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-   -   Snoozing pilot misses landing - The Australian (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/615790-snoozing-pilot-misses-landing-australian.html)

LKinnon 26th Nov 2018 13:38

Snoozing pilot misses landing - The Australian
 
Need to be a brave passenger to fly Tasfast/Vortex Air, especially over water.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...b67105b80e74b1

Snoozing pilot misses landing

An investigation has been launched into an incident in which a pilot fell asleep during a one-hour charter flight, resulting in the aircraft overflying its destination by 46km. The 6.21am Vortex Air flight from Devonport to King Island on November 8

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....867659b426.jpg

Slezy9 26th Nov 2018 18:27


Originally Posted by LKinnon (Post 10320827)
Need to be a brave passenger to fly Tasfast/Vortex Air, especially over water.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...b67105b80e74b1

Snoozing pilot misses landing

An investigation has been launched into an incident in which a pilot fell asleep during a one-hour charter flight, resulting in the aircraft overflying its destination by 46km. The 6.21am Vortex Air flight from Devonport to King Island on November 8

Behind a paywall

Allan L 26th Nov 2018 19:40

ATSB investigation
Investigation: AO-2018-075 - Pilot incapacitation involving Piper PA-31, VH-TWU, near King Island, Tasmania, on 8 November 2018

Squawk7700 26th Nov 2018 19:59


Originally Posted by LKinnon (Post 10320827)
Need to be a brave passenger to fly Tasfast/Vortex Air, especially over water

Why is that exactly? Do you know something about the company or its’ pilots that we don’t? What are you suggesting here? Why “especially over water?” If the pilot is over land and asleep does that make the flight safer?


Aussie Bob 26th Nov 2018 20:31


Need to be a brave passenger to fly Tasfast/Vortex Air, especially over water.
What a dumb statement. It would appear (I don’t know) that the pilot was the sole occupant. A passenger would have changed the entire demographic of the flight. Again, I don’t know but isn’t this freight run?

I am so over “experts” making statements on incidents before the investigation is completed.

CAVOK92 26th Nov 2018 21:16

Not just over water. This is the same company that had a little bingle with some bollards at Mount Hotham and flew home with pax onboard. Also landed at a private ALA that was closed due runway maintenance. Don’t know how they missed the large X’s on the runway that were made out of tyres.

machtuk 26th Nov 2018 21:32

A lot of pilots would have fallen asleep briefly especially in these sorts of Ops where it's an early morning dep & that drone in smooth air would dull ones senses at times, fatigue is a hideous thing, ALL humans suffer from it! Hope they don't crucify the guy, gets help & learns from it as other can do:-)

LKinnon 26th Nov 2018 22:10


Originally Posted by Squawk7700 (Post 10321136)

Why is that exactly? Do you know something about the company or its’ pilots that we don’t? What are you suggesting here? Why “especially over water?” If the pilot is over land and asleep does that make the flight safer?

I have experience with the Vortex/Tasfast operations and am not surprised about this at all. Last time I looked their planes were held together by speed tape and fencing wire. The Tuckers have a "colorful" history.

The difference is that flying over land is likely to offer better "premature" landing options than flying over water.

Poorly maintained fleet, inexperienced pilots, inadequate management, Are they still charging for training and ICUS time?

Squawk7700 26th Nov 2018 22:41


Originally Posted by LKinnon (Post 10321208)
I have experience with the Vortex/Tasfast operations and am not surprised about this at all. Last time I looked their planes were held together by speed tape and fencing wire. The Tuckers have a "colorful" history.

The difference is that flying over land is likely to offer better "premature" landing options than flying over water.

Poorly maintained fleet, inexperienced pilots, inadequate management, Are they still charging for training and ICUS time?

Quite powerful words you are using there.

So you’re saying that due to pilot inexperience and poor maintenance, plus the fact that the pilot may have had to pay for their own training, has caused the pilot to fall asleep?

I hope that LKinnon is not a derivative of your real name.

Oakape 26th Nov 2018 22:47

Pilot flies nearly 50km past destination after 'falling asleep mid-air'


Despite this, the jet landed safely at 6.21am at King Island Airport

LKinnon 26th Nov 2018 22:58


Originally Posted by Squawk7700 (Post 10321233)

Quite powerful words you are using there.

So you’re saying that due to pilot inexperience and poor maintenance, plus the fact that the pilot may have had to pay for their own training, has caused the pilot to fall asleep?

