Air NZ - Joint List
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Air NZ - Joint List
Hey guys,
Anyone heard the latest regarding this Turboprob seniority list joining to the bottom of the Jet list? Apparently it’s fallen through, which surely means turnover in the Links will go gangbusters again.
Anyone heard the latest regarding this Turboprob seniority list joining to the bottom of the Jet list? Apparently it’s fallen through, which surely means turnover in the Links will go gangbusters again.
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Hi Kiwi,
i have heard it’s still in the “straw man” phase. I don’t think everybody is discounting a join of lists. It’s more of a “let’s talk about this some more” situation.
Have you done the math on how long it would take you to be senior enough to join the Jets? There’s nearly 1100 jet pilots and 600 odd Link Pilots. With a current and forecast retirements averaging 20-30 a year from the jets, IF you joined the Links today you can easily expect to wait 20 odd years for a FO320 or SO787/777 job!! (Unless we expand
Once the Link guys realise they’ve got to wait that long for an entry level position you will then see “turnover at the Links going gangbusters again”.
Just my two cents worth as it doesn’t affect me, How about keep both Jet and Regional seniority list separate but interview (a loose term) from the top of the Regional seniority list down? Let’s everybody have a piece of the pie.
i have heard it’s still in the “straw man” phase. I don’t think everybody is discounting a join of lists. It’s more of a “let’s talk about this some more” situation.
Have you done the math on how long it would take you to be senior enough to join the Jets? There’s nearly 1100 jet pilots and 600 odd Link Pilots. With a current and forecast retirements averaging 20-30 a year from the jets, IF you joined the Links today you can easily expect to wait 20 odd years for a FO320 or SO787/777 job!! (Unless we expand
Once the Link guys realise they’ve got to wait that long for an entry level position you will then see “turnover at the Links going gangbusters again”.
Just my two cents worth as it doesn’t affect me, How about keep both Jet and Regional seniority list separate but interview (a loose term) from the top of the Regional seniority list down? Let’s everybody have a piece of the pie.
If Link Pilots think a joint seniority list will benefit them in anyway, I'm sorry to say, but they're deluded... this will only benefit the small handful of Pilots who have previously failed Jet interviews and could now (potentially) get another shot through the back door.
As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.
Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.
Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.
The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.
As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.
Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.
Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.
The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.
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How will a joint list disadvantage link pilots if there is only X amount of jobs available in the jets regardless? The only thing i see it doing is stopping less senior link pilots jumping the queue by reinterviewing and bypassing more senior pilots (which include some who have no interest in going to the jets anyway)
Because seniority as the only metric, that early in a Pilots career, is more harmful than good. It also effectively locks out external Pilots from the joining the Jet Fleet and pushes more in favor of the Companies proposed Cadetship which is nothing more than a B Scale in disguise.
Interviewing Pilots for Jet Jobs based on experience is a much fairer system, an equalizer if you will, where Pilots who didn't fall into the "slot" from Day 1 are allowed the opportunity to Catch up. If you were lucky enough to Join the Links with 500 hours, you should expect to be there longer than someone who joins with 3000 hours.
Interviewing Pilots for Jet Jobs based on experience is a much fairer system, an equalizer if you will, where Pilots who didn't fall into the "slot" from Day 1 are allowed the opportunity to Catch up. If you were lucky enough to Join the Links with 500 hours, you should expect to be there longer than someone who joins with 3000 hours.
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
If Link Pilots think a joint seniority list will benefit them in anyway, I'm sorry to say, but they're deluded... this will only benefit the small handful of Pilots who have previously failed Jet interviews and could now (potentially) get another shot through the back door.
As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.
Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.
Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.
The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.
As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.
Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.
Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.
The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.
The failed interview pilots as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet is approved (such as an assessment sim). One or two of the pilots I’ve seen get through the recruitment board in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes to how clearly it can be luck of the draw and that a pilot that fails a R2G isn’t necessarily the ‘unwashed’ you fear so much.
Any pilot joining the Links now is going to be a long time to Air NZ jet regardless of a GOP list, as they had been interviewing roughly based on tenure at the company anyway. It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operater whilst leaving Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interviews due to a manpower shortage. That’s in the company and majority of regional pilots interests.
Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
A joint list will clearly benefit regional pilots, how that can be disputed is beyond me. If you think the current recruitment model (prior to the 70:30 ratio) was in the interests of link pilots, it shows how out of touch you are with regional. Almost all interview slots were filled with externals, some ex Jetstar cadet pilots and the tipping point being a few Jetstar Dash drivers attending a panel.
