Working for Free!
 

It has been brought to my attention for a flying job advertised within Australia, that an extremely large amount of applicants who applied, most having not even met the minimum requirments, are publicising that they will WORK FOR FREE! This is unbelievable and those that do should be shown the door to any job. And that goes to employers who take on these people and use them for their own gain.

I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.

It makes me absolutely furious that there are people like this out there! :mad:

There are reasons the Fair Work Act has a minimum wage, and this should be the MINIMUM paid. If you can't afford to pay that, you shouldn't be in business!!

Simple!

The entertainment industry is the same; full of people volunteering to be exploited. :sad: Did any of the applicants offer sexual favours to the recruiter? That's also pretty standard in entertainment. :eek: If the Marquis de Sade were alive today he'd be making a very happy living as a recruiter for fashion models or reality TV shows, and probably wouldn't have time to write anything. :hmm:

In both industries it undermines conditions, drives down pay and generally :mad:s everyone else around. Before too long that particular career path becomes pretty much untenable for anyone wanting to make a living wage.

By way of example, this has already happened with acting and music thanks to people who'll literally do anything for exposure. A classical musician spends at least ten and usually fifteen years learning their craft, which is worth jack all when some inferior person will turn up and play for nix.

Agree with you 100%.

Nothing has changed
 

I once had a pilot send me his CV and he offered to work for free. I rang him and told him that if he worked for free he must be getting paid what he is worth. I have even had pilots offering to pay the insurance excess due to his inexperience!

Ive also had my own experience with the mininum wage for pilots. Idesperately want to fly but I have a mortgage and a wife and baby to support. The so called 'award' needs to be brought up to todays standards. With all the money spent on training and study inbolved to obtain licenses its no wonder kids these days choose anything but flying to study.

Something has got to give and :mad: soon!

2 words: Supply and Demand.

There's not much of a career path in being a professional waterslide tester, not because it doesn't need to be done, but because lots of people really, really want to do it.

Of course, this kind of thing has been going on for years, is still going on, and will continue into the future. :ouch:

And always for the same reasons which we all know about.

You only have to look at some of the recent contracts offered by J* both here and in EnZed to see how many people are willing to fly an A320 for well below average wages, and with the likelihood of servicing massive training loans as well.

Read through some of the Euopean wannabees forums and look at the P2F schemes where not only are pilots paying for jet endorsements, they are paying to fly their first 500 hours on line.

But did this start overnight? Did pilots suddenly just start offering to work for free, or has there been a gradual lowering of what pilots are willing to get paid to fly bigger and bigger equipment until we get to the current situation?

Maybe, if pilots in the past weren't willing to earn, say $14,800 for a ME-IFR job like the bloke on this thread did:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...job-worth.html

and maybe if pilots wouldn't accept flying under appalling conditions like this bloke did:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post6318126

then there wouldn't be pilots willing to work for free today!

Of course I'm being a bit harsh on Hold_Short here, as he's far from the only pilot who's guilty of this kind of thing, and people have been doing this since well before he became a commercial pilot.

Bizarre, though, that he's either forgotten his recent past, or is showing some amazing hypocrisy; accusing others of continuing the decline of which he was recently party.

DIVOSH!

DIVOSH! Never have I ever worked for free! Let's get that straight. I have only accepted the minimum wages in the past because it is legal and nothing done wrong by the employer for offering it.

What the problem is is other people accepting and agreeing to a wage which is less than acceptable. It takes two to tango and the previous thread is right. Supply vs Demand...the more people willing to accept the offerings and promote cheap labor, the lower the next jobs wage will be.

A $50 000 a year job today will be taken next year by another guy who will do it for $5 000 less, while all other costs increase. And the flowon continues.

Although some companies offer above award wages at present, next year they will reduce TO the minimum and yet the job will still be highly sort after!

I'm sure in a few years when the J* cadets and the REX cadets get there upgrades, they won't be paid at the wage a captain is on at present. It will be less and yet each of them will jump at it!

My big pet hate and have heard it happen ten times over.

To low timers: go to AFAP where you see the jobs and read the pilot award!

I have also heard "it is easy to say that when you have experience". That may be true but most people on this forum would have done the hard yards to get where they are.

