Rejected Take-Off and Flight Time
 

Hi all,

I recently rejected a take-off prior to rotation in a C172 as PIC due to abnormal engine RPM and taxied back to parking. After performing a static full power check with an instructor, it was confirmed that it was below the POH specified take-off RPM range.

My question is; should this be recorded as flight time in my log book? I would think so but the advice I’ve received is that it isn’t clear cut and it may not necessarily be the case.

It was obviously a very short exercise and I’m not concerned about losing the tiny amount of PIC time.

My primary consideration here is compliance with the CASR:

REG 61.345
(3) The person must, as soon as practicable after completing each flight, record the following information in the person's logbook for the flight:
(f) the flight time (if any) flown in each of the following capacities:
(i) pilot in command;

REG 61.010
"flight time" as:
(a) a pilot: see regulation 61.080;

REG 61.080 - A person's flight time as a pilot is:
(a) the duration of the following flights:
(i) a solo flight by the person;

REG 61.010 defines the “duration” of a flight as
(a) for a flight in an aeroplane or gyroplane--the time from the moment the aircraft begins moving, whether or not under its own power, in preparation for flight until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

It was also a significant learning experience in making a quick command decision to ensure the safety of the flight and the purpose of the logbook is to serve as a record of your experience as a pilot. What would you do in this situation?

Yes - you log it. 61.010 is pretty clear. You were moving in preparation for flight after all.

... as per 61.010, it never came to rest at the end of the flight because it hasn't flown. Therefore you can add an infinite number of hours - you haven't completed the flight yet. Unless at some point you can do a landing after not taking off and so terminate the flight :)

Silliness aside, I have never (and will never) log time when I have had to taxi back after not getting airborne, I believe the intent is if you fly, log the time from when the aircraft started taxiing until it taxied to parking after the flight. No flight, no time to log.

(I also hope you were not charged - where I work we do not charge people when a flight is aborted prior take-off due to a problem like that)

I agree - log it. You were PIC, aircraft was moving under its own power. If nothing else it serves as a record of the experience / day.

You can record it in your log book, but I would suggest an entry without a time in the PIC (or dual) column. The definition in 61.010 is the definition of *duration* of a flight, not a definition of what is a flight. If you don't fly it is not a flight. I would hate to see what a school audit by CASA would make of people recording hours for non-flights in a student's log books. I would not allow my students to do it. Your log book though. Does it really matter? probably not but falsifying experience (even by a small amount) is something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I suppose you’re right, the CASR only defines the type of craft in which “flight” can be conducted and does not define the meaning of “flight” itself. I guess a generally accepted definition of flight would apply and on that basis I'd say a flight has not taken place.

I only want to work out what I'm required to do under the CASR and nothing else.

And no, I was not charged for it.

No ‘flight’, so nothing to record.


Nobody’s looked at the most important definition: That of “flight” in the Civil Aviation Act. It says, with my underlining:Funny thing is, under the ‘old’ rules and definitions you would have been able to log it as PIC time because - crazy as it may seem to some - you were PIC doing PIC stuff throughout, including the important decision to reject a take-off. That’s a few decades of ‘reform’ for ya....

The wing was flying. Definitely log it.

Might as well log it as a LOT of drivers have done many 'Parker pen' hours!-)

You need to focus on the donut not the hole.
You were PIC from the time you started the engine until you shut it down
It is PIC time.

Looks to me more like an exercise in pedantry.

You started the take off run, saw something you didn’t like and rejected the take-off. Taxied back did an engine run to confirm your initial observation and gave away the idea of flying that aircraft until the fault was rectified.

Good decision, good airmanship, congratulations. Take the elephant stamp and gold stars and wear them with pride. As for what you choose to write or don’t write in your log book? Truly of no consequence.

Arguably, that 30 or so minutes of ground time had more learning value and genuine experience than say 30 minutes of mindlessly staring out at the horizon at 5000 ft.

The local best and regulations-aligned practice is not to log such as flight time. Airline rules antipodean to you. :)

The same logic and similar definitions as quoted above, also applies for return from taxying which is an infrequent but common occurrence. Unlike RTOs that are actually very rare. The intent and movement for the flight are there, but flight itself wasn't and hence no logging of total time.

In practical terms, everyone would enter the flight in the log with details for the memory lane but only fill the startup and shutdown times, not the duration.

Congratulations on handling the event so graciously!

Guess it's related to how the civilian world also log engine running time, but always thought the military system of logging ‘airborne’ time (ie from take-off to landing) was far more representative.

