Incident that could have dwarfed lockhart river
 

Over a week ago, Thorn Bird put on a post with words to the effect, that an incident “could have dwarfed Lockhart River”. No information seemed to have come out about this, can anyone give some details, I believe it’s very important we know what actually went on. Has this been put on the ATSB website or has it been kept a secret?

It's easy enough to produce hints of incidents that could have been disasters - but failing to provide details does nothing for the posters credibility.
If the OP really has serious concerns about another pilot whose attitude to safety and adherence to regulations is highly suspect, then the obligation is on them to ensure that they make notes and report their concerns to authorities.
If the OP is referring to ATC failure events that could have ended in major disaster, then the ATSB lists numerous of these events, all of which have no doubt led to improvements and recognition of the failures that led to those events.
The fact the reported ATC failures did not lead to any major disaster indicates that the robust back-ups designed to address ATC failures worked as designed - and to offer up alarmist statements that one of these events could have "dwarfed Lockhart River", is on a par with some of the worst gutter journalism that regularly assaults us.

Has this got something to do with a coal loader at Newcastle? If so it could well have dwarfed LHR.

There was a Rex SAAB that tried to land there visually one night not long back if my prune memory is working. No doubt an ATSB report on that.

What else has happened?

are you talking about this one?

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...stle-stuff-up/

Emirates out of Melbourne and Virgin into Mildura?

Dick I actually asked Thorn Bird to back that statement up with a bit more detail and unsurprisingly he went very quiet. Like a lot of what TB posts its usually emotive and lacking any substance. He is probably in his version of aviation Nirvana and setting up an airline in NZ.:ok:

Anyone know why it took two years and four months to produce the final report on the REX incident into Newcastle? Just saying.

Ask the National Party executive.

I think we are looking for an incident which happened in the last 10 days or so.

Why don't you PM Thorn Bird Dick? He sees to be the only person who knows anything about it and has gone MIA.

I have done this. I note that many pilots are very concerned about making statements about safety issues .

Many phone me with info but are concerned about having any link to the information.

A bit like the old USSR.

So did you get an answer Dick and in your opinion is it something that could have dwarfed Lockhart River? I think the incident that could have dwarfed LR was the 737 effectively autolanding in the fog at MIA, but that is very much in the public domain.

There is a difference between making statements about safety issues and not reporting an incident that has the potential to "dwarf Lockhart River". The original statement made by TB was either hyperbole or BS.

Lockhart River was 15 deaths. So " dwarfing" means a lot more.

Suggest look at The Australian tomorrow morning.

In the old USSR Dick you would have been sent to the gulag for being a capitalist pig and the Australian would not exist. All this intrigue is puerile. I thought that you weren't afraid to state things as they are but I can see you just want to play the same stupid games you accuse others of playing.:=

Sunny. Possibly the newspaper report could encourage those in CASA or AsA to address an important safety issue .

As you would know both have resisted using our existing radar to provide class E separation and MSA services when in IMC at non tower airports.

Many have said we will need an accident killing a large number of people before such changes are made.

It would be great for Australia if we could make the changes before too many more deaths like the ones at Benalla and Mount Hotham.

The tiny bit of relevance The Australian had disappeared on Monday night ...

Hi Dick

A minor point, but enroute controllers cannot use a MSA unless an aircraft is on a published ATS route.

In CTA, ATC are responsible for terrain clearance.That means that if you are in IMC, and not on a published route, you will Not be getting a descent clearance below the grid LSALT.

Yes. No doubt what happens in Australia. Why not copy the safer North American system where IFR are in controlled airspace.

It's where most safe aircraft come from!

When we can get VHF and surveillance in that E you might get some support. In means inside all of the E for all IFR aircraft.

Hervey Bay, right in the middle of the ministers electorate has not got it. My last RNAV, into YNRM ….I have to cancel IFR between the FAF and MAP because thats where the VHF runs out. Hardly in the GAFA in both of those places. Cant get a departure IFR once on the ground.

For at least the 50th time class E terminal airspace to 700 agl does not require VHF or Radar coverage in North America.

Every instrument approach is in a minimum of class E and it would not be possible considering the huge size of the USA and the many valleys and mountains to have coverage down to 700 agl at every one of these airports.

But after 24 years of repeating this myth I suppose it becomes as factual as Bigfoot.

Resist resist resist change in every way you can. Wait for the Royal Commission after lots more uneccessary deaths like Benalla

Front page of The Australian today. A King Air blundering around in IMC at Mt Hotham with a faulty GPS comes close to another King Air.

