc. etc. you get the idea...
Seat swopping means that this record is no longer accurate and worse case scenario some other pax's remains are identified as me...
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Good Point, Boss - I hadn't considered that aspect. The difficulty comes with actually moving the intransigent ones, though... How do you do it? Physical threat or actual violence from either a passenger or a crew member is likely to result in an offload of all involved. I'm sure that you'rre impressive when angry, but there are pleanty of people who just don't care...
Generally I will insist on taking my assigned seat if I detect that it's a "try-on" rather than a genuine mistake. On one occasion the FA asked me to take "any other seat to expedite departure". I did, and sat myself in Business Class! I informed the FA up front what I had done, why, and that I did not expect a meal. She said, "OK", and that was it. Oh, and I got the full Business Class treatment including a meal (refused by one of the other BC pax).
Too mean to buy a long personal title
I'd have been very tempted to have stayed in the seat, told the late pax that I'd been told to sit there by that cabin crew member (which would only have been stretching the truth slightly) and directed the late pax to the rear galley to see him. Chances are that it would have resulted in the late pax also being told to take some other empty seat ...
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Similar to BRUpax a buddy of mine on a fairly full El Al flight from JFK to Tel Aviv found his coach seat occupied by the father of a three family group (wife and kid). He told the FA the situation and the FA told him to "take any seat you want". So he goes straight to Biz and sits down. Biz FA comes up and asks him who he is and why is he sitting in that seat. He points to the FA he had had the word with and says "She told me to sit here", the response was "Oh, okay". And he got the full Biz treatment too 
Ozzy
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On the question of how to get them to move I am polite but firm and make it clear I am not going to back off ...usually under the glares of all the other pax stacking up behind me in the aisle even the most ignorant individual will yield...by going to get the FA you are basically indicating defeat...a pax who wont shift and is obstructive under such circumstance should be offloaded and if this delays the flight so be it
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I feel that the above replies are advocating a response that is rather extreme given the circumstances.
Duplicate seating issues are a regular occurrence, often the fault of airline ground staff, and equally often the fault of a passenger - whether intentional or not.
Firstly, and with the greatest respect to TightSlot who flies for a charter airline, I must say that a duplicate seating issue is not, under any circumstances, a situation where an upgrade is required. The obvious exception being when the intended class of travel is full.
When offering an upgrade, especially at such a late stage in the boarding process that all other passengers are seated, it is important to remember the impression this gives to full revenue passengers seated in the business or first class cabin.
How would you feel having paid several hundred / thousand more pounds, only to have someone on a far cheaper ticket sat right next to you.
Perhaps the crewmember in question should have re-sat the original passengers who were sat in the incorrect seats, it's hard to say without being in the situation at the time.
What I can almost guarantee however, is that 99% of passengers (perhaps Boss Raptor is excluded here
) would rather depart sooner - sat anywhere, rather than later - sat in their allocated seat.
Maybe the crewmember in question was trying to appease the greatest number of passengers given the options available to him.
Duplicate seating issues are a regular occurrence, often the fault of airline ground staff, and equally often the fault of a passenger - whether intentional or not.
Firstly, and with the greatest respect to TightSlot who flies for a charter airline, I must say that a duplicate seating issue is not, under any circumstances, a situation where an upgrade is required. The obvious exception being when the intended class of travel is full.
When offering an upgrade, especially at such a late stage in the boarding process that all other passengers are seated, it is important to remember the impression this gives to full revenue passengers seated in the business or first class cabin.
How would you feel having paid several hundred / thousand more pounds, only to have someone on a far cheaper ticket sat right next to you.
Perhaps the crewmember in question should have re-sat the original passengers who were sat in the incorrect seats, it's hard to say without being in the situation at the time.
What I can almost guarantee however, is that 99% of passengers (perhaps Boss Raptor is excluded here
) would rather depart sooner - sat anywhere, rather than later - sat in their allocated seat.Maybe the crewmember in question was trying to appease the greatest number of passengers given the options available to him.
