Heathrow angst
Too mean to buy a long personal title
So why do we carry on using LHR, despite all its long-term flaws? There are some wonderful benefits from the service there. Like almost a shuttle service to JFK. Like the choice of half a dozen different ways of getting to Australia every evening, depending on how early or late in the evening would be good for Sir, and by which route? (And that's just from T4.)
Every good thing in life comes with a downside. Only being humans, we like to moan about the things that we don't like, and skate over the things that are good for us. Does anyone really think that airlines like to make their customers miserable when everyone knows there are other choices around?
Every good thing in life comes with a downside. Only being humans, we like to moan about the things that we don't like, and skate over the things that are good for us. Does anyone really think that airlines like to make their customers miserable when everyone knows there are other choices around?
Join Date: Jun 2004
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You should all listen to Final 3 Greens,
BA are a super company to fly with or be in their care be it only on the ground, but we all love taking a dig at the BIG guy!
Have you all had your heads in the sand lately or something cos your all moaning without merit.... BA are more than aware of the problems with Heathrow, thats why not long ago a huge amount of the longhaul flights departed from the less congested and in my opinion, more passenger friendly Gatwick...BUT NO....The majority of you insist on flying into congested heathrow so when it came to cost cutting it was an obviously easy decision for BA to concentrate its 747's and thus majority of its longhaul services back to LHR!!!
But like I said, BA are aware of the congestion...hence the terminal switch recently and to all you moaners...YES that big shiny looking thing going up at the end of the airfield is infact a brand new terminal 5 for BA and yes it will solve most of the problems....But be patient guys!!!!
Or you could just all turn your minds and agree that LGW is a good place to fly to and see if things get moved back!!!
HAHAHAHA....WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!
BA are a super company to fly with or be in their care be it only on the ground, but we all love taking a dig at the BIG guy!
Have you all had your heads in the sand lately or something cos your all moaning without merit.... BA are more than aware of the problems with Heathrow, thats why not long ago a huge amount of the longhaul flights departed from the less congested and in my opinion, more passenger friendly Gatwick...BUT NO....The majority of you insist on flying into congested heathrow so when it came to cost cutting it was an obviously easy decision for BA to concentrate its 747's and thus majority of its longhaul services back to LHR!!!
But like I said, BA are aware of the congestion...hence the terminal switch recently and to all you moaners...YES that big shiny looking thing going up at the end of the airfield is infact a brand new terminal 5 for BA and yes it will solve most of the problems....But be patient guys!!!!
Or you could just all turn your minds and agree that LGW is a good place to fly to and see if things get moved back!!!
HAHAHAHA....WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!
Aisle seat, please.
Join Date: May 2003
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Flew in from Nairobi with BA earlier this week and ended up on a remote stand and had to be bussed (BA can call it coaching all they like, it's still a bus) to the terminal. OK these things happen, we understand that. But after a long day, I was desperately hoping to catch an early bus home from the coach station (see how these things get complicated?). Being on a remote stand more or less ruined my chances and came as a nasty surprise. If someone had bothered to tell us that we'd be bussed in, I would have had time to rethink and to face getting home an hour later. But no one told us, so I got a nice surprise when the doors opened and we all had to walk downstairs. It's only a little thing, but good customer services would have thought to tell us what was going on.
With LHR the way it is, things like this will always happen, but if poeple would give full and timely explanations it would help.
To continue I readjusted my expectations and hoped to make the next bus (one every forty minutes or so) but there was a queue at immigration and my bag took a while to come (these things happen). Despite everything, I made it to the Coach station at T2 fifteen minutes before the next bus. Would you believe it, there was only one person selling tickets and a line stretching well out of the door? Took over fifteen minutes to get my ticket and missed another bus - though the nice man selling tickets (wasn't his fault) still gave me a ticket for the bus that we could both see driving out of the station as he printed my ticket.
What bothered me was that while only one person was selling tickets, there was someone else doing admin at one of the desks and abusing anyone who tried to talk to her (yes, she was being very rude to the paying public) and plenty of other people wandering around with coffee cups in the hands doing Important-Things.
The whole experience wasn't good. Took two over two hours from landing to getting on a bus (then the M25 and M3). The airline/airport side of things wasn't great but it's a busy airport and these things happen. But National Express were really dreadful.
