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Another Jab engine failure...

Much excitement on the Wagga CTAF this afternoon - Qantas ramp ops on the CTAF calling the inbound 2 x Rex, 1 x qlink that the council had had a phone call of an aircraft "possibly a jabiru" in a paddock.

Well done to all 3 and the tecnam who launched to go looking - good coordination and thoughtfulness from the last 2 arrivals to slow down and keep out the way whilst searching was organised.

Last we heard was that the Jab was safely down and the pilot walking to a road for help.

Another failure!

UTR

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good coordination and thoughtfulness from the last 2 arrivals to slow down and keep out the way whilst searching was organised.

Cooperative Regional Airline pilots...Leadsled will be surprised... :}

If a Jab has an engine failure and lands in a paddock is the paddock worth more or less than it was before the Jab landed in it?

Q: What do you call a paddock with a Jabiru in it??

A; A rubbish tip.

All the Jab owner has to do, is walk to the next paddock to find another Jab engine. As one infamous PPRUNE contributor noted, every paddock contains at least one Jab engine. :)

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Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 9559676)

Q: What do you call a paddock with a Jabiru in it??

A; A rubbish tip.

What do you call a Zenith half kit built aircraft in GK's hangar with a Rotax 912is with no manifold pressure information in the flight manual and a prop that has to be reco'ed before it can be used ?

A nadir?......just sayin:}

I would like to place on record that this incident can, in no respect, be blamed on the Jabiru engine. The engine continued to run smoothly until on the ground.
The aircraft had undergone work on items including fuel pump, carby and associated plumbing. The flight was a post maintenance check, and followed successful ground running.
On climb out, the engine rapidly, and without herald, powered down to approx. zero thrust. It continued to run smoothly. Accepting the inevitable, I landed in one of the areas off 05 that had always looked useable. Happily, it was.
For my sin, I got to walk through 500 metres of brown snake infested, long grass.
Jabiru seven eight is now back on the aerodrome. Jabiru 160s have a "road legal" tailplane span. Simply pop the wings off and roll onto a car trailer.
All that remains, is to find our error. Feel free to hate us for that.
Jabiru bashing is so, so out of fashion these days. This incident is not a suitable vehicle, for those, still so inclined.
Cheers to all. Fred

With that user name Fred, you must know something about engines, even if it is big round ones!! :ok:

Thanks Fred, it's always good to hear the other side of the story :-)

First of all I apologise unreservedly to jabiru owners for my previous post, I was presented with an opportunity to be flippant and rude and I took it.

Secondly I apologise to Fred. Loss of power is no laughing matter and congratulations for handling it so well. I would be interested to know the cause when you find it in the hope that I and others can prevent the same thing happening to us.

"I would like to place on record that this incident can, in no respect, be blamed on the Jabiru engine".

Bold statement unless cause is known. As a rule I never count anything out during an investigation.

I don't apologise, I made a joke and reserve the right to continue to joke.

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Originally Posted by The name is Porter (Post 9560935)

I don't apologise, I made a joke and reserve the right to continue to joke.

If an RV10 lands in a paddock.... what's the next bit, something about glass houses?

How can the engine be running perfectly and be completely faultless, if it "powered down to approximately zero thrust"?

Munz I would say if the throttle cable became "disconnected" the engine would be completely faultless. Therefore should not be recorded as a engine "mishap".

But I am wondering is why fuel pump (assume EDP) carby and plumbing had work done on them! or was it extra to routine maintenance? these 3 items certainly are "engine" so if one was responsible it is in effect a Jabiru engine failure regardless if it is maintenance induced. (Maintenance induced could be lack of data or other)

Not here to pro or con said motor, just facts.

If hypothetically someone pulls apart a mechanical fuel pump and puts it back together incorrectly, it's hardly the engine manufacturers fault...

FYI - If the throttle was "disconnected" the spring would take it to full power.

"FYI - If the throttle was "disconnected" the spring would take it to full power."

Is this fact for installation? I know many not a fact, Cessna 206 - I certainly know if bolt detaches - no such spring exists.

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If an RV10 lands in a paddock.... what's the next bit, something about glass houses?

Would I whinge if someone made a joke about the 10 landing in a paddock? Doubt it. ;)

Joke away...............

On CSU aircraft yes a spring - if detach goes to full fine.