How can the time an airline pilot sits at the hold in the departure queue be ‘flying’, but guess that’s why you divide an airline pilot’s total hours by 5 to get his actual experience! 😀

Absolutely log it. If you're ever asked about it in the future (say after the engine fails for another pilot) you have a record.

.. and if you write your memoirs in 30 years time, you can put in a line about the experience. ;)

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/360...g-stories.html

It feels like if you’re paying for it, it should go in the log book as experience. Better to have got that incident ticked off in your experience book now, rather than a Cherokee 6 full of passengers with 151 hours in your logbook on your first job.

Practical remark: For the PIC experience the decisions that need to be done when stuck in the holding line, with regards to de-icing holdover time, changing forecast at destination (/alternates), fuel required, any malfunctions and flight time limitations are among the most complex and difficult ones.

Not disputing your formula by the slightest., BTW :)

hat, coat, transporter beam...

The Military pilots don’t get paid depending on flying time 😉. Seriously though we can be de-icing , changing runways and recalculating performance or even delaying taxi speeds to comply with departure/arrival slots . All activities related to safe flight compliance but not flight experience. I would suggest dividing by 4 would be a little less harsh.

You pushback and taxi for departure. The place gets snowed in so you finally get back to the gate 2 hours later.

Are some here suggesting that the 2 hours you just spent taxiing around is NOT going to count towards Flight Time Limitations. Just ignore it?

The periods of 1 hr ahead, 2 hrs of activity, and 30 mins after count for duty time limitations / rest requirements. Block-block counts for pay and overtime thresholds.

But 0 flying time, so nothing added in the 900 yearly / 100 per 28 days limit.

Almost the same as taxing an aeroplane from the maintenance facility back to the terminal. But paid.

Mileage and roadsings may vary.

I'd log it, anytime you get in an aircraft and turn on the engine with the intent to get airborne it should be counted. It's not a matter of gaining "Experience" and you're not doing it for "Parker Pen Hours" or "BIC Hours", it's a matter of your logbook correctly reflecting what you've done for the day towards FnD hours.

As noted above as well, if you're in an Aircraft, taxi off and get delayed on the Tarmac for 2hrs are you just going to pretend you weren't out there for 2hrs? We all also include our taxi time in our logbooks so to now suddenly decide that time doesn't count seems a bit odd too. They don't specify what a "Flight" is so you need to think about what the spirit of your logbook is and the spirit of it is that it accurately records time you've spent in an aircraft in the duties of Flying as an accurate record of your experience and also in defence of your FnD hours you record should the relevant authority ever come knocking.

This is why Australia will never send a person to the moon

I have also seen plenty of military pilots add the additional taxi time to their total hours when applying for civilian jobs so it works both ways. Not many civilian pilots are able to start up taxi out and takeoff in one movement so I would suggest that the military pilots are getting bonus hours by adding the "taxiing" component.

You say you’re not concerned about it yet you ask if you should log it.
If this was a solo lesson to be performed you will do so at a later date and log that one.
Don’t log it and don’t get all worked up about definitions.
Under FAA you can log a lot of things but counting that towards a certificate of rating is a different story.
I know you’re not training under FAA but the rules are the same if not very similar.
Do not log anything you’re not 100% confident in explaining to either an Examiner or an Aviation Inspector.

Here is a litter scenario for you to consider:

Through no fault of yours you get a flat tire during landing and you end up getting towed to the ramp.
A friendly Aviation Inspector who’s there chatting with a charter pilot wonders over and asks you if everything is ok and what happened. He asks if he may see your logbook to verify your solo privileges.
He frowns.........then turns the logbook over to you and says: page 17 line item 3 what is all that about?
You go:.......uh :sad:

Don't know the case today, but in my time in helos it was legal for only time not in contact with mother earth that went in the maintenance log, ground running didn't count. On some jobs, to pull some figures out of the nether regions by way of example, you could spend eight hours sat at the controls running, but only three hours airborne, three went in the maintenance log, the customer got charged for eight, guess what went in the PIC column of the personal log.

Thank you all for your input
 

Thank you all for your input, that was an interesting read.

I'd like to just clarify that I'm trying to work out if there is a "requirement", not an "opportunity", to log the time. And yes, I'm just being pedantic.

Yes, I think it would be reasonable to conclude that this exercise did not fit the definition of "flight" as defined by the Civil Aviation Act and so there is no time to be logged.