I hope that LKinnon is not a derivative of your real name.

At Moorabbin walk past the Tasfast/Vortex planes and have a look for yourself. A lot of has previously been written here about "ICUS" and "training" programs run by these people, do a search.

What would have happened if the Tasfast/Vortex pilot had not woken in time? He would have run out of fuel over Bass Strait and the wreck would never be found.

It is not speculation, the plane was uncontrolled and headed out to sea because the pilot was asleep. I don't recall a similar situation with any other charter operator ever.

I would never fly Vortex/Tasfast nor would I let any of my family do so either.

Squawk7700 26th Nov 2018 23:06


Originally Posted by LKinnon (Post 10321244)
At Moorabbin walk past the Tasfast/Vortex planes and have a look for yourself. A lot of has previously been written here about "ICUS" and "training" programs run by these people, do a search.

What would have happened if the Tasfast/Vortex pilot had not woken in time? He would have run out of fuel over Bass Strait and the wreck would never be found.

It is not speculation, the plane was uncontrolled and headed out to sea because the pilot was asleep. I don't recall a similar situation with any other charter operator ever.

I would never fly Vortex/Tasfast nor would I let any of my family do so either.

But how did an allegedly poorly maintained plane and allegedly poor management of the company cause the pilot to fall asleep? Are you saying that carbon monoxide entered the cabin due to maintenance issues or perhaps the pilot was forced to illegally work additional hours, thus casing him to be fatigued? Where is the link?

On eyre 27th Nov 2018 00:08

LKinnon please show us the axe you appear to be grinding so fervently !!

LKinnon 27th Nov 2018 00:20


Originally Posted by On eyre (Post 10321270)
LKinnon please show us the axe you appear to be grinding so fervently !!

I have no specific axe to grind, however I've seen the Tasfast/Vortex Air operations as an outsider for several years and wondered about safety there. Lots of little things that seemed to happen consistently over the years and concerned me.

Once I had a look thru the windscreen of a Chieftain they operate for freight and noticed that the dash panel seemed to held together with wire, with old and decrepit avionics that I wouldn't trust. Also have seen tyres so bald the belts could be seen.

Other little things, like the side perspex windows covered with some sort of adhesive sheets. I assume this was because it was cheaper than replacing the perspex windows.

Other things that have worried me are the Vortex/Tasfast pilots regularly taxiing fast than I thought safe on the apron and parking in an ad-hoc manner outside of designated parking bays.

My guess is that CASA will be reviewing the Tasfast/Vortex Air Fatigue Management procedures. If I was a pilot there I'd be expecting drug and alcohol testing by CASA some time soon too.

Looks like this story has now been picked up the international media too, including CNN.

Squawk7700 27th Nov 2018 01:09


Other little things, like the side perspex windows covered with some sort of adhesive sheets. I assume this was because it was cheaper than replacing the perspex windows.
Don’t be so quick to jump to conclusions. The adhesive you speak of helps to keep the sun off the live crayfish as they need to stay cool and calm to be transported. All is not necessarily what it seems.



mikewil 27th Nov 2018 01:22


Originally Posted by LKinnon (Post 10321276)
with old and decrepit avionics that I wouldn't trust
.

Interesting observation. I made an enquiry a number of years back about doing my MECIR there as they were offering it in their chieftains and asked if their fleet was fitted with RMI and HSI. They rudely responded that some were and weren't but I shouldn't need them as an IFR pilot should be able to fly without them.

While the above statement is true, most IFR training in the 21st century is done using these instruments with only a bit of limited panel work done without. Not too sure I like the idea of an IFR charter operator conducting operations at night over Bass Strait in poor weather without an HSI.

Once again yes, its not mandatory and charter guys should be able to fly without them but they are pretty standard kit these days even in crusty old chieftains and it says a lot about an operator when they don't do at least some upgrades to modernise 50 year old instrumentation.

longlegs 27th Nov 2018 01:29

Same Tucker's as Promair formerly of Welshpool?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8c6839c82d.png
Promair PA31 Navajos VH-EYF and VH-BRL

Superfly Slick Dick 27th Nov 2018 01:33

Yes, it is the same family.

transition_alt 27th Nov 2018 01:40

I really have to laugh at how off the mark some of you blokes are, especially ol’ mate LKinnon.

Insight into an operation is a beautiful thing. Comments such as above is how general aviation operators can be destroyed off false facts in this amazingly regulated country we’re in.

