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Rejected Take-Off and Flight Time

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Rejected Take-Off and Flight Time

Old 21st Dec 2020, 01:00
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Australia
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Rejected Take-Off and Flight Time

Hi all,

I recently rejected a take-off prior to rotation in a C172 as PIC due to abnormal engine RPM and taxied back to parking. After performing a static full power check with an instructor, it was confirmed that it was below the POH specified take-off RPM range.

My question is; should this be recorded as flight time in my log book? I would think so but the advice I’ve received is that it isn’t clear cut and it may not necessarily be the case.

It was obviously a very short exercise and I’m not concerned about losing the tiny amount of PIC time.

My primary consideration here is compliance with the CASR:

REG 61.345
(3) The person must, as soon as practicable after completing each flight, record the following information in the person's logbook for the flight:
(f) the flight time (if any) flown in each of the following capacities:
(i) pilot in command;

REG 61.010
"flight time" as:
(a) a pilot: see regulation 61.080;

REG 61.080 - A person's flight time as a pilot is:
(a) the duration of the following flights:
(i) a solo flight by the person;

REG 61.010 defines the “duration” of a flight as
(a) for a flight in an aeroplane or gyroplane--the time from the moment the aircraft begins moving, whether or not under its own power, in preparation for flight until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

It was also a significant learning experience in making a quick command decision to ensure the safety of the flight and the purpose of the logbook is to serve as a record of your experience as a pilot. What would you do in this situation?
captaincorrigan is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 04:47
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Yes - you log it. 61.010 is pretty clear. You were moving in preparation for flight after all.
esreverlluf is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 05:15
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... as per 61.010, it never came to rest at the end of the flight because it hasn't flown. Therefore you can add an infinite number of hours - you haven't completed the flight yet. Unless at some point you can do a landing after not taking off and so terminate the flight

Silliness aside, I have never (and will never) log time when I have had to taxi back after not getting airborne, I believe the intent is if you fly, log the time from when the aircraft started taxiing until it taxied to parking after the flight. No flight, no time to log.

(I also hope you were not charged - where I work we do not charge people when a flight is aborted prior take-off due to a problem like that)
jonkster is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 05:24
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Originally Posted by esreverlluf View Post
Yes - you log it. 61.010 is pretty clear. You were moving in preparation for flight after all.
I agree - log it. You were PIC, aircraft was moving under its own power. If nothing else it serves as a record of the experience / day.
ScepticalOptomist is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 05:35
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Join Date: Feb 2017
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You can record it in your log book, but I would suggest an entry without a time in the PIC (or dual) column. The definition in 61.010 is the definition of *duration* of a flight, not a definition of what is a flight. If you don't fly it is not a flight. I would hate to see what a school audit by CASA would make of people recording hours for non-flights in a student's log books. I would not allow my students to do it. Your log book though. Does it really matter? probably not but falsifying experience (even by a small amount) is something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 07:03
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From the reg: "......until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;"

As Jonkster says, there was no flight! Consider it a free learning exercise, a free ground exercise; certainly not a flight exercise. If you feel that you really must log it, put it at the back of your logbook somewhere as a matter of record.
CASA would be more likely to ping you for claiming flight time credit where it's not due than omitting to log 10 minutes ground time.
Mach E Avelli is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 07:04
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Originally Posted by jonkster View Post
You can record it in your log book, but I would suggest an entry without a time in the PIC (or dual) column. The definition in 61.010 is the definition of *duration* of a flight, not a definition of what is a flight. If you don't fly it is not a flight. I would hate to see what a school audit by CASA would make of people recording hours for non-flights in a student's log books. I would not allow my students to do it. Your log book though. Does it really matter? probably not but falsifying experience (even by a small amount) is something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I suppose you’re right, the CASR only defines the type of craft in which “flight” can be conducted and does not define the meaning of “flight” itself. I guess a generally accepted definition of flight would apply and on that basis I'd say a flight has not taken place.

I only want to work out what I'm required to do under the CASR and nothing else.

And no, I was not charged for it.
captaincorrigan is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 07:42
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No ‘flight’, so nothing to record.


Nobody’s looked at the most important definition: That of “flight” in the Civil Aviation Act. It says, with my underlining:
flight means: (a) in the case of a heavier‑than‑air aircraft, the operation of the aircraft from the moment at which the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking‑off until the moment at which it comes to rest after being airborne; and

(b) in the case of a lighter‑than‑air aircraft, the operation of the aircraft from the moment when it becomes detached from the surface of the earth or from a fixed object on the surface of the earth until the moment when it becomes again attached to the surface of the earth or a fixed object on the surface of the earth.
Funny thing is, under the ‘old’ rules and definitions you would have been able to log it as PIC time because - crazy as it may seem to some - you were PIC doing PIC stuff throughout, including the important decision to reject a take-off. That’s a few decades of ‘reform’ for ya....
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 08:17
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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The wing was flying. Definitely log it.
Eclan is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 08:40
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Smile

Might as well log it as a LOT of drivers have done many 'Parker pen' hours!-)
machtuk is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 10:12
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Originally Posted by captaincorrigan View Post
Hi all,

I recently rejected a take-off prior to rotation in a C172 as PIC due to abnormal engine RPM and taxied back to parking. After performing a static full power check with an instructor, it was confirmed that it was below the POH specified take-off RPM range.