Log it as it was for the purpose of a flight in my opinion, and document it correctly in your logbook. Not sure what the reg states today, however it once stated for the purpose of a flight. A rejected take off event in my humble opinion would comply with the reg.

That’s also the opinion of an ex CASA FOI who spent 4 years in the job.

Haha love this
so true!-)
this sure has been an interesting read, just goes to show that pilots are not united in anything!😂

Quote:

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This is why Australia will never send a person to the moon.

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Correct (sadly). Logbook rules are merely one example of the utter overkill that is the Australian aviation regulatory regime.

In the USA, FAR 61.51 only requires the recording of (1) training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of Part 61, and (2) the aeronautical experience required for meeting the flight experience requirements of Part 61.

Accordingly, in the USA, you don’t have to log ordinary, run-of-the-mill jollies. But you log the occasional flight to show, for example, that you’ve done 3 take offs and landings within the 90 days previous to today’s flight, to meet the recency requirements to carry passengers today, per FAR 61.57.

In Australia, you are of course a criminal if you fail to record each and every flight. And you’re also a criminal if you record in your logbook, as flight time, a period that never included a period in which the aircraft became airborne. It’s ‘safer’ this way.

(Time ‘on duty’ is a related but different concept than ‘flight time’.)

LB do you log "chock to chock" time or only "Wheels off and wheels on" in your logbook?

Where people use their log books to claim more experience than they really have is perhaps different from not recording every flight?

I know my books have some missed flights - not to mislead. If CASA want to question that - let them, I can't find the details on those flights so skipped them and just wrote "missing entries" and a block of dates with no time recorded, doubt CASA could find the details - if they could I would actually be grateful! :)

I sometimes have written an entry at the appropriate point stating as much and I record no time.

Do you really need to add 0.3 to your total aeronautical experience because you ran an engine up and couldn't clear a rev drop or had some other issue? (I have had one student get a sudden case of the runs during runup and had to taxi back promptly as close to the toilet block as I could whereupon he jumped out and waddled off). Up to you, go for it if you think it adds something to your resume but really? I wouldn't mind a beer for the times I have not taken off because of an issue but I would not think it worth adding to my record of hours. That just me. Legally I think you would not pass the requirements as you didn't make a flight despite what some say. (IMO)

All that said what people write in their log book is their business. I do shake my head sometimes though. I have watched one person sit down at the desk and write themselves as PIC for flights in their log book and not even put me down as other crew when I certainly was the PIC and they were under instruction (not under supervision).

I have heard some classics from colleagues who have come across brazenly fraudulent log books - one person caught out because my colleague had a photocopy of some pages of their log book kept with training records that were then sent to a new school and the photocopy told a rather different story of dual and solo flights to the log book presented to the new school.

Your log book though. But do you really need an extra 0.3 that bad? Like I said earlier - we would not even charge the pilot if that happened (unless the fault was their doing). Sensible choice to not fly? Yep. So is not flying if at the last minute you decide the weather is getting too dicey. Should you add a few tenths for that because it "made you a better pilot" or you showed good airmanship?

All my opinion of course. Others clearly have a different take.

Experience is in the pilot, not a logbook!!!!

If I get airborne, the flight time I enter in my logbook is ‘chock to chock’.

Wheels off to wheels on is aircraft ‘time in service’ that I enter in the maintenance release.

Likewise. This is/was also the requirement of every Company I worked for.

As to the OP's question re rejected T/O's; I did not log that time. Just my choice. Only ever been a few anyway.

OP, what are we talking about here ... point .3.. Make a comment in the entry that it was a rejected takeoff or some such. Shows and displays a level of airmanship to anyone reading your logbook.

In the scheme of things I totally doubt if anyone would really give a ...care...and I dare say CASA wouldn’t either. It is not like you are employing the VH BIC method.

AUSSIE Sky Gods pontificating over .3 in a Log Book...no wonder we are held in such high esteem around the world!!!

Company bull**** in their procedures or other crap doesn’t take precedence over regulations.

I had an APU fire in a Dash 8 and evacuated the aircraft at the holding point. I logged the time in my logbook, probably 0.3. If anyone wants to take me to task on the legitimacy of me logging that, bring it on!!!!

Why do people get so wound up? It’s just a discussion.

Here’s more to add to the discussion to wind people up
some added extra :)

Using the OP example. . . .
if the ground run (post RTO and return) was all good and the flight went ahead, would you or would you not log the time on the tacho that preceded the 2nd, and successful attempt?

Log everything! As long as it is genuine and not VH-BIC!

Trash 8 flex