Air NZ - Joint List
 

Hey guys,

Anyone heard the latest regarding this Turboprob seniority list joining to the bottom of the Jet list? Apparently it’s fallen through, which surely means turnover in the Links will go gangbusters again.

If Link Pilots think a joint seniority list will benefit them in anyway, I'm sorry to say, but they're deluded... this will only benefit the small handful of Pilots who have previously failed Jet interviews and could now (potentially) get another shot through the back door.

As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.

Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.

Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.

The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.

How will a joint list disadvantage link pilots if there is only X amount of jobs available in the jets regardless? The only thing i see it doing is stopping less senior link pilots jumping the queue by reinterviewing and bypassing more senior pilots (which include some who have no interest in going to the jets anyway)

Because seniority as the only metric, that early in a Pilots career, is more harmful than good. It also effectively locks out external Pilots from the joining the Jet Fleet and pushes more in favor of the Companies proposed Cadetship which is nothing more than a B Scale in disguise.

Interviewing Pilots for Jet Jobs based on experience is a much fairer system, an equalizer if you will, where Pilots who didn't fall into the "slot" from Day 1 are allowed the opportunity to Catch up. If you were lucky enough to Join the Links with 500 hours, you should expect to be there longer than someone who joins with 3000 hours.

In 2013/2014, Link Pilots were going to the Jet Fleet in droves. Link Captains were getting interviews after 6 months in the LHS, some were even still bonded. The Links were losing Captains faster than they could train them, all to Air NZ Jet. Air NZ even sent some Jet Pilots to fill in C&T roles, mostly at Eagle I believe. To make matters worse, even FO's from Cook/Nelson were hired into the Jets compounding the shortage of Link Captains. And it's not the first time this has happened either. In the mid 2000's, prior to the GFC, a handful of regional Pilots found themselves at Air NZ in as little as 18 months.

The current Crop of Link Pilots, especially those mid 20's ATR Captains, need to remember this. They got to where they are because of all the movement before them. They got to skip a few years of GA (or skipped it entirely) because of the movement that happened before them. Link Pilots have also been passed over for Jet Jobs recently because Mt Cook has trebled in size. How many jobs did that create? How many current Link Pilots would still in be in GA if Mt Cook hadn't expanded? The very reason most of you are stuck in the regional's is also the reason you got a job in the first place.

Regional Pilots seem to forget they aren't the only Pilots qualified to fly for Air NZ. In actual fact (no offence intended), they're the least qualified because externals require Jet Time. Without all the external recruitment, Air NZ would of been parking A/C faster than Emirates. The A320 fleet has roughly doubled in crew in recent years. 3-4 years ago we had around 800 Jet Pilots, we're now closing in on 1100. That is the reality of expansion. It creates Jobs, but it also means not all of those positions can be filled internally.

As for the GOP list, sure it might give you some certainty, but it will also add years onto your Regional Careers. It will also vastly reduce external applications. I realize Link Pilots don't care about externals, because they're "disloyal" or some BS like that, but without those externals, the Jet Fleet couldn't have expanded and likely, neither could the Links.

A GOP list is not required to solve this problem.

The Company created this problem by refusing to use Tag & Release. Any idiot could see what was going to happen long before this mess... many Link Pilots even went so far as to tell the company this! This has been a problem for years and yet they only try to solve it now? At the same time they're trying to push through a Cadetship to replace Second Officers.... I wonder why?

Like I said in a previous post, a GOP list will only benefit a handful of current Link Pilots, giving them another shot at the Jets. The rest would have gotten in on their own merits eventually. The real benefit to Link Pilots is in Tag & Release, protecting a seniority number for those who legitimately get held back. A newly hired Link FO is no more deserving of a Jet Seniority number than any other Pilot, and from the feedback I'm hearing, many of my colleagues agree. It also doesn't help the cause that words spreading of a handful of Link Pilots preparing to go to court if the GOP list eventuates and argue they're entitled to Seniority numbers based on their 15-20 years of Link service.

I realize this is probably turning into a bit of a rant as I'm pushed for time in writing this. At the end of the day, from what I'm hearing, Air NZ Jet Pilots are in support of creating a better pathway for Link Pilots, specifically Tag & Release, but that support is not in favor of a GOP list.

ElZilcho

Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.

From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.

Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.

The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.

Wasn't that long ago that those 320s were flown by someone else either...:\

Perhaps 27/09, but one who also went through the Links.