If I could avoid LHR I would, but until someone starts up a Bournemouth Nairobi or Southampton Yaounde route, it looks like I'm stuck with it!
With LHR the way it is, things like this will always happen, but if poeple would give full and timely explanations it would help.
To continue I readjusted my expectations and hoped to make the next bus (one every forty minutes or so) but there was a queue at immigration and my bag took a while to come (these things happen). Despite everything, I made it to the Coach station at T2 fifteen minutes before the next bus. Would you believe it, there was only one person selling tickets and a line stretching well out of the door? Took over fifteen minutes to get my ticket and missed another bus - though the nice man selling tickets (wasn't his fault) still gave me a ticket for the bus that we could both see driving out of the station as he printed my ticket.
What bothered me was that while only one person was selling tickets, there was someone else doing admin at one of the desks and abusing anyone who tried to talk to her (yes, she was being very rude to the paying public) and plenty of other people wandering around with coffee cups in the hands doing Important-Things.
The whole experience wasn't good. Took two over two hours from landing to getting on a bus (then the M25 and M3). The airline/airport side of things wasn't great but it's a busy airport and these things happen. But National Express were really dreadful.
If I could avoid LHR I would, but until someone starts up a Bournemouth Nairobi or Southampton Yaounde route, it looks like I'm stuck with it!
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Just to add my six-pence worth;-
T3 - it doesn't take much will-power or shareholders money to replace carpet with brown tape all over it and replace the damaged/missing ceiling tiles.
T4 (BA) - Could the BA flight crew stop the pretence and feigned surprise everytime I arrive from USA. It's always:-
- taxy off runway and stop. FD announcement "There seems to be a lot of traffic this morning and we need to wait a while before taxiing to T4".
- taxy to 27L/09R and stop. FD announcement "Unfortunately the south runway is in use this morning and we need to wait a while before crossing the runway.
- cross runway and stop. FD announcement "Sorry ladies and gentlemen but there's a lot of aircraft arriving at T4 this morning and we need to wait a while before taxiing to our gate".
- taxy forward to near T4 and stop. FD announcement "It won't be long now before we park but we're waiting for another aircraft to vacate our gate".
- taxy to remote stand. FD announcement "..... etc. etc.
I won't bore you with the details but it follows the lines of waiting for buses / steps etc.
I've heard this so many times now that I actually start laughing when they go through this routine. I never slag off the crew though as, personnally, I've always had reasonable service from BA.
In short, LHR is a national disgrace but there's not a lot that we can do about it so I don't shorten my life-span getting angry and and upset about it. I just admire the prettiest crew member from afar and enjoy the whole experience !
airsmiles
T3 - it doesn't take much will-power or shareholders money to replace carpet with brown tape all over it and replace the damaged/missing ceiling tiles.
T4 (BA) - Could the BA flight crew stop the pretence and feigned surprise everytime I arrive from USA. It's always:-
- taxy off runway and stop. FD announcement "There seems to be a lot of traffic this morning and we need to wait a while before taxiing to T4".
- taxy to 27L/09R and stop. FD announcement "Unfortunately the south runway is in use this morning and we need to wait a while before crossing the runway.
- cross runway and stop. FD announcement "Sorry ladies and gentlemen but there's a lot of aircraft arriving at T4 this morning and we need to wait a while before taxiing to our gate".
- taxy forward to near T4 and stop. FD announcement "It won't be long now before we park but we're waiting for another aircraft to vacate our gate".
- taxy to remote stand. FD announcement "..... etc. etc.
I won't bore you with the details but it follows the lines of waiting for buses / steps etc.
I've heard this so many times now that I actually start laughing when they go through this routine. I never slag off the crew though as, personnally, I've always had reasonable service from BA.
In short, LHR is a national disgrace but there's not a lot that we can do about it so I don't shorten my life-span getting angry and and upset about it. I just admire the prettiest crew member from afar and enjoy the whole experience !
airsmiles
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Ok, so T5 will solve the problem (although not completely by the sounds of it), however, reviewing schedules could help !!!
Given that almost all long haul arrive between 6 and 7am, why not look to delay the depatures of some of them. and spread the load over another couple of hours.
Arriving slightly later helps with sleep and reduces jet-lag for me anyway. However, my preference is to arrive late afternoon or early evening on any long haul if possible. Everyone I speak to agrees, so why don't the airlines try to accomodate. This is not just a BA/LHR problem.
