There is an FOI named Nishi, definitely not Indian though. And having dealt with him I'd be very surprised if he was tied up with this sh1t

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That's especially true at Moorabbin where you have a dozen operators all doing the same thing.

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There are nowhere near a dozen operators doing FEE-HELP on Moorabbin airport. Oxford in a big way, The Aeroclub in a limited way. And Soar, BUT NOT ANYMORE!

I blame CASA. The stench of what was going on at Soar must have been overpowering. I’m mean I’m not completely stupid, but even I could see that my school was less than ideal within awhile of graduating with a PPL. RMIT similarly stunk to high heaven.

Okihara, I believe this issue has been brewing for a while now and the complaints were put in a lot longer ago than you'd think so wasn't just sitting there for 2 - 3 years and the way VET-FEE works it can be easy to end up a giant chunk of debt in very quickly as well plus the way it's setup is that people feel once they've made that commitment they're stuck with it and have no other options. It's a crap system overall to be honest, it would have been better if they'd provided a much wider range of Flight Training Providers that a Student could choose from and allow market forces to work things out better rather than a select few flashy ones with money that end up with near monopolies.

is it just me or does this make no practical sense at all?

Yes, perhaps it was the other way around.

As much as that would help with your anger management Sunny, I can't see how CASA are at fault here? CASA don't care if it takes you 200 or 2000 hours to get a CPL (and I actually don't think they should either). Collectively we bemoan that CASA have no mandate to promote aviation - they are the 'safety' authority and not responsible for making aviation viable or even fair. What Soar and RMIT have or haven't done for their students may be unconscionable, I can't see any evidence that it breaches the act, CASRs etc (putting aside who was flying what plane with what license/medical - and not knowing the whole RAA vs CASA story but assuming it is legal if done properly).

These students will have their best chance against Box Hill TAFE - it would seem pretty obvious that they have a duty of care to their students with respect to the flight training organisation they've partnered with. Even a basic level of due diligence should have set off alarm bells.
Soar will go out of business quietly - the money will already have left these shores. The students will get something back out-of-court from the TAFE (but not much) and very very few will ever get their CPL and the cycle will start again - check back again in 5 years time for the next instalment.

FEE-Help should be abolished. Aviation is expensive, these scams make it more expensive and waste the tax-payers money terribly. I'd wager that a fair number of the students caught up in this are now unlikely to ever hit the income threshold to repay the debt or if they do, they'll be saddled with it all their lives and never pay it back. They won't be able (or willing) to go further into debt - for this course or any other - and so won't likely have the same earning potential they could have.

Back to the old days of only rich kids learning to fly? With very few exceptions, most of the pilots I know who made a career of it either worked their backsides off to pay for lessons or came via the military. Add to that cadetships from airlines (based on fair t&cs - difference being airlines have an incentive to get it right and so should recruit properly) and as CASA continue to kill off regional GA then there shouldn't be a pilot shortage....

UTR

GA is in such a dysfunctional state on so many levels at the moment :ugh:

Meanwhile, Soar gives the impression that it's business as usual 50 is a fair bit off the 19 that the other article was mentioning.

The newspaper article said 19 graduates as at April 2019. So if they are up to 50 now then they have completed an additional 30 students in 9 months. Not many given they have had over 400 students this year.

The article also said that only 2 of the 19 were novices (ie; had started from scratch.) I wonder how many of the 50 have gone all the way with Soar.

I would be even more interested to know how many of the 59 have a job in aviation.

It seems to me that it does indeed make practical sense. They certainly couldn't do it the other way around.

UTR, you are correct. CASA has no statutory responsibility for the commercial conduct of SOAR. Morally ?

You’d be opening a can of worms if you’re asking for CASA to become the moral police as well.

It’s a competency based model. If it takes 1 or 10 lessons for the student to reach that level, then they are happy regardless. All they care about is that the ATO’s signature is on the required piece of paper or online form and all of the requirements have been met. It’s caveat emptor.

ATO?
 

The what now?
There haven’t been any ATOs for a long time now.
You mean ‘Flight Examiner’

Showing my age. The oldies know what I meant :-)

The real oldies will know what ATOs were called before ATOs were ‘invented’. Everything old becomes new again...

Actually to be really pedantic the HOO is the one who signs the form, FE can't do the test without that signature. NO idea how it works in RA Aus though.

Well, yes the person under CASR 61.235 (does not have to be the HOO) has some responsibility for recommending, as does the flight examiner that ultimately conducts the flight test, and issues a pass or fail assessment.
The person under CASR 61.235 and the flight examiner can be the same person in some cases, not including CPL tests.

Whoever buys the WeetBix?

CFI does all the tests and signs the papers, unless it's for another CFI. Then it's an Examiner of Airmen....or something.

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These students will have their best chance against Box Hill TAFE - it would seem pretty obvious that they have a duty of care to their students with respect to the flight training organisation they've partnered with. Even a basic level of due diligence should have set off alarm bells.

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Yep, back in my apprenticeship days, TAFE was fully government funded, free of commercial interest, free of greed. They were great days, taught by ex-tradies (with mangled limbs and bad backs). I had the great fortune of doing my CPL theory at Sydney TAFE, they were all crusty old bastards, current and recently retired pilots. Contrast that with what's happening at TAFE's now.