Eagle Pilots covered some of Mt Cooks expansion, but certainly not all of it. Several of them joined the Jet Fleet and plenty of others left the group entirely.
The Jet Fleet has seen an increase of 300 total Pilots while retiring both the 767 and 737 fleets.
My Comments had nothing to do with Link Pilots being unable to fly Jets, but you cant run a shortened A320 course for Link Pilots like we did for those from Jetstar.

Yep, thats right, the 120 Eagle pilots supplied "most" of those THREE HUNDRED expansion slots - seems legit....

And aren't you lucky that Air NZs requirement that "outside" (read, disloyal) pilots need to have jet experience already skews interview selection in the favour of regional pilots....(but nice effort in trying to imply that an Air NZ company hiring policy is anything to do with current "jet" pilots suggesting that "their" jet job is more difficult than Jetstar or Virgin).

InZed be cautious around "MORE A321s", it means that they have converted some 320D options to 321Ds, it doesn't mean that 7 MORE A320 family aircraft than originally planned are coming - it doesn't represent an increase in numbers...yet. From 30 to 42 in five years is extremely optimistic, the 13 aircraft on order currently are replacements, not expansion - the only growth will be in lease aircraft that may or may not be kept.

KiwiAvi8er, "If the current recruitment model was in the interests of link pilots...", I ask you - why should the recruitment model be just in the interests of link pilots? What special thing has a "Link" pilot done to usurp the rights of all other New Zealand pilots, and all other NZALPA pilots? Before you shout "loyalty", remember entire generations of Eagle pilots joined with just one airline in mind - Cathay. That you are employed by the largest employer in NZ doesn't guarantee loyalty, just that the odds on being hired by them was already far better than even. Unless you specifically turned down Air Nelson for just Mt Cook, or Eagle for Air Nelson (and some might in that case!), or to make the point more clearly, didn't take that GBA job because you only wanted the mighty Aztec gig at Mountain Air, then I'd suggest you just took the first job offered - like most of us did. If Link weren't hiring at the time you joined, are we to believe you wouldn't have taken an Origin, or Air Chats gig on offer and stuck with GA for many more years at $10/hr? Such is the nebulous nature of "loyalty". You may have been loyal, it doesn't mean that those employed elsewhere are disloyal.

"The failed interview as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet..."
We have one, it's called an interview. Isn't what you're advocating here just an interview in seniority order? Is this what is being achieved right now by way of the 70:30 process? It's a "misnomer" to suggest that the only way to achieve this is through a GOP list.

"One or two of the pilots I've seen in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes...." (My bolding)
We all probably have an account similar to this, the first thing this highlights about all of us is how good we think we are at spotting things that the experts don't (Dunning-Kruger perhaps?), the second is that the proof is in the pudding. Out of 1050 "jet" pilots (FYI, nobody at AirNZ "jet" calls themselves this), there are very few bad eggs - perhaps, by and large the process works? All of this ignores the fact that the big issue everyone seems to have is with the selection of interviewees - clearly an HR function (with a little bit of "help" from the affected link management).

"It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operator whilst leaving (the) Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interview due to a manpower shortage. Thats in the company and majority of regional pilots interests".
"Manpower shortage" has been coming for some time, it starts well below Link level, and was rather well hidden by the GFC - the time to act was then, now that its here, the fix is to throw money at it, not turn it into a cost-saving exercise during record profits and supply side shortage. Furthermore, whilst being selected in seniority order may suit you at the top of the command list and stem the exodus from the left seat, any very junior F/O, even ignoring any potential cadet S/Os, may well think 10-12 years to a "jet" job too long, not enough of a return on their investment, and "up-sticks" anyway. Hooray! We've just moved the shortage to the right seat - and by extension, the left seat years down the track. That is not in the company's interest.
"...bypassing" assumes it was a particular persons position in the first place and smacks of self-interest. There is nothing necessarily wrong with self-interest, just be aware of the possibility that your self-interest may different to other's self-interest. Along those lines, you will have seen the communication put out by Link project leads about a small cadre of senior Link pilots rumoured to be interested in making a play for jet commands once lists are joined - can you see why "jet" pilot self-interest may be different to theirs? And that theirs (if true) show very little regard for yours. I'd suggest that rumour alone is responsible for the lukewarm reception the GOP is now getting, perhaps you could start there?
"...being held back" is wholly in the control of HR and Link management.

Brakerider, "Wasn't that long ago that those 320s were flown by somebody else either..."
That'd be SIX aircraft right? Not 30. And they didn't have interviews either....