Given that almost all long haul arrive between 6 and 7am, why not look to delay the depatures of some of them. and spread the load over another couple of hours.
Arriving slightly later helps with sleep and reduces jet-lag for me anyway. However, my preference is to arrive late afternoon or early evening on any long haul if possible. Everyone I speak to agrees, so why don't the airlines try to accomodate. This is not just a BA/LHR problem.
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I don't know (I only sit in the back), but I strongly suspect that many travellers do want to get into LHR at dawn in order to catch onward connections so that they arrive at their ultimate destinations in time to get some useful hours at the office. LHR is so busy in large part because of the tremendous range of connecting flights available.
I'm sure that BA spend a lot of time and money researching the needs of their pax and don't time all those flights to arrive early morning for the hell of it! That having been said, it's no excuse for not having the resources to handle the flood of arrivals in a timely manner.
I'm sure that BA spend a lot of time and money researching the needs of their pax and don't time all those flights to arrive early morning for the hell of it! That having been said, it's no excuse for not having the resources to handle the flood of arrivals in a timely manner.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Wot No Engines... couldn't agree more, but unfortunately it's not that simple.
One of the major problems are curfews at the majority of airports - usual 2300-0600. Scheduling aircraft from this side of the world to Europe is difficult.
So that I can arrive in London (from Australia) in the evening I overnight in say KUL or SIN en route and take the morning flight originating out of there which gets me into London at a more convenient time. (It's obvious that I cannot fly with QANTAS because of this).
Another problem is feeder aircraft connections at the originating port and destination of the international flight. It's no good an aircraft leaving SYD at say 0700 half empty because passengers can't connect from provincial cities.... or arrive at London when all the European connections (that have ticketing arrangements with other carriers) have already departed.
I opt to overnight, but younger people on tighter budgets may not be able to afford the time or money... and airlines don't wish to put barriers up to stop passengers using their services by forcing them to overnight.
There are other considerations too.
I trust this offers some explanation.
As I said before - eliminate the curfews and the major problem would be solved. We all know that this is not possible.
One of the major problems are curfews at the majority of airports - usual 2300-0600. Scheduling aircraft from this side of the world to Europe is difficult.
So that I can arrive in London (from Australia) in the evening I overnight in say KUL or SIN en route and take the morning flight originating out of there which gets me into London at a more convenient time. (It's obvious that I cannot fly with QANTAS because of this).
Another problem is feeder aircraft connections at the originating port and destination of the international flight. It's no good an aircraft leaving SYD at say 0700 half empty because passengers can't connect from provincial cities.... or arrive at London when all the European connections (that have ticketing arrangements with other carriers) have already departed.
I opt to overnight, but younger people on tighter budgets may not be able to afford the time or money... and airlines don't wish to put barriers up to stop passengers using their services by forcing them to overnight.
There are other considerations too.
I trust this offers some explanation.
As I said before - eliminate the curfews and the major problem would be solved. We all know that this is not possible.
Join Date: May 2002
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Of course the one thing that would eliminate all this is geographical airport usage:
Flights to/from West - LHR
Flights to/from South - LGW
Flights to from North / East - STN
All Airlines using London airports should finance a high-speed link between the three airports.
Not only would this eliminate the problems you experience currently, it would put an end to the "stacking" problems over London skies!
Politically sensitive though, so they won't buy it!
Flights to/from West - LHR
Flights to/from South - LGW
Flights to from North / East - STN
All Airlines using London airports should finance a high-speed link between the three airports.
Not only would this eliminate the problems you experience currently, it would put an end to the "stacking" problems over London skies!
Politically sensitive though, so they won't buy it!
Paxing All Over The World
Interesting point bealine. I must say that I do find it very amusing that the anti-noise pollution lobby 'out rule' the anti-fuel pollution lobby, so that we get lots of big birds burning gas on hold and then standing on the tarmac with two engines ticking over - whilst they wait for a stand. 
The people who want the long hauls to arrive in LHR early are the the biz pax and they call the tune. I have ranted before about this problem on the long North/South routes such as my regular to JNB. Flights arrive in the morning but leave in the evening, so the aircraft and crew wait on the ground for some 10 hours longer than they need to. Guess who pays?