For the record, Vortex Air aircraft have updated avionics. So both of you speaking have not had anything to do with the company for many years.

All their Chieftain’s have either a G430, 530 or GTN650 TSO146 gps fitted. All have HSI’s with dual instrumentation and others have Aspen PFD’s or Sandel electronic AH/ASI/ALT.

I have no idea how any of that is related to falling asleep and fatigue. But maybe the increased maintenance they have was not a blessing. If the autopilot didn’t work, he’d likely be more alert and potentially not fall asleep. I think it’s the 16 hour TOD approval that needs to be reviewed. But hey, who am I to speculate?

Toruk Macto 27th Nov 2018 01:52


Originally Posted by longlegs (Post 10321310)
Same Tucker's as Promair formerly of Welshpool?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8c6839c82d.png
Promair PA31 Navajos VH-EYF and VH-BRL

Thanks for photo , brings back memories ( some very sleepy on those early morning cray runs after a couple night freight runs first ) . 6 years flying them , one missing RRM ! Good times !

LKinnon 27th Nov 2018 01:54

Many times I've seen Tasfast or Vortex Air planes taxiing along the apron at speeds I thought were unsafe. There are four flying schools with many inexperienced student pilots using the same apron, as well as two fuel depots. It's just think it's not a good combination.

Other charter operators I've seen around the country seem to keep a tighter rein on (junior) pilots and it's left me with a poor opinion.

4 Holer 27th Nov 2018 01:56

Gotta learn to set your alarm 5 mins before the next waypoint or TOD... Standard night freight pilot ops 101.hahahaha

transition_alt 27th Nov 2018 02:04


Originally Posted by LKinnon (Post 10321320)
Many times I've seen Tasfast or Vortex Air planes taxiing along the apron at speeds I thought were unsafe. There are four flying schools with many inexperienced student pilots using the same apron, as well as two fuel depots. It's just think it's not a good combination.

Other charter operators I've seen around the country seem to keep a tighter rein on (junior) pilots and it's left me with a poor opinion.

You must be a Soar aviation instructor who taxis at half a knot blocking the taxiways.
Relax, I’m making a joke.

swells 27th Nov 2018 03:48

https://www.pprune.org/australia-new...ml#post7150717

it looks like the airlines chose well

YPJT 27th Nov 2018 04:43

swells, pure gold mate.
So tell us LKinnon why you believe someone, who by their own admission has a drug and alcohol problem, should be given any cred here?

Back Pressure 27th Nov 2018 04:51

Over the years I can't say I've ever seen Vortex taxying at unsafe speeds. Sure, they don't dawdle, and neither does any other commercial op.

porch monkey 27th Nov 2018 05:11

Hey swells, can't open the page anymore. I'm with you Toruk, 8 years there, got me where I am today. Good but hard times.....
4 Holer, obviously a little lacking in the tips and tricks department there these days.

Actually, got the page to open. Credibility 0.

Squawk7700 27th Nov 2018 05:28

The link is misbehaving so I’m posting it again just in case others missed it.

Summary: LKinnon by his / her own admission is a ecstasy taking pot head, unless I have somehow misread the post.

Again, I hope that LKinnon is not part of your real name as you’ve said a lot of dumb crap here today.

http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-...ml#post7150717

YPJT 27th Nov 2018 05:31

And just in case LKinnon thinks he can clean up his image and once again stand the moral high ground without fear of compromise. This is the text from the link above:

Drug and Alcohol Testing - Cadetship Screening
I am about to apply for a cadetship with a major airline.
In the advertisement they mention "Drug and Alcohol Testing" as part of the screening process.
I am young and enjoy a few drinks with my mates on weekends, and on occasion drink enough that I can't stand up.
Most weekends I also smoke a bit of pot and maybe once a year will drop an Ecstasy tablet when I go out to a dance club.
What I plan to do is abstain from booze and pot for two weeks prior to the test so that nothing gets picked up.
Does anyone have experience with these Drug and Alcohol Tests?
Will two weeks of abstination be enough?
Luckily I don't need to abstain from sex ;-)

ACMS 27th Nov 2018 06:09

Toruk Macto:——Did a few months on BRL RRM and EYF out of Welshpool around the traps as well.

Seems like yesterday.

