Check in staff - don't tell porkies!
Ohcirrej
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Check in staff - don't tell porkies!
*Warning - Rant mode on*
Having just returned from the yearly pilgrimage back to Oz, I'm going to have to have a rant about seat allocation, especially reference Emergency Exit/Bulkhead seating.
One thing |I can't get my head around is the allocation of these seats. It was my understanding that ideally an "able bodied" pax should be here for obvious reasons. At 6 foot 1 and 95 kgs, I would like to think I fit this description. This is where my confusion begins.
Many times on booking tickets and confirming them just before the flight, I am told that I can't reserve these seats (several different carriers have told me this). I always arrive at check in VERY early (much to the disgust of Mrs Jerricho!), and am told "Sorry, none of them are left!" (and I do understand that it may be an onwards flight, so people may be already on there..........this is fair enough). But the thing that boils my p*ss more than anything is on more than one occasion, I have seen people in the line BEHIND me (sometimes well behind), and lo and behold, I get on the jet having been told "Sorry, all gone", and there they are in the Emergency exit seats!!!! And also, there have been times when they definately couldn't be descrived as able bodied! Respect to my elders and all, but no 65 year old lady is gonna be physically able to chuck my ass out the door!
What gives? I hate being spun a load of b*llocks!
Having just returned from the yearly pilgrimage back to Oz, I'm going to have to have a rant about seat allocation, especially reference Emergency Exit/Bulkhead seating.
One thing |I can't get my head around is the allocation of these seats. It was my understanding that ideally an "able bodied" pax should be here for obvious reasons. At 6 foot 1 and 95 kgs, I would like to think I fit this description. This is where my confusion begins.
Many times on booking tickets and confirming them just before the flight, I am told that I can't reserve these seats (several different carriers have told me this). I always arrive at check in VERY early (much to the disgust of Mrs Jerricho!), and am told "Sorry, none of them are left!" (and I do understand that it may be an onwards flight, so people may be already on there..........this is fair enough). But the thing that boils my p*ss more than anything is on more than one occasion, I have seen people in the line BEHIND me (sometimes well behind), and lo and behold, I get on the jet having been told "Sorry, all gone", and there they are in the Emergency exit seats!!!! And also, there have been times when they definately couldn't be descrived as able bodied! Respect to my elders and all, but no 65 year old lady is gonna be physically able to chuck my ass out the door!
What gives? I hate being spun a load of b*llocks!
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One word for this is - Status
You'll probably find that they are higher up the food chain than you in their respective Freq. Flyer clubs. Regular flyers are like most of us - they won't pay business fares for vacations - why would you pay up to 10 x deeply discounted Y fare for yourself and family? Therefore as a token of the amount of fully paid J fares they allow them to get previlages that most of us won't get when flying Y.
Benjurs
You'll probably find that they are higher up the food chain than you in their respective Freq. Flyer clubs. Regular flyers are like most of us - they won't pay business fares for vacations - why would you pay up to 10 x deeply discounted Y fare for yourself and family? Therefore as a token of the amount of fully paid J fares they allow them to get previlages that most of us won't get when flying Y.
Benjurs
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Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!
Had the same with Virgin - unless I paid £50/$75 for the priviledge - which would have been 25% of the fare!
Still waiting for a reply I sent to their customer service conserning the safety of this procedure. Not had a reply yet...
PW
Had the same with Virgin - unless I paid £50/$75 for the priviledge - which would have been 25% of the fare!
Still waiting for a reply I sent to their customer service conserning the safety of this procedure. Not had a reply yet...
PW
Too mean to buy a long personal title
One other factor - on many airlines, by the time check-in opens at the airport a large number of people have already checked-in and been allocated better seats. Many people are connecting on itineraries that may have started 24 hours or more before departure (eg SYD-LHR-JFK) and have been through-checked at the initial point, and Internet check-in often opens 24 hours before the flight.
Staff who (by whatever legitimate or illegitimate means) organise exit row seats for people who shouldn't be there, however, ought to be jumped on hard.