The people who want the long hauls to arrive in LHR early are the the biz pax and they call the tune. I have ranted before about this problem on the long North/South routes such as my regular to JNB. Flights arrive in the morning but leave in the evening, so the aircraft and crew wait on the ground for some 10 hours longer than they need to. Guess who pays?
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Not sure about this Paxboy, but could it have something to do with crew hours and not having to slip crews at London if the same crew take the aircraft back to JNB? Saves costs.
Paxing All Over The World
I don't think so. When I first did the route, as a child in the 60s (Eeek, that sounds like a long time ago ... 
) the a/c did a daylight return. In June 1971, I did a daylight trip with BOAC Super VC-10 JNB~LHR.
SABENA used to do an immediate turn, as they could save the extra stand time. Particularly if the a/c has to be towed out to a remote stand and then back etc. So the SABENA was out overnight and arrive at about 06:30 and then off at about 09:00.
VS on the CPT route, which they run in the southern summer as a tourist route, will turn immediately. This is also out night and daylight return and I have used that service. BA, on the same route, always stops in CPT for the day, as they do in JNB. VS considers the JNB route one of it's prime biz routes and always return the following night.
As I recall, Swiss Air used to go out at night and daylight back but I see that Swiss are now running their MD-11s with the daytime stop over as well.
Last example, SAA arrive here at 06:25 and are towed out for the day and then towed back for a 20:00-ish departure.
(end of rant)
) the a/c did a daylight return. In June 1971, I did a daylight trip with BOAC Super VC-10 JNB~LHR.SABENA used to do an immediate turn, as they could save the extra stand time. Particularly if the a/c has to be towed out to a remote stand and then back etc. So the SABENA was out overnight and arrive at about 06:30 and then off at about 09:00.
VS on the CPT route, which they run in the southern summer as a tourist route, will turn immediately. This is also out night and daylight return and I have used that service. BA, on the same route, always stops in CPT for the day, as they do in JNB. VS considers the JNB route one of it's prime biz routes and always return the following night.
As I recall, Swiss Air used to go out at night and daylight back but I see that Swiss are now running their MD-11s with the daytime stop over as well.
Last example, SAA arrive here at 06:25 and are towed out for the day and then towed back for a 20:00-ish departure.
(end of rant)
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PAXboy
KLM fly out of Europe AM and then the aircraft comes straight back after about 2 hours in JNB.
To me this has a number of probs.
1. The trip out “costs” a working day. For a lot of pax their employers (who are paying for the flight) prefer them to have a bad night sleep on an aircraft and then go sright to work. The trip back gets in about mid day. Again this uses up a big part of a working day, particularly if there is a connecting flight to follow the long haul one. Business pax on average pay the most for their flights. Employers prefer their staff to spend nights on aircraft not working days.
2. If the day flight is down to JNB there is the problem of a late arrival is SA. This may be OK with the locals but with the safety situation most visitors prefer to arrive in daylight. If the day flight is to Europe the problem is getting in in time to make connecting flights with a civilised departure from JNB.
KLM fly out of Europe AM and then the aircraft comes straight back after about 2 hours in JNB.
To me this has a number of probs.
1. The trip out “costs” a working day. For a lot of pax their employers (who are paying for the flight) prefer them to have a bad night sleep on an aircraft and then go sright to work. The trip back gets in about mid day. Again this uses up a big part of a working day, particularly if there is a connecting flight to follow the long haul one. Business pax on average pay the most for their flights. Employers prefer their staff to spend nights on aircraft not working days.
2. If the day flight is down to JNB there is the problem of a late arrival is SA. This may be OK with the locals but with the safety situation most visitors prefer to arrive in daylight. If the day flight is to Europe the problem is getting in in time to make connecting flights with a civilised departure from JNB.
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BAA website for Terminal 4 shows no less than 20 arrivals and 5 departures between 5 Am and 7 AM on T4 alone. Now under the circumstances an occasional 25 min delay (esp for a flight which reached early) is not too great.
I really canot understand why if you can automatically allow for an extra hour driving down the M1 from Milton Keynes to London between 8 aM and 10 Am, the same provision cant be built into your schedules when you are landing into a crowded LHR at peak time in the morning (which for T4 is early rnorning with jumbo loads of trans continental flights arriving!).
Yes LHR immigration is not too great, but then they arent too bad either. When I landed on a Sunday evening (same case as our friend who posted the original thread - we reached 15 min early and held for 20 min on the ground before we got a stand), the immigration officer in charge at T3 was making visible efforts to get more counters manned .