Full radar coverage but no radar service provided. 18 could be dead.

The aircraft with the faulty GPS then appears out of cloud at 100' above the trees well away from the normal approach path.

Full radar coverage on your iPhone but no way class E could be provided!

I believe five aircraft were approaching Mt Hotham at that time.

Can someone advise how many frequencies are also coupled to 120.75 at about 9am on a weekday morning.

Are there any "control" frequencies or are they all advisory?

If it was "blundering around" that suggests the flight crew were not up to the job. When did it become apparent that the GPS was faulty and did the unit have a history of faults.

Is that number based on the carrying capacity of 2 King Airs or on how many people were actually in the aircraft at the time?

I doubt the aircraft was doing an RNP so why was it anywhere near the ground if it was conducting an instrument approach at YHOT?

Was this incident reported to the ATSB by the flight crew as they are legally required to? If not why not?

I don't disagree with the premise that if the radar is available then it should be used to its full extent; but the way this incident has been described has been akin to the more sensationalist reporting about aviation we see in the media.

The article is behind a paywall apart from the graphic, which states that the pilot reported GPS issues well before arriving at YHOT. Since the pilot knew they had a faulty GPS, why on earth did they use it to carry out an approach and not divert somewhere with a ground-aid-based approach?!

If that is true, then an excellent question.

Other media have picked up the story, and it reads as a typical media beat-up.

Close call for 18 passengers on plane bound for Mt Hotham

The prelim ATSB description differs somewhat from the media description

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...-2015-108.aspx

After reading the Aus story it is indeed a bad show ( shows Flightaware tracking Sept 03 )
The Essendon KA all over the place
I'd be very upset too if I was the other KA driver from Bankstown

Sensationalist articles like that are poison for GA.

After reading that, who from the public would want to fly in anything other than that flown by the big end of town?

Huh! Please explain?

Dr :8

If the ATSB quotes such rubbish surely you should accept it as factual!

The only thing missing from the media reports is "pilots fighting with the controls, while passengers screamed in terror". No, there weren't 18 people on the one aircraft as the media tries to make it appear.
One pilot whose navigation competency is highly suspect makes some serious errors and gets lost - so that translates to "a major incident that could have dwarfed Lockhart". The entire beat-up hinges on "could have".
It is no more newsworthy an event than the dozen other incidents over the last few years, where someone screwed up, and a potential mid-air was possible.
I trust this King Air bloke gets his competency reviewed, it sounds like he barely scraped over the line when his licence was first issued.

Where do you think the media got this figure from? How about this posted earlier by Dick:

As for the GPS data being out of tolerance, that bit of info was provided by the operator so thats what the ATSB will investigate. I can sense a certain amount of hysteria permeating the postings.

If a fatal accident at YHOT didn't put people off flying there why would this change their minds?

There is NOT 'full radar coverage' there. Simple, there isn't so no need to say there is to emphasise a point.

I haven't read the newspaper article but on 3AW this morning Ross & John were having quite a bit of 'fun' with this. They stated that the passengers on the aircraft out of Essendon refused to take the same aircraft back if the same pilot was flying. They stated that another pilot had to be flown up to Mount Hotham to bring them and the aircraft back. Is this what the newspaper article stated as well?

They were making the pilot out to be an incompetent idiot.

No hysteria here Lookleft!

As one who has flown lots of GPS approaches, I was simply wondering how GPS data on a data card gets to be "out of tolerance"!

Dr :8

The 35 minute flight took about 1.3 hours, the Flightaware record is no longer available but there is still a photo of the track image on the front page of the Aus

VH-OWN ? 03-Sep-2015 ? YMEN / MEB - YHOT / MHU ? FlightAware

Can't find the one ex YSBK

Sorry Forky if you thought I was directing that comment at you, it was the bloke under yours!

Dick,
How do I operate IFR in C,E,G without VHF coms to ATC. I ant do it in VMC without cancelling IFR and proceeding VFR, like when I went to Cunnamulla recently, or to Blackall (@A060 due winds).

Then once in IMC at say 700AGL, how do I blast through all that E without a clearance, say 7000' at YBCK or YCMU? Is there some dispensation I am not aware of that allows flight in controlled airspace without a clearance?

I may be wrong, but nobody has ever pulled me up on this topic.

And then in IMC how do you do separation IFR from IFR without SSR/ADSB?

Happy to have E with the gear to back it up.