Agree that working for free or less than the required standard is unacceptable for both the employer and the pilot. (Legally for the employer, morally for the pilot)
As long as you meet the minimum under the award, then it is legal.
The more subjective question is whether the minimum is sufficient pay for someone that has just forked out $90,000 in training costs and sacrificed 2 years or more for training and experience.
Lets say you score a gig flying a PA31-350 doing freight. The award appears to pay you a min of about $42K p/a full time, plus allowances for IFR, unloading etc.. (Yes, we all know that no one pays the allowances either - "becasue we just can't afford it...").
Lets compare this to a first year solicitor/lawyer (that I met the other day) that did a graduate law degree and incurred fees of $106 (law degree of $96K and practice course of $8000, plus admission fees etc ... etc..). He gets paid the princely sum of $35K p/a. Which is not uncommon in suburban or botique firms.
So the lawyer gets paid a lot less than the pilot.
Its all a BIG generalisation, as the first 1-3 years of any profession can be quite low pay.
But, after 4 years and 2000 hours in the book you could be flying a B200 (Air Ambulance or RFDS) for about $85K+ p/a, which looks palatable, if not enjoyable.
I'd be quite happy to do a year on $42K+ allowances on twins, but agree that it would not pay the mortgage or the lifestyle to which the family have become accustomed.
It is problematic that recovering the amount you spent on training and living at the same time is going to be hard, unless you have a benefactor. Or you have already made your money and decided to spend the $90K and chuck in your higher paying job (whcih I can't seem to bring myself to do).
Simple labour economics - supply and demand.

B.1Classifications and minimum salaries

B.1.1Aircraft classification and minimum salaries

[B.1.1 substituted by PR997787 from 31May10; varied by PR997933, PR503362 from 01Nov10; PR509077, PR522908ppc 01Jul12]

Full-time pilots employed by an airline operation or a general aviation employer must be paid at least the following minimum annual salaries:




Single engine UTBNI 1360 kg
Single engine 1360 kg-3359 kg
Single engine 3360 kg & above
Multi engine UTBNI 3360 kg

Many people don't realise this but there is a huge surplus of law graduates. More people are doing law than can ever be usefully employed as lawyers, so the industry has the same oversupply problem as aviation does.

Recently someone sent me a thing called the Ideal Job Triangle. One corner was labelled Fun, one was labelled Well Paid and the remaining corner was labelled Legal. The caption was 'you can only choose two.':ouch:

Unfortunately it's often the case.

I agree that's too far.

No matter how desperate, you should not work for free. Flying is work, you need to get paid for the work you do.

First they pay to fly ...
Then they fly for free
Then they get paid to fly
Then they try to work out how to get paid without flying

Poor fellow this industry, the humble scenic flight pilot who works hard all day, puts up with tourists and flys over tiger cournty should be getting 100K + but it is often this job that first attracts the freebie wannabees.

Fixed wing - You work for the smallest operator flying for almost free, in the smallest of planes, the most under-maintained, trying to keep yourself alive on minimum equipment, then work your way up to the bottom of the rung twin, a better twin, a turbine twin maybe and in the end if you are lucky you get to fly a super-safe and reliable airliner.

Rotary - You start in a nice little R44 doing joy flights flying for free, you work your way up to a Squirrel, you then get endorsed for this that and everything, move into high risk jobs, mustering, sling loads, fire fighting etc, then when you have enough hours, you get your most dangerous job flying full IFR off-shore to oil rigs in the most demanding of conditions.

Or, you join the military as a pilot and get shot at, flying fixed or rotary wing, the enemy doesn't care.

Who wants to be a pilot?

RE: Worrals
 

I know of a girl who traded sex for a job. 18 years old and flying a chieftain PIC. The more action she gave the chief pilot the more flight she got! But word definitely has gotten around, even in the 24 months since she first got employed.

Who can afford to work for free??
I'm guessing only those who's mummy and daddy paid for their training spout that crap.

"Fixed wing - You work for the smallest operator flying for almost free, in the smallest of planes, the most under-maintained, trying to keep yourself alive on minimum equipment, then work your way up to the bottom of the rung twin, a better twin, a turbine twin maybe and in the end if you are lucky you get to fly a super-safe and reliable airliner."

Thats literally the truth. :{:{

Ha! That's nothing: When I was the Tugmaster at the gliding club some Bozo rang me and said that he wanted to fly the Tug for us so as he could "knock up some hours for his CPL". He said that as he didn't have a CPL yet that he would only charge us $5 per hour for his services! :rolleyes:

I wonder who he works for now?:cool:

Hold Short - with respect, go back and read your own posts! You didn't accept the minimum wages you accepted WELL below the minimum, and it is not legal and the employer is doing something wrong.

The union wouldn't help you because you weren't a member. You can still pursue legal action against the employers for the wages they withheld from you, though.

Sometimes a difficult decision indeed. With a huge over-supply of pilots in Australia, something has to give. Everyone has an angle and in the end it all boils down to how much are you prepared to spend to get a flying job. Take Lion air Indonesia where pay-to-fly is all the go. CPL graduate gets himself a 737 type rating in USA at half the price he will pay for an Australian based type rating provider.