Coming to my flight, the one difference was that while we were waiting for a gate at T3, the flight deck did make a clear announcement for the reason for the delay and that went a long way in improving things, esp when most of us could see the aircraft which was holding us up (I think it was Iran Air) finally leaving the gate.
Now this is an area where I feel the travel agents as well as airline reservation staff can play a part. Why do they book passengers into incredibly tight connections- Yes the COMPUTER says 1 hour but the passenger might be perfectly willing to reach the connecting airport two hours earlier to ensure that he/she does not miss that crucial long haul connection ! The price of automation - increasing no of robots manning the screens!
I really canot understand why if you can automatically allow for an extra hour driving down the M1 from Milton Keynes to London between 8 aM and 10 Am, the same provision cant be built into your schedules when you are landing into a crowded LHR at peak time in the morning (which for T4 is early rnorning with jumbo loads of trans continental flights arriving!).
Yes LHR immigration is not too great, but then they arent too bad either. When I landed on a Sunday evening (same case as our friend who posted the original thread - we reached 15 min early and held for 20 min on the ground before we got a stand), the immigration officer in charge at T3 was making visible efforts to get more counters manned .
Coming to my flight, the one difference was that while we were waiting for a gate at T3, the flight deck did make a clear announcement for the reason for the delay and that went a long way in improving things, esp when most of us could see the aircraft which was holding us up (I think it was Iran Air) finally leaving the gate.
Now this is an area where I feel the travel agents as well as airline reservation staff can play a part. Why do they book passengers into incredibly tight connections- Yes the COMPUTER says 1 hour but the passenger might be perfectly willing to reach the connecting airport two hours earlier to ensure that he/she does not miss that crucial long haul connection ! The price of automation - increasing no of robots manning the screens!
Paxing All Over The World
xyz_pilot. Yep, this is not a problem for me - I was just trying to put some more info into the reason for all the flights arriving at LHR in the first 90 mins of the day (apart from the obvious curfew). I am well aware that Biz pax set the agenda. When I am biz pax, I am more than happy about that. 
KLM to JNB are probably doing the daylight return, if their route has become more of a tourist one and they want to lower prices.
I agree with rsoman that allowing 60/90 mins for connection at LHR at that time of the day is not sensible. People still seem to think that a/c will arrive on time and that the jet-way will kiss the door at exactly the time on the itinerary.
For LHR and other Europeans hubs, the removal of the curfew would fix the problem and remove some pollution. But, as we know, LHR is in both the Right and Wrong place! The airport has been 'fudged' by politicians since it's inception and there is no political will to fix the problem. Nominally, move the airport or move the people that live around it.
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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
KLM to JNB are probably doing the daylight return, if their route has become more of a tourist one and they want to lower prices.
I agree with rsoman that allowing 60/90 mins for connection at LHR at that time of the day is not sensible. People still seem to think that a/c will arrive on time and that the jet-way will kiss the door at exactly the time on the itinerary.
For LHR and other Europeans hubs, the removal of the curfew would fix the problem and remove some pollution. But, as we know, LHR is in both the Right and Wrong place! The airport has been 'fudged' by politicians since it's inception and there is no political will to fix the problem. Nominally, move the airport or move the people that live around it.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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As a punter living within an hour of three (emptyish) local airports - EGBB, EGNX and EGCC, I am glad that I don't have to experience too often, the pain that is Heathrow.
But despite their relative emptiness, these smaller regionals have their problems too.
It seems to Mrs F and I that every time we fly in to Birmingham, it comes as a bit of a surprise to them! "Oh bu**er! Another plane's turned up. Where on earth shall we put it?"
Then an inevitable delay while parking is found, steps are located, a bus is found and so it goes on.
Just smile though, and know that inside fifteen/twenty minutes, we'll be outside the terminal and heading for home. Rather better than the London experience methinks.
But despite their relative emptiness, these smaller regionals have their problems too.
It seems to Mrs F and I that every time we fly in to Birmingham, it comes as a bit of a surprise to them! "Oh bu**er! Another plane's turned up. Where on earth shall we put it?"
Then an inevitable delay while parking is found, steps are located, a bus is found and so it goes on.
Just smile though, and know that inside fifteen/twenty minutes, we'll be outside the terminal and heading for home. Rather better than the London experience methinks.