The current Crop of Link Pilots, especially those mid 20's ATR Captains, need to remember this. They got to where they are because of all the movement before them. They got to skip a few years of GA (or skipped it entirely) because of the movement that happened before them. Link Pilots have also been passed over for Jet Jobs recently because Mt Cook has trebled in size. How many jobs did that create? How many current Link Pilots would still in be in GA if Mt Cook hadn't expanded? The very reason most of you are stuck in the regional's is also the reason you got a job in the first place.
Regional Pilots seem to forget they aren't the only Pilots qualified to fly for Air NZ. In actual fact (no offence intended), they're the least qualified because externals require Jet Time. Without all the external recruitment, Air NZ would of been parking A/C faster than Emirates. The A320 fleet has roughly doubled in crew in recent years. 3-4 years ago we had around 800 Jet Pilots, we're now closing in on 1100. That is the reality of expansion. It creates Jobs, but it also means not all of those positions can be filled internally.
As for the GOP list, sure it might give you some certainty, but it will also add years onto your Regional Careers. It will also vastly reduce external applications. I realize Link Pilots don't care about externals, because they're "disloyal" or some BS like that, but without those externals, the Jet Fleet couldn't have expanded and likely, neither could the Links.
Any pilot joining the Links now is going to be a long time to Air NZ jet regardless of a GOP list, as they had been interviewing roughly based on tenure at the company anyway. It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operater whilst leaving Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interviews due to a manpower shortage. That’s in the company and majority of regional pilots interests.
The Company created this problem by refusing to use Tag & Release. Any idiot could see what was going to happen long before this mess... many Link Pilots even went so far as to tell the company this! This has been a problem for years and yet they only try to solve it now? At the same time they're trying to push through a Cadetship to replace Second Officers.... I wonder why?
Like I said in a previous post, a GOP list will only benefit a handful of current Link Pilots, giving them another shot at the Jets. The rest would have gotten in on their own merits eventually. The real benefit to Link Pilots is in Tag & Release, protecting a seniority number for those who legitimately get held back. A newly hired Link FO is no more deserving of a Jet Seniority number than any other Pilot, and from the feedback I'm hearing, many of my colleagues agree. It also doesn't help the cause that words spreading of a handful of Link Pilots preparing to go to court if the GOP list eventuates and argue they're entitled to Seniority numbers based on their 15-20 years of Link service.
I realize this is probably turning into a bit of a rant as I'm pushed for time in writing this. At the end of the day, from what I'm hearing, Air NZ Jet Pilots are in support of creating a better pathway for Link Pilots, specifically Tag & Release, but that support is not in favor of a GOP list.
ElZilcho
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.
Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.
The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.
Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.
The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.
Originally Posted by 27/09
ElZilcho
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.
Originally Posted by 27/09
ElZilcho
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.
Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.
The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.
Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.
The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.
Perhaps 27/09, but one who also went through the Links.
Eagle Pilots covered some of Mt Cooks expansion, but certainly not all of it. Several of them joined the Jet Fleet and plenty of others left the group entirely.
The Jet Fleet has seen an increase of 300 total Pilots while retiring both the 767 and 737 fleets.
My Comments had nothing to do with Link Pilots being unable to fly Jets, but you cant run a shortened A320 course for Link Pilots like we did for those from Jetstar.
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Originally Posted by 27/09
ElZilcho
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.
Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.
Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.
From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.
Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.
And aren't you lucky that Air NZs requirement that "outside" (read, disloyal) pilots need to have jet experience already skews interview selection in the favour of regional pilots....(but nice effort in trying to imply that an Air NZ company hiring policy is anything to do with current "jet" pilots suggesting that "their" jet job is more difficult than Jetstar or Virgin).
InZed be cautious around "MORE A321s", it means that they have converted some 320D options to 321Ds, it doesn't mean that 7 MORE A320 family aircraft than originally planned are coming - it doesn't represent an increase in numbers...yet. From 30 to 42 in five years is extremely optimistic, the 13 aircraft on order currently are replacements, not expansion - the only growth will be in lease aircraft that may or may not be kept.