Staff who (by whatever legitimate or illegitimate means) organise exit row seats for people who shouldn't be there, however, ought to be jumped on hard.
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Firstly I would like to say in defence of check in staff that we are not telling porkies when we inform pax that there are no emergency exit/bulk head seats available, as agents we can only allocate seats that are available in the system, with a little extra work however and a few phone calls it is SOMETIMES possible for us to get you moved, this may not happen straight away as the staff dealing with your request are also probably sorting out another 20 problems at the same time like getting families sat together, so we may be asked to put a seat preference comment into the system, this will normally be dealt with and you will receive the good news at the gate, on occaision however it may not be possible and unfortunatley that is the way it goes.
As far as EE and Bulk Head seating allocation goes it does have alot to do with status, for the very reasons that Benjurs states.
Pilotwolf - I think you got the s**t end of it with VS, maybe I was just lucky or they changed there policy since the last (and only) time I flew with them, I was on a VS flight from LHR to SFO, I arrived about 4 hours early (it may be sad to be there that early but it is worth it sometimes), they were just opening check in and my friend and I arrived at the desk , I put the request in for the Emergency Exit, one phone call later and we were presented with boarding cards for the EE row just behind Premium Economy at no additional cost, we were in fact lucky enough to get the same row on our return flight as well.
It's been a long time since I was on board one of our (BA) 777's so I may be wrong on this one, to my recolection there is only one Emergency Exit row with seating, I believe that the other Emergency Exits are located either side of the galleys (Bealine can you confirm??) as far as Bulkhead seating goes on these aircraft they normally have the bassinet on them for pax travelling with Infants and of course their associated family.
Globaliser - I totally agree with your last statement, I can assure you that (and I am sure a majority of other BA staff) will have an passenger re-seated (regardless of status) if when they turn up at check in they are unsuitable for the Emergency Exit row.
All I can say regarding these much sought after seats is.
1. Arrive at check in early (bear in mind that some airlines operate a single queue for all longhaul flights, thus pax can check in at 0630 for flight departing at 1100)
2. Speak nicely to the check in staff (most people do, however there are also alot that don't!!) and you are more likely to have your request actioned
3. Don't go off on one, if you don't get what you want, as I said earlier it is not always possible to deal with all these requests
4. If you don't get the answer you want from one person, then don't go asking everyone wearing the same uniform as this is likely to p*ss you off more when you get the same response, and no the gate team are not always able to overrule a decision made at check in.
I hope this is of some help
Best of luck for future travel
Bluejay
As far as EE and Bulk Head seating allocation goes it does have alot to do with status, for the very reasons that Benjurs states.
Pilotwolf - I think you got the s**t end of it with VS, maybe I was just lucky or they changed there policy since the last (and only) time I flew with them, I was on a VS flight from LHR to SFO, I arrived about 4 hours early (it may be sad to be there that early but it is worth it sometimes), they were just opening check in and my friend and I arrived at the desk , I put the request in for the Emergency Exit, one phone call later and we were presented with boarding cards for the EE row just behind Premium Economy at no additional cost, we were in fact lucky enough to get the same row on our return flight as well.
It's been a long time since I was on board one of our (BA) 777's so I may be wrong on this one, to my recolection there is only one Emergency Exit row with seating, I believe that the other Emergency Exits are located either side of the galleys (Bealine can you confirm??) as far as Bulkhead seating goes on these aircraft they normally have the bassinet on them for pax travelling with Infants and of course their associated family.
Globaliser - I totally agree with your last statement, I can assure you that (and I am sure a majority of other BA staff) will have an passenger re-seated (regardless of status) if when they turn up at check in they are unsuitable for the Emergency Exit row.
All I can say regarding these much sought after seats is.
1. Arrive at check in early (bear in mind that some airlines operate a single queue for all longhaul flights, thus pax can check in at 0630 for flight departing at 1100)
2. Speak nicely to the check in staff (most people do, however there are also alot that don't!!) and you are more likely to have your request actioned
3. Don't go off on one, if you don't get what you want, as I said earlier it is not always possible to deal with all these requests
4. If you don't get the answer you want from one person, then don't go asking everyone wearing the same uniform as this is likely to p*ss you off more when you get the same response, and no the gate team are not always able to overrule a decision made at check in.