Not many have a full power on throttle spring, if any!

I wouldn't joke about a VFR experimental aircraft flying in cloud with an ipad for a 6 pack :cool:

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Originally Posted by Band a Lot (Post 9561194)

Depends on what becomes disconnected. If the throttle cable disconnect from a Jabiru Bing carby, it would go full throttle. If the rotating part fell off the side of the carby, then all bets are off. I am not familiar with a 210 configuration myself. Rotaxes often have a spring which would be interesting to see in such an event because of the twin carbies as there is a spring on each one.

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Originally Posted by The name is Porter (Post 9561205)

I wouldn't joke about a VFR experimental aircraft flying in cloud with an ipad for a 6 pack :cool:

If you are referring to the iLevil iPad hardware and associated application, then attempting an IFR flight on such a device would be suicidal at best.

The unit that I use and have posted pictures of on here before, is terribly unreliable and inaccurate and I wouldn't use it for anything other than perhaps the G-meter. Not a good investment, but it wasn't a big one so it doesn't really hurt much anyway.

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How can the engine be running perfectly and be completely faultless, if it "powered down to approximately zero thrust"?

One possibility immediately comes to mind. A partially blocked fuel vent line when Mr Wasp has not quite finished the job. There are plenty of others.

I wish some people commenting wouldn't be so gleefully trying to trash the reputation of one of the few successful all Australian aircraft companies before they even know what caused this forced landing.

It is a credit to Jabiru that no one has ever been killed in one of their aircraft in a controlled forced landing. It should also be noted that most of the previous engine problems were due to owner / operators ignoring proper maintenance procedures.

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It should also be noted that most of the previous engine problems were due to owner / operators ignoring proper maintenance procedures.

So the factory would have you believe. The enormous number of through bolt failures we are now told, were apparently caused by harmonics. How does this relate to owners?

The comparison with Cessna 172s is interesting.

Click here for Comparison of Aircraft Manufacturers vs Number of Fatalities.

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How does this relate to owners?

Short answer is quotes from some owners.
1 I just use the torque specifications as a rough guide.
2 I just tighten the through bolt nut till it goes loose and then back off 1/2 a turn.
3 Wot's a torque wrench?http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

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Originally Posted by rutan around (Post 9561919)

The comparison with Cessna 172s is interesting.

Click here for Comparison of Aircraft Manufacturers vs Number of Fatalities.

interesting perhaps, but statistically meaningless i thought.

number of aircraft currently registered? total number ever registered would be more relevant (how many 172's have come and gone over the years?), or prangs/1000hrs would be better yet.

what would those numbers look like?

I agree flying hours at a minimum need to be included for such stats (total pax carried would also change numbers a lot).

What's wrong with Cessna 172 pilots? - Air Facts Journal

Squawk, the Cessna 100 & 200 series have the throttle cable with friction lock, the pilots can check themselves. Fully back off the friction nut, push throttle in and pull it out. A small cone shaped thing should be on shaft (this clamps on to the shaft to obviously create friction) the cable should now be very free to move and it will not progress to full power - it will stay where it is left (or will vibrate to when running/flying). FYI.

Rutan, yes I too thought that possible (air vent) but would have hope to see on ground run and more a gradual power loss. Also a fully blocked vent (part fuel in tank) and ground run was part of the timing of power loss. I don't know that much about Jabiru other than they use different ignition to normal mags - certain partial failures of ignition system is an other possible cause. Again if muffler is baffled type and collapses is another reason for smooth rapid power loss.

"It is a credit to Jabiru that no one has ever been killed in one of their aircraft in a controlled forced landing."

What a load of utter rubbish. Spend 3 minutes on Google before making yourself look stupid.

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Originally Posted by mcoates (Post 9561980)

Maybe true for Australia, but certainly not for outside of it.

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Perhaps Mcoates can provide a list of Jabiru accidents where someone was killed due to engine failure in Australia. I don't mean engine failure due to granite ingestion as a result of flying in cloud or ones where the aircraft ran out of fuel. Just ones where a Jabiru engine power loss caused the forced landing.

Spend 3 minutes on Google before making yourself look stupid. AGAIN

Why does it have to be a fatality in Australia to make it valid?

There was a recent one in South Africa where the prop was clearly not spinning.