KiwiAvi8er, "If the current recruitment model was in the interests of link pilots...", I ask you - why should the recruitment model be just in the interests of link pilots? What special thing has a "Link" pilot done to usurp the rights of all other New Zealand pilots, and all other NZALPA pilots? Before you shout "loyalty", remember entire generations of Eagle pilots joined with just one airline in mind - Cathay. That you are employed by the largest employer in NZ doesn't guarantee loyalty, just that the odds on being hired by them was already far better than even. Unless you specifically turned down Air Nelson for just Mt Cook, or Eagle for Air Nelson (and some might in that case!), or to make the point more clearly, didn't take that GBA job because you only wanted the mighty Aztec gig at Mountain Air, then I'd suggest you just took the first job offered - like most of us did. If Link weren't hiring at the time you joined, are we to believe you wouldn't have taken an Origin, or Air Chats gig on offer and stuck with GA for many more years at $10/hr? Such is the nebulous nature of "loyalty". You may have been loyal, it doesn't mean that those employed elsewhere are disloyal.
"The failed interview as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet..."
We have one, it's called an interview. Isn't what you're advocating here just an interview in seniority order? Is this what is being achieved right now by way of the 70:30 process? It's a "misnomer" to suggest that the only way to achieve this is through a GOP list.
"One or two of the pilots I've seen in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes...." (My bolding)
We all probably have an account similar to this, the first thing this highlights about all of us is how good we think we are at spotting things that the experts don't (Dunning-Kruger perhaps?), the second is that the proof is in the pudding. Out of 1050 "jet" pilots (FYI, nobody at AirNZ "jet" calls themselves this), there are very few bad eggs - perhaps, by and large the process works? All of this ignores the fact that the big issue everyone seems to have is with the selection of interviewees - clearly an HR function (with a little bit of "help" from the affected link management).
"It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operator whilst leaving (the) Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interview due to a manpower shortage. Thats in the company and majority of regional pilots interests".
"Manpower shortage" has been coming for some time, it starts well below Link level, and was rather well hidden by the GFC - the time to act was then, now that its here, the fix is to throw money at it, not turn it into a cost-saving exercise during record profits and supply side shortage. Furthermore, whilst being selected in seniority order may suit you at the top of the command list and stem the exodus from the left seat, any very junior F/O, even ignoring any potential cadet S/Os, may well think 10-12 years to a "jet" job too long, not enough of a return on their investment, and "up-sticks" anyway. Hooray! We've just moved the shortage to the right seat - and by extension, the left seat years down the track. That is not in the company's interest.
"...bypassing" assumes it was a particular persons position in the first place and smacks of self-interest. There is nothing necessarily wrong with self-interest, just be aware of the possibility that your self-interest may different to other's self-interest. Along those lines, you will have seen the communication put out by Link project leads about a small cadre of senior Link pilots rumoured to be interested in making a play for jet commands once lists are joined - can you see why "jet" pilot self-interest may be different to theirs? And that theirs (if true) show very little regard for yours. I'd suggest that rumour alone is responsible for the lukewarm reception the GOP is now getting, perhaps you could start there?
"...being held back" is wholly in the control of HR and Link management.
Brakerider, "Wasn't that long ago that those 320s were flown by somebody else either..."
That'd be SIX aircraft right? Not 30. And they didn't have interviews either....
Overwhelmingly, I'm astounded by the implication that the "jet" guys are trying to pull the ladder up after them (out of self-interest, though no one can say what the motivation might be - we're "grand-personed" remember?), but the possibility that the intentions of previously failed interviewees, candidates that couldn't compete against overseas kiwi passport-holders CV or overlooked, extremely senior Link guys are entirely pure. This project, by and large, is being presented as a package - not all of the component pieces can be implemented in isolation - it requires "jet" guys and girls to concede some of their conditions for you, it may be worth the price, it may not (most of us agree in principle with the concepts), but at least be polite.
Is the biggest problem (for Link drivers) guys and girls trying to skip the queue by leaving link to do a year or two at an Aussie carrier before jumping into Jet? Maybe if they put their foot down about “leaving the group” it could alleviate some issues?
Originally Posted by Brakerider
Is the biggest problem (for Link drivers) guys and girls trying to skip the queue by leaving link to do a year or two at an Aussie carrier before jumping into Jet? Maybe if they put their foot down about “leaving the group” it could alleviate some issues?
Morale was pretty low at Eagle a few years ago, before they announced the closure. Air NZ had stopped hiring internally and Eagle were selling A/C and cancelling routes. About this time, I gather a handful of Pilots left Eagle for greener pastures... 6 months later Eagle closure was announced. Many of them (not all) have since been picked up by Air NZ. This obviously sent a big message to the Link group and others followed suit, but I'm not sure how many of them have found their way back. I suspect those Eagle Pilots just had incredible timing.