I hope this is of some help
Best of luck for future travel
Bluejay
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Bluejay... that was mid December 2003.
I managed to get a bulkhead seat instead by asking the gateroom staff though. My concern was the same as Jerrico's I don't fancy having to fight my way past a few old 'dribblies' who have the spare cash to pay for the exit row seat if I need to get out in a hurry.
Talking to the crew on board they aren't best pleased with the system and WILL move pax who they consider unsuitable to be sat there - whether they've paid or not. Just causes more hassle for the cabin crew, who incidently also get no preference of exit seats unless they pay the extra...
PW
I managed to get a bulkhead seat instead by asking the gateroom staff though. My concern was the same as Jerrico's I don't fancy having to fight my way past a few old 'dribblies' who have the spare cash to pay for the exit row seat if I need to get out in a hurry.
Talking to the crew on board they aren't best pleased with the system and WILL move pax who they consider unsuitable to be sat there - whether they've paid or not. Just causes more hassle for the cabin crew, who incidently also get no preference of exit seats unless they pay the extra...
PW
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PW, looks like they have changed there policy regarding allocaton of those seats
I totally disagree with a policy of paying extra for those seats, it can lead to too many problems, especially if they then have to be moved. What next, someone returning from a skiing holiday with a broken leg and being told by airline staff that they can have the EE as long as they pay a few extra quid - ludicrous!!
Apologies if some of what I said was a bit generalised, obviously different airlines have different set ups as regards seat changes etc.
On occaision it is worth asking at the gate, especially if the flight has been handed over from flight control to the despatcher, this effectivley means that we can have a look at the seat plan and if the seat is available then we can move you and either liase with or just advise the despatcher of what we have done. If however the answer is still no or its not been done yet then it may be worth asking the crew, after take off when they will be able to better assist you.
Bluejay
I totally disagree with a policy of paying extra for those seats, it can lead to too many problems, especially if they then have to be moved. What next, someone returning from a skiing holiday with a broken leg and being told by airline staff that they can have the EE as long as they pay a few extra quid - ludicrous!!
Apologies if some of what I said was a bit generalised, obviously different airlines have different set ups as regards seat changes etc.
On occaision it is worth asking at the gate, especially if the flight has been handed over from flight control to the despatcher, this effectivley means that we can have a look at the seat plan and if the seat is available then we can move you and either liase with or just advise the despatcher of what we have done. If however the answer is still no or its not been done yet then it may be worth asking the crew, after take off when they will be able to better assist you.
Bluejay
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Bluejay: It's been a long time since I was on board one of our (BA) 777's so I may be wrong on this one, to my recolection there is only one Emergency Exit row with seating, I believe that the other Emergency Exits are located either side of the galleys (Bealine can you confirm??) as far as Bulkhead seating goes on these aircraft they normally have the bassinet on them for pax travelling with Infants and of course their associated family.
I haven't seen a plan for the new 3 class 777, but apparently J class (NCW) extends fore and aft of Door 2, where there are galley and toilets. It follows that neither WT+ nor WT will have any additional exit rows.
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Bluejay is right about BA's treatment of staff who allocate Exit Rows to unsuitable pax - they get bounced rather hard!!!!
That having been said, sometimes we get embarrassing moments! "Any chance of an Exit Seat, mate? I've got long legs!"
"Mmmm! Yes, I've a aisle left so I'll let you have it!" replies Bealine civilly.
"Cheers mate! I've just had a knee operation see, and me arthritis in me hip is giving me the very devil today!!!"
.........Seriously though, we often receive criticism for allocating airline staff the exit row seating. In our defence, that's done because we know the crew would receive help in an emergency and that the airline staff are familiar with emergency procedures. It is not a deliberate ploy to deprive a commercial passenger of a more comfortable seat!!!