He then coughs up another 20 grand or more to buy himself a right hand seat slot in an Asian airline via Eagle Jet in USA or similar. No pay of course. Six months later he has 300 hours on the 737/A320 and is offered a full time job with pay in the RH seat having proved he isn't a nutter. Six years later with 4-5000 hours on the Airbus or 737 he will be upgraded to captain. From there on he is home and hosed.

Never happen in Australia because of the surfeit of spare pilots doing instructor courses on a C152 after CPL. Six years later he will be a grade one with 2500 hours as an instructor if he gets the job and his compatriot in Indonesia is a 737 captain. It is a no brainer if you have the money to spare.

Whether you fly for free in a Cessna 172/210 in Australian general aviation to get ahead of the mob or fly for free in an airliner in Indonesia to get ahead of the mob, what's the difference in principle. I don't agree with the principle but take it or leave it.

No wonder those HR types are always so happy!;)

Centaurus, an excellent post that highlights the problems facing an aspiring pilot today who is deciding where to spend their dollar.

The industry is changing rapidly, the old paradigms are fading. I suspect that it will not be very long before the supply of airline pilots in Australia comes from cadet schemes. The supply of pilots is decreasing. Their may be an over-supply today, although even there I think there may be a shortage of experienced pilots in the general aviation ranks.

The manufacturers are stating that there will be a shortage of pilots in the future. Student numbers are falling around the world but demand for experienced pilots is on the increase but there is also an increasing demand for pilots to already have the endorsements required and time on type, even in the lower ranks of GA employers let alone the turbine operators.

It is these pressures that are driving the increase of pay-to-fly overseas and it will happen in Australia. Until it does, expect to see an increase in people offering to fly for free.

Not-For-Profit vs For Profit; Fly For Free or Bring Home Some Bacon?
 

I agree wholeheartedly that no commercial pilot should fly for free for a business. I do not cast stones however at a pilot who offers his or her services for free to true not-for-profit organisations.

If, for example, a skydiving club is truly a club and they are not making any profit then I believe that it is acceptable for a pilot to participate as a member of the club and fly for free. If however anybody in that organisation is making money (ie skydiving instructors, aircraft owners etc) then the pilot should be making money (even if it is only in accordance with the legal minimum - the Award).

Towing gliders on the side; same deal: if nobody is making money then fine, volunteer but if anybody else is cashing up then the pilot is a scab for working for free.

FRQ CB

Never. !!! Have pride in yourself.

Angelflight YES. But thats the limit.

But aeropelican, isn't this what you did initially?

Some ratbag companies don't pay pilots at all during ground school and induction. Hopefuls rock up for this 'free' training, live locally at their own expense, then go on hold for a job that may never eventuate. And it's not just youngsters falling for this exploitation - some silly old buggers who should know better fall for it, too. One would at least expect the company to stump up for accommodation and meals. It's not as if they are offering training on the space shuttle; usually it's just a clapped-out GA type or something with a limited job market.
Any company that is this cheapskate is NOT doing proper maintenance either. Caveat emptor.

aeropelican - it would have worked better if you had taken the job but documented everything and prosecuted the employer (with the AFAP's lawyers) for the full amount of cash after, say, six months. :)

... might have taught them a lesson ;)

You guys make me smile ;)

Mummy buys you a PlayStation at age 5, a mobile phone at 10, motorbike at 12 & a car at 17. Mummy keeps wiping your arse & washing your clothes while you work for peanuts. Back at the ranch, a pilots wage continues to fall in real terms, second divorce leaving a trail of financial and relationship carnage with kids & ex.

Then there's experimental aviation where you can build a plane for less than mummy forked out for you job, hell, if you've got half a brain you could buy a certified plane for half list price, fly on your own terms, sh!t! Might even be fun again........

Be a pilot for a living? You can have that :}

Try journalism!

Too true Ranga! Fools and their parent's money....

It's much better flying what, when and how you want. :ok:

Ranga and Trojan, didn't you both go and get CPLs? And now sit on he sidelines throwing rocks cos it was all too hard? How much does your weekend PA68 job pay Trojan? Or do you do it for the love and thus feed the problem?

The good aviation jobs are out there, you just have to look harder. FY just gone worked 400hrs, had every weekend except 2 off, every public holiday off, 135k net. Not an airline.

And I do still love flying, so much so I hire my namesake about once month and go for a tool around.

Mach E Avelli,

I think those companies are called airlines these days.

j3

P.S. Hold Short, you really are a pissant.