All Air NZ need to do to solve this, be it now or in the future, is to interview suitably qualified Link Pilots and, on successful completion of the interview, Tag & Release them back to the Links.
Originally Posted by mattyj
’Tag and Release’ was the concept that is not finding favour in the latest version, that and group seniority??
Tag and Release means a Link Pilot who cannot be released from their current position is given a Reserved seniority number on the Air NZ list after a successful interview.
Group Seniority combines the Air NZ and Regional lists into one, giving everyone bidding rights for positions within the entire group. All new hires would start at the bottom of the list. i.e. an external hire from Cathay (for example) might start on the A320, but has a seniority number at the very bottom of the list including all Link Pilots.
I haven't yet heard any opposition to Tag & Release, only the GOP list.The company will add Pilots to the Air NZ list at a ratio of 70:30 Internal vs External. This means, if we hire another 100 external Pilots (30%), they need to add 230 (70%) "Tag & Release Pilots" to the list. This has the potential to snowball of course, depending how many more externals we need to hire, but it's still preferable to a GOP list as it can be done without any modifications to existing CEA's.
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
Group Seniority combines the Air NZ and Regional lists into one, giving everyone bidding rights for positions within the entire group. All new hires would start at the bottom of the list. i.e. an external hire from Cathay (for example) might start on the A320, but has a seniority number at the very bottom of the list including all Link Pilots.
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Judging by the comments amongst the “jet” pilots, this will be a huge flop if it gets put up for ratification. NZALPA has put in a huge amount of effort and man hours into these issues but have failed to convince the general pilot body of its benefits.
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
In 2013/2014, Link Pilots were going to the Jet Fleet in droves. Link Captains were getting interviews after 6 months in the LHS, some were even still bonded. The Links were losing Captains faster than they could train them, all to Air NZ Jet. Air NZ even sent some Jet Pilots to fill in C&T roles, mostly at Eagle I believe. To make matters worse, even FO's from Cook/Nelson were hired into the Jets compounding the shortage of Link Captains. And it's not the first time this has happened either. In the mid 2000's, prior to the GFC, a handful of regional Pilots found themselves at Air NZ in as little as 18 months.
The current Crop of Link Pilots, especially those mid 20's ATR Captains, need to remember this. They got to where they are because of all the movement before them. They got to skip a few years of GA (or skipped it entirely) because of the movement that happened before them. Link Pilots have also been passed over for Jet Jobs recently because Mt Cook has trebled in size. How many jobs did that create? How many current Link Pilots would still in be in GA if Mt Cook hadn't expanded? The very reason most of you are stuck in the regional's is also the reason you got a job in the first place.
The current Crop of Link Pilots, especially those mid 20's ATR Captains, need to remember this. They got to where they are because of all the movement before them. They got to skip a few years of GA (or skipped it entirely) because of the movement that happened before them. Link Pilots have also been passed over for Jet Jobs recently because Mt Cook has trebled in size. How many jobs did that create? How many current Link Pilots would still in be in GA if Mt Cook hadn't expanded? The very reason most of you are stuck in the regional's is also the reason you got a job in the first place.
Regional Pilots seem to forget they aren't the only Pilots qualified to fly for Air NZ. In actual fact (no offence intended), they're the least qualified because externals require Jet Time. Without all the external recruitment, Air NZ would of been parking A/C faster than Emirates. The A320 fleet has roughly doubled in crew in recent years. 3-4 years ago we had around 800 Jet Pilots, we're now closing in on 1100. That is the reality of expansion. It creates Jobs, but it also means not all of those positions can be filled internally.
FYI the latest external Air NZ job listing no longer had jet time as a prerequisite. ATO time will suffice. The pool of externals has been depleted obviously with the rapid growth. When you say externals are more qualified we aren’t talking about Sully, Maverick and Goose lining up to fly an Airbus with a Koru on it these days.
As for the GOP list, sure it might give you some certainty, but it will also add years onto your Regional Careers. It will also vastly reduce external applications. I realize Link Pilots don't care about externals, because they're "disloyal" or some BS like that, but without those externals, the Jet Fleet couldn't have expanded and likely, neither could the Links.
You might have your reasons to oppose the GOP list which are valid. But the ‘Jet boys’ looking out for our best interests isn’t one of them
A GOP list is not required to solve this problem.
The Company created this problem by refusing to use Tag & Release. Any idiot could see what was going to happen long before this mess... many Link Pilots even went so far as to tell the company this! This has been a problem for years and yet they only try to solve it now? At the same time they're trying to push through a Cadetship to replace Second Officers.... I wonder why?