That having been said, sometimes we get embarrassing moments! "Any chance of an Exit Seat, mate? I've got long legs!"
"Mmmm! Yes, I've a aisle left so I'll let you have it!" replies Bealine civilly.
"Cheers mate! I've just had a knee operation see, and me arthritis in me hip is giving me the very devil today!!!"
.........Seriously though, we often receive criticism for allocating airline staff the exit row seating. In our defence, that's done because we know the crew would receive help in an emergency and that the airline staff are familiar with emergency procedures. It is not a deliberate ploy to deprive a commercial passenger of a more comfortable seat!!!
Ohcirrej
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Bluejay, I appreciate you taking time for the post, but your advice is kind of preaching to the choir. On more than one occasion I have been 3rd in the line, waiting for check in for the flight to open (and it has been the first leg with no previous connection eg Heathrow-Singapore). Can't tell me something before the flight hasn't been arranged. I always speak politely to the staff, attempting to be friendly etc. I never exceed baggage rules, alway have the correct sized carry on luggage......sorry dude, nothing available.
If the paying of a few extra dollars/pounds/whatever's is an option, it's never been highlighted to me on booking. And, sounding like a broken record, if you're looking for help in bucking peoples asses off a jet, Granny Clampitt ain't going to be much help in shifting me.
If the paying of a few extra dollars/pounds/whatever's is an option, it's never been highlighted to me on booking. And, sounding like a broken record, if you're looking for help in bucking peoples asses off a jet, Granny Clampitt ain't going to be much help in shifting me.
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Seems to me that there are 2 slightly different issues here -
First one relates to the suitability in safety terms of a person to sit at an exit, and the second as to the desirability of selling the same seat.
It goes without saying that persons sitting adjacent to an exit must be capable of opening it, and getting out. They are not actually required by law to be capable of getting others out (as far as I'm aware in the UK). Defining that capability is, of course, a subjective decision, one man's able bodied being anothers unsuitable. It is the ultimate responsibility of the Cabin Crew to ensure that those sitting at the exit are in compliance, although Check-In and other ground handling agents have an initial responsibility for preventing seats being inappropriately allocated: However the buck stops with the Cabin Crew, and difficult though it may be, we are required to re-seat unsuitable passengers, regardless of commercial arrangements. It is not uncommon for passengers pre-booking (and paying) for emergency exit seats to "forget" to mention their age or disability at the time of booking (and paying) despite being specifically asked. Our company regs mention those unsuitable as including "Elderly" and "Obese" amongst others: At what point does large become fat become obese? The desision is subjective. Your perception (as a passenger) of another persons level of obesity, as one who has not received your requested seat could conceivably be coloured by that event, as it could with an older passenger. An impartial Crew member might take a different view. I'm not attempting to excuse Cabin Crew in this, merely to point out the difficulties.
On the issue of paying for exit/bulkhead seats, I have no problem. When designing aircraft, the predominant factor may be weight, but when operating it, that factor becomes space: Business class get more space than economy, and First get more still. In short, space is what you pay for. If certain seats in economy have more of that commodity, and there is a commercial demand for it, then why shouldn't airlines sell it - that after all is what they are in the business of doing. The issue becomes so for those who feel that they are entitled to the commodity without paying for it. A previous post mentioned that a 25% fare supplement was required on one flight. Well, why not? The original fare charged seems pretty reasonable for a long haul flight, so why should a supplement of $50-$75 be excessive? If it matters sufficiently, then a customer will make a value judgement and pay for it, or not. If a customer is commercially important to an airline, then why shouldn't the airline reward them with various benefits when the opportunity presents itself?
As crew, a significant percentage of the problems that I have to resolve relate to customers who have not received something that they have not paid for but feel an entitlement to (e.g. legroom, free drinks, free additional baggage weight, peanuts and snacks, headphones etc.). It would be nice to meet these needs, but it would also be nice for the company to remain solvent in these difficult times. On my 757, there are 235 seats, 3 of which are against the bulkhead, 2 have extended space in front and 13 are located at exits, meaning approximately 7% of the available seats have additional space of some kind. Nine of those seats are sold at a commercial premium, and five are held back for the disabled or others requesting additional space (not the exit rows). The number of disabled (mentally of physically) and others needing space for very good reasons, usually significantly exceeds the number of seats available.