Overwhelmingly, I'm astounded by the implication that the "jet" guys are trying to pull the ladder up after them (out of self-interest, though no one can say what the motivation might be - we're "grand-personed" remember?), but the possibility that the intentions of previously failed interviewees, candidates that couldn't compete against overseas kiwi passport-holders CV or overlooked, extremely senior Link guys are entirely pure. This project, by and large, is being presented as a package - not all of the component pieces can be implemented in isolation - it requires "jet" guys and girls to concede some of their conditions for you, it may be worth the price, it may not (most of us agree in principle with the concepts), but at least be polite.

Quite possibly, although the actual number of Pilots who left the links only to get re-hired by Air NZ after 1-2 years would be very low. To the best of my knowledge, most of the ex-Link pilots who were hired from the Aussie Jet operations left the links some years before all this happened. But the perception is definitely there, and I suspect it's been driven by a handful of Eagle Pilots who "got lucky" (so to speak).

Morale was pretty low at Eagle a few years ago, before they announced the closure. Air NZ had stopped hiring internally and Eagle were selling A/C and cancelling routes. About this time, I gather a handful of Pilots left Eagle for greener pastures... 6 months later Eagle closure was announced. Many of them (not all) have since been picked up by Air NZ. This obviously sent a big message to the Link group and others followed suit, but I'm not sure how many of them have found their way back. I suspect those Eagle Pilots just had incredible timing.

All Air NZ need to do to solve this, be it now or in the future, is to interview suitably qualified Link Pilots and, on successful completion of the interview, Tag & Release them back to the Links.

Tag and Release and Group seniority are very different.

Tag and Release means a Link Pilot who cannot be released from their current position is given a Reserved seniority number on the Air NZ list after a successful interview.
Group Seniority combines the Air NZ and Regional lists into one, giving everyone bidding rights for positions within the entire group. All new hires would start at the bottom of the list. i.e. an external hire from Cathay (for example) might start on the A320, but has a seniority number at the very bottom of the list including all Link Pilots.

I haven't yet heard any opposition to Tag & Release, only the GOP list.The company will add Pilots to the Air NZ list at a ratio of 70:30 Internal vs External. This means, if we hire another 100 external Pilots (30%), they need to add 230 (70%) "Tag & Release Pilots" to the list. This has the potential to snowball of course, depending how many more externals we need to hire, but it's still preferable to a GOP list as it can be done without any modifications to existing CEA's.

I can see how this may be favourable for Link pilots, but Naive to think that any experienced Jet pilot would join the queue behind 400 turboprop pilots. Unless the company expect the queue for turboprop jobs to get longer?

Bolded: I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by twisting my words. Least qualified doesn't imply Regional Pilots cant do the job. Many of the externals we hired were already type rated on our Aircraft or similar types. We ran shortened courses for Jetstar Pilots to help alleviate the A320 crewing crises, and (unlike Euro Airlines), our A320 course was designed for existing Air NZ Pilots and not a "first Jet" course. I believe they have since modified it and/or added an extra 2 weeks for T-Prop Pilots to transition. And for what it's worth, yes, a Cathy Cadet if hired as an SO would be "more qualified" as they have experience operating in that environment.

I'm not sure why Link Pilots get so offended when someone points out that existing Jet Pilots are more qualified to fly Jets. With hundreds of former Link Pilots at Air NZ, it's obvious you're perfectly capable, but, in times of expansion, it just makes sense to bring in some more external experience. It also makes very little sense robbing Paul to pay Peter (i.e. grounding Regional A/C to Crew the Jets).

But lets talk about putting Air NZ on a pedestal for a moment... all this fuss about a job at Air NZ when almost every Airline in the South Pacific is hiring. Who's really putting on the pedestal here?

As for for the last comment about "Jet boys" not looking out for your best interests, well, I guess time will tell. If you're near to Top of the RSL, then I suppose it's hard to see the negatives and no one will convince you otherwise. Those at the bottom might not see at first, but when they realize no amount of hard work will get them any closer to an interview, they might not be so enthusiastic. Plenty of Link pilots who took quick commands due to past experience and/or less desirable bases landed Air NZ interviews out of seniority. Some might not agree with that, but I for one am not among them.

Don't be in such a rush to have the rest of your career dictated by Seniority. It's both a blessing and a curse.