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Being off the 'old school' I believe that pax. should be accutely aware that for safety etc. etc. the F/A will be obeyed, that the pax. will behave and do as they are instructed on board an aircraft...and this wrong seating situation is just one which is indicative of the poor attitude some pax. unfortunately have...A passenger behaving in this manner at the beginning of a flight could well be a greater problem during the flight...it is certainly an indication
The message to them of appeasement from either the airline, F/A or righful passenger merely allows them to continue to behave in this manner and sets a poor example to others. It is like the school bully who sits at your desk or takes your pen etc. and will continue to do so - why? very simple because he is getting away with it and hasn't been stopped...and where does it stop, air rage next? I used to punch out the school bully even when they were twice my size and they never came near me again
An F/A should not be concerned having to ask a pax. to move nor should the cabin crew be placed under any pressure by their airline not to delay an aircraft where a case of cabin safety/discipline is in question
The message to them of appeasement from either the airline, F/A or righful passenger merely allows them to continue to behave in this manner and sets a poor example to others. It is like the school bully who sits at your desk or takes your pen etc. and will continue to do so - why? very simple because he is getting away with it and hasn't been stopped...and where does it stop, air rage next? I used to punch out the school bully even when they were twice my size and they never came near me again
An F/A should not be concerned having to ask a pax. to move nor should the cabin crew be placed under any pressure by their airline not to delay an aircraft where a case of cabin safety/discipline is in question
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It happened to me in Greece in the summer. A lady was sitting in my allocated seat and as neither of us spoke each others language, I asked the FA to help.
It turned out that the woman was on her first flight and didn't understand what a seat number was. As her seat was an aisle seat a few rows back, I offered to swap so she could enjoy the view.
In this instance, it ended in smiles all around and I felt pretty good about being able to help someone else.
It turned out that the woman was on her first flight and didn't understand what a seat number was. As her seat was an aisle seat a few rows back, I offered to swap so she could enjoy the view.
In this instance, it ended in smiles all around and I felt pretty good about being able to help someone else.
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Happened to me a few years ago out of Vladivostok on a Vladivostok Air Yak-42. Boarded and found a bear of a man sitting in my seat and not exactly the kind of guy you would want to meet in a dark alley at night.... I looked at him, opened my mouth, grinned foolishly and.....went in search of another seat!
Paxing All Over The World
This happened to me two days ago. On my regular LTH~IOM to see mother, my seat was taken. I knew that the flight was not full and I could have my choice of about a dozen seats. But they moved even as I raised my eyebrows and pointed at the seat number.
I agree with Boss on this one. Also, if my compelling them to move (and possibly others) means that they will get it right next time?? Then I can rest easy, knowing that I have done my bit to educate them and help all of humanity. (Hhmm, why is there not a 'smiley' with a halo on it??)
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
I agree with Boss on this one. Also, if my compelling them to move (and possibly others) means that they will get it right next time?? Then I can rest easy, knowing that I have done my bit to educate them and help all of humanity. (Hhmm, why is there not a 'smiley' with a halo on it??)
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Virgin Boi: When offering an upgrade, especially at such a late stage in the boarding process that all other passengers are seated, it is important to remember the impression this gives to full revenue passengers seated in the business or first class cabin.
How would you feel having paid several hundred / thousand more pounds, only to have someone on a far cheaper ticket sat right next to you.
How would you feel having paid several hundred / thousand more pounds, only to have someone on a far cheaper ticket sat right next to you.
All premium class pax know or ought to know that sometimes things will happen that mean that Y pax have to be UG. Tell a premium pax: "We've got a bit of a last minute problem with the seats and there's a pax here without one, so we're UGing him to solve the problem and get the flight underway". Would that get a better response than telling the premium pax: "This pax is being UG because he flirted with the check-in girl", or "This pax told the gate agent that he plays golf with the CEO", or one of the other "imaginative" bits of crap that pax come up with every day when trying to blag an UG for free.
I would bet my bottom dollar that the premium pax would be much more understanding of the first reason.
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I dunno about other carriers, but for BA it is very important for pax to sit in their allocated seats until the aircraft is airborne (and preferably afterwards).
The plain and simple reason is that we keep records of who occupies which seat. In the extremely unlikely event that an aircraft was to be lost, we (or the CAA) would be able to assist in identifying remains and/or personal property by their location on board.
If everyone has played musical chairs, then a situation like Lockerbie would become a near impossible task........yet Easyjet, Ryanair and the Lo-Cos somehow feel infallible by permitting "free seating", and still insist their operations are safe and secure!!!
Had we been made aware of this situation on a BA registered aircraft, as Ground Staff, we would have insisted on deboarding the aircraft and reboarding to ensure the pax occupied correct seats.
The plain and simple reason is that we keep records of who occupies which seat. In the extremely unlikely event that an aircraft was to be lost, we (or the CAA) would be able to assist in identifying remains and/or personal property by their location on board.
If everyone has played musical chairs, then a situation like Lockerbie would become a near impossible task........yet Easyjet, Ryanair and the Lo-Cos somehow feel infallible by permitting "free seating", and still insist their operations are safe and secure!!!