On eyre 27th Nov 2018 06:17

Just to clarify - the original post heading is incorrect. The pilot did not miss the landing. He just carried it out a little later than planned - that’s what reserve fuel is for. 😳😳😳

john_tullamarine 27th Nov 2018 07:26

I have no knowledge of the operation so my comments are general.

For those who may think this is the first time a pilot has nodded off ... historically quite a common occurrence. I am aware of a few amusing incidents in like vein over the years. Shouldn't happen .. but, occasionally, it does. Probably the best tale involved a freighter with both the crew and the flight service guy nodding off ... when they eventually got back to where they were originally aimed (pre-radar days), there was a post flight discussion of sorts with a bit of amiable ducking and weaving on both sides ... Another beloved pilot had a squillion hours .. it was generally held that he really wasn't entitled to them as he was asleep for the great majority .. a few chuckling tales to be had from that career.

The sensible pilot, regardless of how alert he/she may be, puts strategies into place to guard against the problem, especially SP.

Capt Fathom 27th Nov 2018 08:22

Apart from the issue of being asleep at the wheel, I think the pilot will be in a whole world of hurt when Avmed get involved. They will have to prove there is nothing wrong with them medically, and that is likely to be time consuming and expensive. :(

YPJT 27th Nov 2018 09:04

Back in the 80s in my army years I was sitting RH seat in a Nomad doing low level ops for a couple of hrs. By the end the pilot was seriously nodding off.
Another anecdote I heard was of a pilot on a charter who let the pax in RH seat take over the controls and promptly dozed off. Woke up some distance past the destination.


Lat3ralus 27th Nov 2018 09:20

I don't think many of us can say that you haven't come close to noding off in our GA days. What the atsb will need to figure out is was it due to the pilot not getting adequate due to personal reasons(young family, etc) or due to insufficient/inadequate rest provided by the company. I will not speculate on this company in particular, but it wouldn't be the first time a small ga company has had a culture of making duty times "fit" their needs.

nonsense 27th Nov 2018 14:50


Originally Posted by Lat3ralus (Post 10321574)
...What the atsb will need to figure out is was it due to the pilot not getting adequate due to personal reasons(young family, etc) or due to insufficient/inadequate rest provided by the company...

Or perhaps due to something like untreated sleep apnoea...

Clinton McKenzie 27th Nov 2018 18:53

The poor bastard is in for the ‘the treatment’ from Avmed.

I’ve only once seen a crew member fall asleep. It was the PIC. I felt chuffed that he was relaxed enough to nod off with me in the right hand seat, technically unrated for the aircraft. I did reach for a couple of switches and controls to see if he was faking it.

Oh and by the way: He was a CASA FOI. (Note I said FOI, not ATO.)

smiling monkey 27th Nov 2018 19:50


Originally Posted by Clinton McKenzie (Post 10322074)
The poor bastard is in for the ‘the treatment’ from Avmed.

I’ve only once seen a crew member fall asleep. It was the PIC. I felt chuffed that he was relaxed enough to nod off with me in the right hand seat, technically unrated for the aircraft. I did reach for a couple of switches and controls to see if he was faking it.

Oh and by the way: He was a CASA FOI. (Note I said FOI, not ATO.)

Well, that's nothing new. I've heard a few stories of older generation ATOs falling asleep during flight tests and MECIR renewals.

Alpha Whiskey Bravo 27th Nov 2018 23:50

Yes I have had a wonderful ATO fall asleep on me during an IFR renewal before. We were on top of 8/8ths in the sun and he was very quiet. I snuck a peek out from under the hood to find him resting his eyelids. I had to reduce power to descend for the ILS and he woke up suddenly and said, "Whoops I must have nodded off." to which I replied, "What? you missed that last ILS? that's the best one I have ever done!" He was very apologetic and said we will have to do it again until he realised I was giggling at him. Still passed though!

John Eacott 28th Nov 2018 03:53

For sheer unadulterated boredom, ASW (anti submarine warfare) exercises in the Sea King come a close second to the 727 trans Tasman freight runs. Four hours of two pilots watching fully automated transition down to an auto hover where the sonar went down to ping for subs (& subsequently a coupled transition back up to cruise at nosebleed 200ft) would often result in at least one and sometimes both drivers doing some Egyptian PT, only to be rudely awakened when the back seat broke the silence on the intercom asking for a change of position. I’d sometimes read a spotters book of ships, but that just hastened the nap time.

Even more awkward when the back seat pair went quiet and all were woken by Mother coming over the radio.


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