Mcoates I just spent 1/2 an hour searching the web for fatal Jabiru accidents where engine failure was established as the cause. I found plenty of fatal accidents but not one where an engine fault was the cause. Perhaps, as I'm sure you don't think yourself stupid, you will be so kind as to direct me to a few of those specific sites that after proper investigation, attribute fatal Jabiru accidents to engine failure.

The extract below is worth reading for those too time poor to read the whole article. The whole article can be found at the address shown after the extract.

Extract

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Michael Monck, President of the RAA, has already sent a separate document to CASA which Mr Stiff describes as “very forthright.” (See previous article, Get on with it!)
The most serious aspect of the entire CASA action was the distortion CASA applied to the raw information from RA-Aus, says Mr Stiff: “We vetted the whole RA-Aus list when we finally got hold of it. CASA actually asked RA-Aus for their numbers after they had drafted the instrument – they didn’t have anything until I asked RA-Aus and they sent them their unedited list of incidents which included everything and listed 40 engine failures, so that’s where CASA’s magic 40 figure came from.
“Jabiru had addressed most of the identified problems over three years ago. I believe CASA has been negligent because they never consulted with us before they introduced the consultation draft, and they pulled the rug out from under us while we were on the plane on the way down. They couldn’t wait another day to talk about the issue, which really tells you what the intent was; the intent was obviously to damage us to the point where we couldn’t survive.
“When we finally worked that out with RA-Aus we spent a whole weekend going through the 40 events, comparing it with our list of failures, and working out which were just maintenance items like leaking fuel pumps, or simply running out of fuel, which were all on the CASA list. When we’d tidied it up we actually added some to the CASA list and when that was sorted out there were 12 actual in-flight engine failures which led to genuine forced landings. But that was in 93,000 flights, and 43,000 flying hours. And it was mainly flying schools because Jabirus are such popular training aircraft. We already had corrective measures in place for almost all of those 12, and had implemented them since 2011.”
In earlier discussions, Jabiru had offered CASA information from a detailed survey of light sport aircraft safety in the United States, conducted by Aviation Consumer magazine, which placed Jabiru’s safety record in the top three of over a dozen types along with Cessna 152 and Cessna Skycatcher in three categories:
• Overall accident rate per 100,000 hours of flight (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152);
• Fatal accident rate (Jabiru’s score was zero in USA); and
• Accidents per hundred aeroplanes registered (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152 and Skycatcher.
“Of a claimed 40 Jabiru ‘engine failures’, the actual number of genuine failures is only 12 out of over 1500 aircraft. And there has not been a single fatality, and very few injuries.”
“Jabiru has settled CASAs concerns. We are looking forward to Mr. Higgins from CASA coming to Bundaberg as he has said, to see these outcomes. For example, Jabiru has not had a recorded through-bolt failure in any engine produced since 2011.
“The evidence available to Jabiru shows there have been no deaths in Jabiru aircraft arising from engine stoppage. That is the case internationally. Between January 2013 and November 2014 there have been a number of deaths in light sport aircraft in Australia in other aircraft than Jabiru. CASA ought to be addressing that matter.
“CASA should also be looking elsewhere for more serious air safety issues in light sport aviation. If 19 deaths did occur and none was in Jabiru aircraft, then CASA ought to be attending to those issues, and not attacking this company without notice.
“Turning to the substance of the response demanded by the CASA, the issues of Jabiru engine operation to which it relates have effectively been resolved. There was no need for the world-wide denigration of Jabiru.

Full Article 'Indecent Haste'

Indecent haste | Pro Aviation

Where do those reports say there was a defect in the engine, as opposed to - say - the owner not having bolted the propeller on properly or having run out of fuel?

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These took me 30 seconds to find...

Yair Squawk and it shows what rushing a job does........

First one does not identify the aircraft type (though it looks like a Jab) and there is absolutely no information on the cause of the accident. Did it stall on short final with engine at idle? If you hang Jabiru with such miniscule information then I hope you are never on any jury trying me.http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

The second one is not even a Jabiru for gawd's sake. The discussion is about how survivable Jabs are even when they lose an engine. If you still want to trash Jab you need to know if the non standard prop extension bolts were torqued correctly and checked. Was the torque wrench calibrated recently (ever)? People damming Jabiru on such flimsy evidence would scream blue murder if it happened to them.