Had we been made aware of this situation on a BA registered aircraft, as Ground Staff, we would have insisted on deboarding the aircraft and reboarding to ensure the pax occupied correct seats.
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This is also, of course, why you are asked to adopt the brace position in the event of a crash. I don't think there's much evidence that it makes much difference to survivability, but it does get the heads below seat level so less of them are chopped off by bits of flying metal, thereby making the identification of remains more straightforward.
Although personally I have never understood why this is important - if you know who was on the flight then you know who is dead - putting the pieces back together won't make them come alive again!
Although personally I have never understood why this is important - if you know who was on the flight then you know who is dead - putting the pieces back together won't make them come alive again!
Sorry Bealine , but when an a/c is only +/- 60% or so full and I'm allocated a crap middle seat when rows are left empty, I re-assign myself! Consequently, I would estimate that about 50% of the time that I travel, I'm not in my assigned seat. If I end up as blubber what do I care anyway! 
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bealine who are you kidding
50% of the time I am on a BA flight, and down in the catle shed, if in a row of 3 and there are aisle seats, free with only a window occupant I will relocate, either with or without the approval of anyone.
As to the main thrust of the thread, I have been UG several times as a result of just this situation. Be very helpfull to the CC, and ye shall be rewarded.....
UG's often happen once on aircraft, more that set up at checkin...
Windy
As to the main thrust of the thread, I have been UG several times as a result of just this situation. Be very helpfull to the CC, and ye shall be rewarded.....
UG's often happen once on aircraft, more that set up at checkin...
Windy
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Yes, you three, you're right, if you're dead you couldn't care less whether we know who you are or not. The trouble is, you've probably got friends, relatives and employers (and creditors possibly???) who do care and would like to have the right bits of you back in a box!
In addition christep, if we have one of those situations, such as Kegworth, where many are dead but some survive, it is much, much better for next of kin to know definitely one way or the other rather than having their loved one posted as "missing".
As for on-board seat moves and upgrades, these are recorded by BA Flght Crew and signalled back to base to amend the passenger manifest accordingly. (If we ever move your seat at the gate, and you happen to observe closely, if it isn't altered in the computer a manual entry is made to the "Passenger Boarding Log" showing, for example, Seat 32B moved to 24C).
Now, BRUPax, your attitude is rather disturbing as you have no possible way of knowing whether a seat is broken or not. By just grabbing a vacant seat without asking anyone could be your undoing! (At the very least, you could end up with coffee in your lap as the table collapses! Of course, any claim against the airline - even for Dry Cleaning - would result in your having to show your Boarding Card and, you guessed it, the emboldened allocated Seat Number could relinquish the airline of any responsibility!)
Of course, if we carry out everything we're supposed to in a disciplined manner, the chances of a disaster occurring are greatly reduced.
I guess this is one of the essential differences between a professional airline and a money-grabber!!! (And now I'd like to get away from this morbid subject 'cos I never want to witness another air disaster - ever!)
In addition christep, if we have one of those situations, such as Kegworth, where many are dead but some survive, it is much, much better for next of kin to know definitely one way or the other rather than having their loved one posted as "missing".
As for on-board seat moves and upgrades, these are recorded by BA Flght Crew and signalled back to base to amend the passenger manifest accordingly. (If we ever move your seat at the gate, and you happen to observe closely, if it isn't altered in the computer a manual entry is made to the "Passenger Boarding Log" showing, for example, Seat 32B moved to 24C).
Now, BRUPax, your attitude is rather disturbing as you have no possible way of knowing whether a seat is broken or not. By just grabbing a vacant seat without asking anyone could be your undoing! (At the very least, you could end up with coffee in your lap as the table collapses! Of course, any claim against the airline - even for Dry Cleaning - would result in your having to show your Boarding Card and, you guessed it, the emboldened allocated Seat Number could relinquish the airline of any responsibility!)
Of course, if we carry out everything we're supposed to in a disciplined manner, the chances of a disaster occurring are greatly reduced.
I guess this is one of the essential differences between a professional airline and a money-grabber!!! (And now I'd like to get away from this morbid subject 'cos I never want to witness another air disaster - ever!)
Last edited by bealine; 21st Nov 2004 at 19:02.
Oh Bealine, that's a bit patronising. Perhaps I'm just a little more intelligent than you perceive me to be! But, in true Tony Blair fashion, you avoid the issue. The problem manifests itself from poor seat allocation procedures (by the system) on relatively lightly loaded a/c.