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Soar will go out of business quietly - the money will already have left these shores. The students will get something back out-of-court from the TAFE (but not much) and very very few will ever get their CPL and the cycle will start again - check back again in 5 years time for the next instalment.

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So true, the Australian way of doing business, soft white collar corruption at it's best.

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FEE-Help should be abolished. Aviation is expensive, these scams make it more expensive and waste the tax-payers money terribly. I'd wager that a fair number of the students caught up in this are now unlikely to ever hit the income threshold to repay the debt or if they do, they'll be saddled with it all their lives and never pay it back.

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It has it's place in not for profit educational institutions. Name me one of those in Australia these days. Even if there were you'd still have to deal with the rampant corruption and white collar thieves.

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Back to the old days of only rich kids learning to fly? With very few exceptions, most of the pilots I know who made a career of it either worked their backsides off to pay for lessons or came via the military.

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And those same people were patient, they knew they weren't going to get that shiny jet NOW. And didn't whinge when they weren't upgraded in under 10 years.

Wrong
 

No, you are categorically wrong.

That comment was likely in relation to RA-Aus ops.

How so? In the RAAus world, the Junior Instructor can't do anything except recommend someone for first solo, and send them on subsequent solos.
The Senior Instructor can send first solo.
The CFI does flight testing for RPC and Nav endo.
There are no ATOs or FEs as such..

My sincere apologies. I thought you were talking about GA. Disregard..

For some information - There is a difference between obtaining your CPL licence and graduating the course. To graduate you also need to complete one elective unit outside the CPL licence. At BHI/SOAR they have chosen for you "Operate In the Circuit at Night".

With many students going over hours its easy to see why they complete their licence and then do not finish the night flying - its extra cost to receive for just the diploma.

Can you complete the diploma and not have the CPL though?

This is a core (required) unit
https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/AVILIC0003

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Can you complete the diploma and not have the CPL though?

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Oh yes you can! If people signing up for these courses knew this was the case, maybe some people wouldn't sign up for the course.

Pretty sure you only need to be signed off as "Ready for the test" by passing pre licence to actually complete the unit, not pass the CPL flight test. Therefore in theory you don't. Im not 100% on that but its my understanding.

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Pretty sure you only need to be signed off as "Ready for the test" by passing pre licence to actually complete the unit, not pass the CPL flight test. Therefore in theory you don't.

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Correct.

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I'm not 100% on that but it's my understanding.

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You are now 100% full bottle.

Does anyone have access to the Herald Sun article 'Safety team closing in on cause of Moorabbin Airport accident'? If so, can you please provide the text?

I just googled the headline above and opened the article straight from google. You may need to clear any Herald-Sun cookies first for this to work.

Cache cleared. And doesn't work for me. Straight to subscription page.

Can't get past the paywall. Closing in? Usually they take at least two years to do a report

Article is subscription only - however the herald sun lets each device access their articles a certain number of times before the paywall pops up.

I doubt there’s much substance to the story, but happy to be surprised!

Tech info in the article as per info on the ATSB website

Safety team closing in on cause of Moorabbin Airport accident
Brittany Goldsmith, Moorabbin Kingston Leader
January 22, 2020 10:30am

The small plane that crashed at Moorabbin Airport in December pitched up steeply and twisted just before the smash, investigators believe.

The student pilot, aged in his 20s, was taken to Alfred Hospital where he was treated for serious head and lower body injuries but has recently returned home.

Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators are in the process of data recovery and are likely to soon have an answer as to how the student’s Bristell S-LSA aircraft flipped as he practised touch-and-go landings on December 12.

The plane landed on its roof, trapping the young pilot inside.

“During final approach for a touch and go landing, the aircraft is reported to have pitched up steeply and yawed resulting in collision with terrain … the aircraft was substantially damaged,” the ATSB said in a statement online.

“The ATSB will examine the accident site and the aircraft wreckage, interview air traffic control and other relevant personnel, and conduct data recovery.

“Should a critical safety issue be identified during the course of the investigation, the ATSB will immediately notify relevant stakeholders so appropriate and timely safety action can be taken.”

Yesterday an alarm flagged another plane in distress at the airport.

The plane landed safely and no-one at the airport would comment on reports a pilot ran into trouble near Bundoora Pde just after midday.

There have been two accidents in busy airspace in less than two years.

In 2018, Mornington Peninsula pilot Anthony Liddel was remembered for his heroic efforts as he dodged houses before his aircraft smashed into a suburban street in Mordialloc.

And in 2019 a pilot was lucky to walk away with minor injuries when a plane crash landed at Capital Golf Course on Centre Dandenong Rd.

There had also been a plane crash at the golf course in 2010.

The ATSB says it will release a report when its investigation into December’s crash has been finalised.

[email protected]

Too funny. Just GOLD :O

There had also been a plane crash at the golf course in 2010.

Was that the one in the Warrior where the media said the pilot had voluntarily jettisoned his wings?

There was one down on the golf course in June 2019 too. RAA registered Jabiru
https://www.pprune.org/pacific-gener...moorabbin.html