The most compelling of reasons for airline companies to pay their staff during training and also for type rating is the quality of product. An organisation that renumerates pilots from the commencment of employment ensures that there are minimal financial distractions during a time when full focus is required to learn and pass a check.

Companies that don't pay pilots during training (and for type rating) telegraph the message that the welfare of their staff is secondary to profit. However, it is also a simple minded approach because as a result, the quality of the training is potentially degraded if there are financial worries held by the trainees. Low quality training = low quality operation.

Simply from a resource management perspective it makes sense to pay and pay well from Day 1. This approach would at least ensure that trainees are afforded a minimum of stress and distraction at a critical time and also would serve to attract a higher calibre of candidate.

J3, point I'm trying to make: I got a CPL at the arse end of 89' saw the way pilots behaved toward each other & decided piloting wasn't for me. Didn't fly for ten years, got back on the bike, worked commercially, realised that things were probably worse than my original decision early 90's. I had plenty of work available to me & I'm talking ME-IFR, night. I went down another track, earn't pretty good money and now fly on my terms, NOT Alan Joyce's.

You are working in a very volatile market. Your $135 gorillas could disappear tomorrow & I think you know it. Mix that with the latest generation to enter the workplace (my previous post) and the future for your industry doesn't look particularly bright.

Back to my point, nobody has me by the balls, not Joyce, not my present employer. If the show ended tomorrow, I'll be right. But that's from being patient & putting in a few hard yards.

I have a daughter that wants to fly, I continually say to her. Get another qualification first (which she is doing). Don't ever give anybody power over your future. Don't let some other bastard write your life story. Write it yourself.

Sorry Jack! No job, in any Industry is perfectly secure. As far as volatile is concerned, I traded glamour for one of the most secure aviation jobs around (I think). If I get made redundant, I'd be worried about your job also, don't ATCOs need pilots to paint circles with at Maleny?

It just amuses me that guys who got out of the Industry for their own reasons repeatedly come on here and spout how we are all welcome to it. Reeks of Confirmation Bias.

As I said J, if the show stops tomorrow I'll be right. Re-inforcing, people need to write their own story not let arseholes like Joyce write it. Don't worry about my job mate, I'll be alright ;)

And just out of interest, the last ATC's made redundant was a rort. Any of them that wanted a job could have had it the day after.

Meanwhile, back to the original point...;)

I assume that neither of you worked for free or sub-award pay? Everyone has their own path to lead, and it sounds like you both did well without prostituting yourselves.

True, particularly radio journalism. :ouch: Between starry-eyed kids who'll work for free and Reality TV relics (who also effectively worked for free during the reality shows, which is why the networks love them) there's not a lot of room left.

Worrals, I NEVER worked for free, given that my first paid flying job was PJE.....go figure! It helped that the PJE employer was a decent bloke. I got a caravan endorsement from it BUT.....I gave him a commitment AND return of service.

How many times have I got to say it (not directed at you woralls). You can let scumbags like Joyce & Buchannan dictate your future or you can work for principaled people like Mr Borghetti. I have made heaps of travel decisions that have cost me more (present Oshkosh trip) based on travelling with arsehole operators (Joyce). I will more than happily provide anybody with my last 12 months travel history to back up my mouthing off.

Regain control bro's

No worries Jack, it was a rhetorical question.

It was a pretty tough job market post 1989, a lot of companies did the right thing paid award wages, paid ground schools, didn't charge for endorsements, didn't have paid ICUS schemes and honoured the good old seniority system.

But then the bottom feeders come along, let people fly for free, expect people to instruct for free, under quote legitimate operators with the pilot flying for free even on government charters, dodgy endorsements, the old pay for ICUS scheme, dodgy night freight etc. But what makes you laugh these guys fly for free but then bitch that your mob won't give them a job and you patiently explain that the boss is actually laying people off due to your mob undercutting everyone-genius then goes, "i am happy to work for less than the award!"

A number of airline pilots have worked for free, to get those valauble hours, a large number have also worked for below award wage to get those magic 500 twin hours. Happily name a number but then the thread would get locked!

It seems to me that there is are two rather discrete realities being depicted regarding GA down under.

Scenario 1) As said earlier in this thead, there seems to be a real desperation in GA right now with a glut of low time pilots willing to stab each other in the back and generally demean themselves in order to land that first job.

Scenario 2) In other threads, some chief pilots and employers are complaining about the latest Gen Y's refusing to accept ground positions even if they are traditionally the ones which lead to flying work because they have this expectation that once they get their CPL they have some divine right to be a commercial pilot and are not interested in anything else.

Would it be fair to say the true reality lies somewhere in between?