I've just re-read this post, and it may sound like I'm being down on passengers - I'm not intending to be so, just trying to point out that the process can be more complicated than it seems. An aircraft carrying 235 people also contains 235 individuals, each with their own desires and requirements, and these generally compete with the other 234 on board. It is a no win situation.
First one relates to the suitability in safety terms of a person to sit at an exit, and the second as to the desirability of selling the same seat.
It goes without saying that persons sitting adjacent to an exit must be capable of opening it, and getting out. They are not actually required by law to be capable of getting others out (as far as I'm aware in the UK). Defining that capability is, of course, a subjective decision, one man's able bodied being anothers unsuitable. It is the ultimate responsibility of the Cabin Crew to ensure that those sitting at the exit are in compliance, although Check-In and other ground handling agents have an initial responsibility for preventing seats being inappropriately allocated: However the buck stops with the Cabin Crew, and difficult though it may be, we are required to re-seat unsuitable passengers, regardless of commercial arrangements. It is not uncommon for passengers pre-booking (and paying) for emergency exit seats to "forget" to mention their age or disability at the time of booking (and paying) despite being specifically asked. Our company regs mention those unsuitable as including "Elderly" and "Obese" amongst others: At what point does large become fat become obese? The desision is subjective. Your perception (as a passenger) of another persons level of obesity, as one who has not received your requested seat could conceivably be coloured by that event, as it could with an older passenger. An impartial Crew member might take a different view. I'm not attempting to excuse Cabin Crew in this, merely to point out the difficulties.
On the issue of paying for exit/bulkhead seats, I have no problem. When designing aircraft, the predominant factor may be weight, but when operating it, that factor becomes space: Business class get more space than economy, and First get more still. In short, space is what you pay for. If certain seats in economy have more of that commodity, and there is a commercial demand for it, then why shouldn't airlines sell it - that after all is what they are in the business of doing. The issue becomes so for those who feel that they are entitled to the commodity without paying for it. A previous post mentioned that a 25% fare supplement was required on one flight. Well, why not? The original fare charged seems pretty reasonable for a long haul flight, so why should a supplement of $50-$75 be excessive? If it matters sufficiently, then a customer will make a value judgement and pay for it, or not. If a customer is commercially important to an airline, then why shouldn't the airline reward them with various benefits when the opportunity presents itself?
As crew, a significant percentage of the problems that I have to resolve relate to customers who have not received something that they have not paid for but feel an entitlement to (e.g. legroom, free drinks, free additional baggage weight, peanuts and snacks, headphones etc.). It would be nice to meet these needs, but it would also be nice for the company to remain solvent in these difficult times. On my 757, there are 235 seats, 3 of which are against the bulkhead, 2 have extended space in front and 13 are located at exits, meaning approximately 7% of the available seats have additional space of some kind. Nine of those seats are sold at a commercial premium, and five are held back for the disabled or others requesting additional space (not the exit rows). The number of disabled (mentally of physically) and others needing space for very good reasons, usually significantly exceeds the number of seats available.
I've just re-read this post, and it may sound like I'm being down on passengers - I'm not intending to be so, just trying to point out that the process can be more complicated than it seems. An aircraft carrying 235 people also contains 235 individuals, each with their own desires and requirements, and these generally compete with the other 234 on board. It is a no win situation.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Jerricho: On more than one occasion I have been 3rd in the line, waiting for check in for the flight to open (and it has been the first leg with no previous connection eg Heathrow-Singapore). Can't tell me something before the flight hasn't been arranged.
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check in staff
As cabin crew, this is on of the subjects that really get our back up! We are given a list of the people that are not aloud to sit at emergency exits, but sadly this list does'nt ever make it to check-in, it appears that sometimes they don't even know what the restricted seats are.