My question is; should this be recorded as flight time in my log book? I would think so but the advice I’ve received is that it isn’t clear cut and it may not necessarily be the case.

It was obviously a very short exercise and I’m not concerned about losing the tiny amount of PIC time.

My primary consideration here is compliance with the CASR:

REG 61.345
(3) The person must, as soon as practicable after completing each flight, record the following information in the person's logbook for the flight:
(f) the flight time (if any) flown in each of the following capacities:
(i) pilot in command;

REG 61.010
"flight time" as:
(a) a pilot: see regulation 61.080;

REG 61.080 - A person's flight time as a pilot is:
(a) the duration of the following flights:
(i) a solo flight by the person;

REG 61.010 defines the “duration” of a flight as
(a) for a flight in an aeroplane or gyroplane--the time from the moment the aircraft begins moving, whether or not under its own power, in preparation for flight until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

It was also a significant learning experience in making a quick command decision to ensure the safety of the flight and the purpose of the logbook is to serve as a record of your experience as a pilot. What would you do in this situation?

You need to focus on the donut not the hole.
You were PIC from the time you started the engine until you shut it down
It is PIC time.
wombat watcher is online now  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 10:35
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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Looks to me more like an exercise in pedantry.

You started the take off run, saw something you didn’t like and rejected the take-off. Taxied back did an engine run to confirm your initial observation and gave away the idea of flying that aircraft until the fault was rectified.

Good decision, good airmanship, congratulations. Take the elephant stamp and gold stars and wear them with pride. As for what you choose to write or don’t write in your log book? Truly of no consequence.

Arguably, that 30 or so minutes of ground time had more learning value and genuine experience than say 30 minutes of mindlessly staring out at the horizon at 5000 ft.

lucille is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 12:31
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Only half a speed-brake
 
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The local best and regulations-aligned practice is not to log such as flight time. Airline rules antipodean to you.

The same logic and similar definitions as quoted above, also applies for return from taxying which is an infrequent but common occurrence. Unlike RTOs that are actually very rare. The intent and movement for the flight are there, but flight itself wasn't and hence no logging of total time.

In practical terms, everyone would enter the flight in the log with details for the memory lane but only fill the startup and shutdown times, not the duration.

Congratulations on handling the event so graciously!

Last edited by FlightDetent; 21st Dec 2020 at 20:36.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 13:14
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Guess it's related to how the civilian world also log engine running time, but always thought the military system of logging ‘airborne’ time (ie from take-off to landing) was far more representative.

How can the time an airline pilot sits at the hold in the departure queue be ‘flying’, but guess that’s why you divide an airline pilot’s total hours by 5 to get his actual experience! 😀
H Peacock is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 19:36
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Join Date: Aug 1998
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Absolutely log it. If you're ever asked about it in the future (say after the engine fails for another pilot) you have a record.

.. and if you write your memoirs in 30 years time, you can put in a line about the experience.

A few flying stories
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 20:22
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It feels like if you’re paying for it, it should go in the log book as experience. Better to have got that incident ticked off in your experience book now, rather than a Cherokee 6 full of passengers with 151 hours in your logbook on your first job.
Squawk7700 is online now  
Old 21st Dec 2020, 20:34
  #17 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Originally Posted by H Peacock View Post
How can the time an airline pilot sits at the hold in the departure queue be ‘flying’, but guess that’s why you divide an airline pilot’s total hours by 5 to get his actual experience! 😀
Practical remark: For the PIC experience the decisions that need to be done when stuck in the holding line, with regards to de-icing holdover time, changing forecast at destination (/alternates), fuel required, any malfunctions and flight time limitations are among the most complex and difficult ones.

Not disputing your formula by the slightest., BTW

hat, coat, transporter beam...
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 20:49
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Join Date: Jul 1999
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Originally Posted by H Peacock View Post
Guess it's related to how the civilian world also log engine running time, but always thought the military system of logging ‘airborne’ time (ie from take-off to landing) was far more representative.

How can the time an airline pilot sits at the hold in the departure queue be ‘flying’, but guess that’s why you divide an airline pilot’s total hours by 5 to get his actual experience! 😀
The Military pilots don’t get paid depending on flying time 😉. Seriously though we can be de-icing , changing runways and recalculating performance or even delaying taxi speeds to comply with departure/arrival slots . All activities related to safe flight compliance but not flight experience. I would suggest dividing by 4 would be a little less harsh.
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 21:08
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You pushback and taxi for departure. The place gets snowed in so you finally get back to the gate 2 hours later.

Are some here suggesting that the 2 hours you just spent taxiing around is NOT going to count towards Flight Time Limitations. Just ignore it?
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Old 21st Dec 2020, 22:44
  #20 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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Posts: 3,107
The periods of 1 hr ahead, 2 hrs of activity, and 30 mins after count for duty time limitations / rest requirements. Block-block counts for pay and overtime thresholds.

But 0 flying time, so nothing added in the 900 yearly / 100 per 28 days limit.

Almost the same as taxing an aeroplane from the maintenance facility back to the terminal. But paid.

Mileage and roadsings may vary.
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