The Company created this problem by refusing to use Tag & Release. Any idiot could see what was going to happen long before this mess... many Link Pilots even went so far as to tell the company this! This has been a problem for years and yet they only try to solve it now? At the same time they're trying to push through a Cadetship to replace Second Officers.... I wonder why?
Like I said in a previous post, a GOP list will only benefit a handful of current Link Pilots, giving them another shot at the Jets. The rest would have gotten in on their own merits eventually. The real benefit to Link Pilots is in Tag & Release, protecting a seniority number for those who legitimately get held back. A newly hired Link FO is no more deserving of a Jet Seniority number than any other Pilot, and from the feedback I'm hearing, many of my colleagues agree. It also doesn't help the cause that words spreading of a handful of Link Pilots preparing to go to court if the GOP list eventuates and argue they're entitled to Seniority numbers based on their 15-20 years of Link service.
I realize this is probably turning into a bit of a rant as I'm pushed for time in writing this. At the end of the day, from what I'm hearing, Air NZ Jet Pilots are in support of creating a better pathway for Link Pilots, specifically Tag & Release, but that support is not in favor of a GOP list.
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Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop
KiwiAvi8er, "If the current recruitment model was in the interests of link pilots...", I ask you - why should the recruitment model be just in the interests of link pilots? What special thing has a "Link" pilot done to usurp the rights of all other New Zealand pilots, and all other NZALPA pilots? Before you shout "loyalty", remember entire generations of Eagle pilots joined with just one airline in mind - Cathay. That you are employed by the largest employer in NZ doesn't guarantee loyalty, just that the odds on being hired by them was already far better than even. Unless you specifically turned down Air Nelson for just Mt Cook, or Eagle for Air Nelson (and some might in that case!), or to make the point more clearly, didn't take that GBA job because you only wanted the mighty Aztec gig at Mountain Air, then I'd suggest you just took the first job offered - like most of us did. If Link weren't hiring at the time you joined, are we to believe you wouldn't have taken an Origin, or Air Chats gig on offer and stuck with GA for many more years at $10/hr? Such is the nebulous nature of "loyalty". You may have been loyal, it doesn't mean that those employed elsewhere are disloyal.
The trend here is that Air New Zealand are centralizing subsidiary operations. There will be no Cook or Nelson shortly but some in the ‘old guard’ are adverse to change.
"The failed interview as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet..."
We have one, it's called an interview. Isn't what you're advocating here just an interview in seniority order? Is this what is being achieved right now by way of the 70:30 process? It's a "misnomer" to suggest that the only way to achieve this is through a GOP list.
We have one, it's called an interview. Isn't what you're advocating here just an interview in seniority order? Is this what is being achieved right now by way of the 70:30 process? It's a "misnomer" to suggest that the only way to achieve this is through a GOP list.
"One or two of the pilots I've seen in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes...." (My bolding)
We all probably have an account similar to this, the first thing this highlights about all of us is how good we think we are at spotting things that the experts don't (Dunning-Kruger perhaps?), the second is that the proof is in the pudding. Out of 1050 "jet" pilots (FYI, nobody at AirNZ "jet" calls themselves this), there are very few bad eggs - perhaps, by and large the process works? All of this ignores the fact that the big issue everyone seems to have is with the selection of interviewees - clearly an HR function (with a little bit of "help" from the affected link management).
We all probably have an account similar to this, the first thing this highlights about all of us is how good we think we are at spotting things that the experts don't (Dunning-Kruger perhaps?), the second is that the proof is in the pudding. Out of 1050 "jet" pilots (FYI, nobody at AirNZ "jet" calls themselves this), there are very few bad eggs - perhaps, by and large the process works? All of this ignores the fact that the big issue everyone seems to have is with the selection of interviewees - clearly an HR function (with a little bit of "help" from the affected link management).
Overwhelmingly, I'm astounded by the implication that the "jet" guys are trying to pull the ladder up after them (out of self-interest, though no one can say what the motivation might be - we're "grand-personed" remember?), but the possibility that the intentions of previously failed interviewees, candidates that couldn't compete against overseas kiwi passport-holders CV or overlooked, extremely senior Link guys are entirely pure. This project, by and large, is being presented as a package - not all of the component pieces can be implemented in isolation - it requires "jet" guys and girls to concede some of their conditions for you, it may be worth the price, it may not (most of us agree in principle with the concepts), but at least be polite.