What happened to the Propstar drivers that interviewed was also terrible on Air NZ's part. To offer these guys interviews, tell them they were successful but unable to offer a position was a real kick in the teeth. I 100% see where the Link guys are coming from, but to say these guys are less suitable or qualified than a Cathay SO who hasn't landed a plane since the Tomahawk he flew at flying school is ridiculous.

There is currently a supply issue because the Company have scared away all externals. There are some very simple solutions to guaranteeing Link / GA supply but those won't make the Company money.

Just checked numbers and currently there are 180 SO, so thats 18 MILLION dollars per year they can save by getting rid of the SO pay scale and introducing a cadet / B scale. Thats significantly more than the cost to the Company of the SO pay issue, massively more in fact.

The Company certainly has an issue, but its entirely of their own making. Pilots have been giving them these warnings for a long time, giving the solutions as well but the Company won't listen. They are going to have to be very careful as the market is changing. More guys are going to look at the money on offer overseas and wonder why they are hanging around Air NZ. $25k USD per MONTH to fly in China is going to be very attractive.

RubberDog,

"External" does not mean overseas, it means external to the Air NZ group. The requirements for the jet positions are the same for anyone outside the Air NZ group.

Also, external turboprop drivers are not being told yes and then having to wait for a start date, they are being told "You interviewed well but for political reasons we are unable to hire you, how about joining one of the link airlines?"

Finally, I'm pretty sure there was a Cathay cadet on a June interview who was given a yes.

Firstly, "External" refers to anyone not currently in the Link group, not specifically to foreign/overseas applicants. So a Kiwi Pilot, flying for Virgin (for example) is still an external.

Secondly, as RubberDog already stated, one of the "Cathay SO's" that I've met was ex RAAF. The others (who I've met anyway) might have started as SO's/Cadets but were FO's when they came to Air NZ. It never ceases to amaze me how people on these forums are so quick to rubbish the experience of others. Do you have access to all these "unworthy" Cathay Pilots CV's?

Third, the recent Pathways communication said the Company will be adding Link Pilots to the Air NZ list at the rate of 70:30, meaning for every external hired, 3 Link Pilots get on the GOP list. So does it really matter where these externals are coming from? Link Pilots are getting their Tag & Release number.

Lastly, who the F:mad: do some of you think you are? It just screams of an entitlement complex when you jump online and start rubbishing other Pilots because you deem them somehow unworthy. It's been stated countless times that Link Pilots are being skipped over, not because they can't do the job, but because they can't be released due to crewing levels. Whoever the Company hires, they still need to pass the interview, Type Rating and Line Training. So if Cathay Cadets are managing, then who are any of you to judge them? The Airbus crewing crisis is (mostly) over.. although Commands are getting lower and lower on the list, so the demand for Jet Time, specifically Airbus time, is no longer required. It also doesn't help. (as has already been pointed out), that many of the more experienced externals are pulling their applications because it's simply not worth joining behind hundreds of regional Pilots... there's better Jobs elsewhere.

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Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a response to the general tone of the thread.

It ("external") never used to be Aerocat, but then nobody currently flying in NZ ever needed jet time either! How exactly would they get that, in New Zealand? Given AirNZ are the major jet operator in the country, you could hardly be reasonably expected to rock up with jet time could you? Never had to, countless Eagle, Air Nelson, Mt Cook, Origin, Air National, Rex, etc pilots will attest to that. I am trying to clear up the distinction between "external", non-group but still NZ resident pilots vs "external", to New Zealand, pilots.

As for the requirements being the same, are the interviewees from propstar, New Zealanders, or are they deemed to be Australian? (And therefore require jet time?)

I guess the "political reasons" would be something to do with 70:30, no? Hiring 3 Propstar pilots actually means hiring 10. Is that something the company wants or needs? And I'd suggest given the limbo that the pathways project is in, with no clear view on whether a new-joiner is about to "jump the queue" of long-suffering Link pilots and upset them some more, or whether the successful candidate is about to end up 600 people lower down the list than they thought, perhaps they playing it safe?

I guess that Cadet generated 1.5-ish other positions in that case? Is he a Kiwi, with GA experience, or a HKG national, genuinely at 250hrs and a Cathay P2X "type-rating"?

I dunno about cadets being FOs on ATRs flying into dodgy 1400m long New Zealand runways built cynically in directions that aren’t into the prevailing and gusty winds..call me old fashioned but that requires a little GA time..

That can easily be solved via Captains only approaches and/or more restrictive met conditions for junior FO's.

They certainly wont learn how to operate in the Link environment by sitting in the middle seat of a widebody for 2+ years,