Now this is'nt me having a dig at the check-in staff, as i am sure they have a stressful time, but please think it through! It does now seem that every flight we have to move people, for reasons like they are to large, pregnant and don't speak the same language as any of the crew members! And children, come on!!!!
I do think they should be left for tall, strong people, as it is them that could have to open the very heavy doors, in an emergency, this is my opinion so i guess it will never happen!
Can i just ask one thing, that when people do get it, don't gloat to the 6'8 man behind you, that has his knee's around his ears as it is not funny, or have a go at the crew if you don't get it, as it really is'nt our fault and there has to be a good reason for us to move someone and put you there!!
Now this is'nt me having a dig at the check-in staff, as i am sure they have a stressful time, but please think it through! It does now seem that every flight we have to move people, for reasons like they are to large, pregnant and don't speak the same language as any of the crew members! And children, come on!!!!
I do think they should be left for tall, strong people, as it is them that could have to open the very heavy doors, in an emergency, this is my opinion so i guess it will never happen!
Can i just ask one thing, that when people do get it, don't gloat to the 6'8 man behind you, that has his knee's around his ears as it is not funny, or have a go at the crew if you don't get it, as it really is'nt our fault and there has to be a good reason for us to move someone and put you there!!
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Agree with you - we were assigned row 1 on a Go flight in 2002 and had small kids with us.
When I queried this, the check in agent was quite stroppy and wouldn't change the allocation, so the no 1 hostie had to do it on board, quite unecessary workload created by poor training or procedures.
Agree with you - we were assigned row 1 on a Go flight in 2002 and had small kids with us.
When I queried this, the check in agent was quite stroppy and wouldn't change the allocation, so the no 1 hostie had to do it on board, quite unecessary workload created by poor training or procedures.
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It happens all the time.
Quite often pax pre-book these seats way before the flt departs, sometimes weeks, thats why nomatter what time you turn up they hava all be allocated, pain in the arse I know, but by paying the extra the airline is making money, that's the way to run a bussiness.
CHEERS!!!!!!!!!
CHEERS!!!!!!!!!
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It doesn't happen often, but porkies are told, and we have to deal with the aftermath on-board. Not a seat issue, but just recently my cabin crew had to placate a very dissatisfied lady who was charged a fortune for excess baggage "because the flight is full" ........ we had one hundred and two spare seats.
What absolute crooks we looked. I was ashamed.
Sure, excess baggage charges are there to discourage us becoming a removal truck - and bring in revenue, but she wasn't complaining about the excess charge at all - but about being told a blatant lie.
What absolute crooks we looked. I was ashamed.
Sure, excess baggage charges are there to discourage us becoming a removal truck - and bring in revenue, but she wasn't complaining about the excess charge at all - but about being told a blatant lie.
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SEAT ALLOCATION
One of the most ridiculous scenarios that seems to be happening is on BA - I travel LGW/MAN regularly and the first 5 rows are blocked (always 737) if a light load - when you try and move you are told by CC that 'they are blocked for trim' - I have never known there be a trim problem on a 737 unless a very light load - they then sometimes put - it then becomes a mockery as if there off duty BA staff, they are moved to the front prior to take off anyway !!
Occasionally, the odd seat in row 2 or 3 is assigned; maybe Gold Card ? - fair enough, but just try moving to another seat in the same row and you are told no for the same reason!
The occasional crew member using comon sense and lets you move but normally , they come down to you with the PNL and solemmly decalre 'Oh these are blocked' - one girl even said 'If you move and the CAA get on board I will loose my job'!!
Using the BA web site to check in normally gives you a god choice of seat however
Occasionally, the odd seat in row 2 or 3 is assigned; maybe Gold Card ? - fair enough, but just try moving to another seat in the same row and you are told no for the same reason!
The occasional crew member using comon sense and lets you move but normally , they come down to you with the PNL and solemmly decalre 'Oh these are blocked' - one girl even said 'If you move and the CAA get on board I will loose my job'!!
Using the BA web site to check in normally gives you a god choice of seat however