South Coast aircraft down 6/7/14
 

Reports of a light aircraft crashing into the ocean 1km off the headland at Tomkin, near Batemans Bay.
We are not having a good run lately.
I hope it's just unsubstantiated rumor, but for God sake people, PLEASE be careful this is happening too much.

.
Don't normally post but sorry to say it is not a rumour, having just read the article in the SMH
30 minutes before you posted (smh.com.au).

A very sad week for GA in NSW. May he RIP and condolences to all affected. I hope they find the missing person safe and well, but sadly I fear this will not be so.

SMH Article

GW was a great man, helped me during my early years and was someone whos high standards I always aspired to. Will miss him.

A handwritten note slipped to me by Mr White a few months ago:

The man loved his flying and was bloody good at teaching it too...I remember his smile when he gently applied the right rudder every time I forgot to in a go-around. Never said a word about it - let his actions do the talking.

Respected and liked by all.

RIP.

What a shocker of a month for Australian aviation. From what I've heard the instructor sounds like a great guy who really loved instructing.

Was this aircraft a Morgan Sierra?

Bienniel flight review kills two - CAsA denies involvement
 

well done CAsA :mad:

W8,

RAAus people want freedom from CASA oversight of:
- Maintenance
- construction
- medical standards
- licencing and training oversight

CASA has tried to influence and control these factors while granting RAAus the authority to oversee those functions.

I am not sre how on earth you think CASA is in any way responsible for the tragedy that unfolded. :confused:

HLB - I think he was more tong-in-cheek commenting on the bi-annual part. If that's not correct, then I dunno and that's the problem with the written word on a forum.


HLB - as you are likely close to this in terms of what you do, what are your thoughts on conducting BFR's in kit built aircraft?

If anyone wishes to share their memories of Graham, or to pass on any messages to his family, I have started a separate thread here:

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...ham-white.html

Jex

Morgan Sierra
 

XXX, what is the inference in your question?

VH-XXX

I don't get confronted with the problem very much. If I know the builder and I have seen their work during construction I am usually very comfortable (or very polite in declining the offer).

I don't know anything about this event or the aircraft involved (or even what type).

It was a Morgan Sierra if the news reports are correct.

Ferris Wheel crash at Old Bar [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Same aircraft type of Tarree Ferris Wheel fame and yes, the aircraft design didn't cause it to hit the Ferris wheel, however what was found during the ATSB report told quite a story.

Old Bar Ferris Wheel - Morgan Sierra
 

XXX, absolutely no link can be drawn between the Old Bar Ferris Wheel accident involving a Morgan Sierra and the tragic accident involving the same type of aircraft, if indeed it was. In fact, despite the findings of the enquiry into the Old Bar accident the Sierra remained remarkably intact.

Hence my comment. I never suggested that, I was saying that it was the same aircraft type and noted that the aircraft design did not cause it to hit the ferris wheel.

I would be focusing on the findings of the ATSB report including photos, versus what the aircraft looked like after it crashed. The wreckage underwent expert analysis by trained investigators and engineers.

ATSB Report
 

XXX, by focusing on the ATSB report and the photographs therein, one could call into question the build quality of the Old Bar accident aircraft. It seems to me that you are inferring that the accident yesterday may involve an aircraft with similar deficiencies without any shred of evidence that such is the case.

It would be prudent to wait until further information is available, at least until the aircraft type is confirmed by a relevant authority rather than the SMH or other news source.

Old Fella, I'm only going to say this one more time. I'm not inferring anything regarding the aircraft type, so please do not continue to suggest this. Please read my post carefully.

Manufacturer
 

XXX, I think I know the meaning of "manufacturer". Any aircraft built from a kit has, by definition, been "constructed" from a kit which has been "manufactured".

The Sierra may be constructed by the manufacturer, Morgan's, or from a kit by another constructor. Having been involved in aircraft maintenance and/or operation since the late 1950's I think I have a grasp of aviation terminology.

As for suggesting you have a grudge against the Morgan Sierra, nothing of the sort entered my mind.

Missing post
 

XXX, just enquiring re your post in which you said "in GA speak the kit builder means the manufacturer". I seems to have gone missing....

Daily telegraph reporting possible bird strike as the cause.

They got that from the President who suggested that it could have happened because Moruya is a coastal area with lots of birds. As much as I know it can, a bird shouldn't take out an aircraft.

" a bird shouldn't take out an aircraft"

Perhaps you could discuss that belief with Capt Chelsey Sullenberger and F/O Jeff Skiles.

CC

i wouldn't be surprised if they hit a pelican! and hitting one in a morgan, in the canopy could be deadly. as it would in most lighties.

coming head to head with a pelican at 120 kts in a 172 is a scary situation, and those morgans, with the jabiru 3300 can easily cruise at 120kts.

I guess the "something fell off the plane" comments from the public could indeed be a bird of the result there-of.

If I recall correctly the Zodiac that went in at the Gold Coast a few years back was thought to have had a bird strike.

What a sad day. Sad for several reasons. Sad the aviation has lost one of the last true gentleman pilots, that would give the shirt of his back to help a budding pilot out. And sad we have to listen to the usual "arm chair air crash investigators, regurgitate news reports and off hand tales of birds and broken ferris wheels.
Hows a bout a thought spared for the families, and his close friends, of which there are hundreds.

I've said it before and will no doubt have to say it again a couple of times before I check out; "Bloody aeroplanes, love them dearly, but they cause a fair share of my heartache too". I too lost my original PPL instructor and latterly good friend, arriving on the beach just after he'd gone in on backline. Have to say I don't recall instructing the rest of the world on how they had to think and behave in the immediate aftermath, but perhaps time has added a layer of courtesy to my memory.

Both this one and the recent Inverell 210 really hit home for me, involving people who on the face of it were acting quite reasonably and going about their recreation and aviation business. It's easier to exclude those who poke their noses into grim weather or IMC - as in "yes but I'd never do that".

Often said that there aren't any new ways to write yourself off in an aircraft, so that really leaves; the builder, the designer, the pilot or some outside agency - like a bird. I hope they find the cause, although sadly the longer the search takes, the less likely they are to find all the bits, including that reputed to have fallen off beforehand. Anyone know the source of that report ie. kid on the beach or someone who had may have had an understanding of what they were seeing?

Dood, as sad as this event is, it is human nature to speculate & solve the accident. If friends & family don't want to read it, don't. But it's human nature to take a peak also isn't it. As far as journalists coming to this site and reprinting posts, sue them for libel or defamation.

Oh please - spare me!

Whenever there is a prang we speculate on this forum as to what might have happened. IMO its in a pilot's nature to do so.

Whenever we do, someone posts a line like that above - which we ignore!

So why bother? If you don't like it - don't log in!

Speculating is part of the learning process. By the time the ATSB has worked it out it's usually 2.5 years later and the accident is long gone from our memories. For RAA aircraft, there usually is not the ATSB involved so we may never ever hear about this again.

By suggesting for example it was a bird strike, someone might read this and think twice about skimming along a beach at 50ft where birds usually reside and it might save another life or two. If you think to yourself that a bird could bring down your aircraft you may be extra cautious on your next flight. (Note: 50ft comment is not related this thread)

If a 210 goes in after taking off at last light and everyone starts suggesting somotographical illusion, then great, there's something I have just learnt about that I will keep in mind for my next flight. If the accident didn't happen, we wouldn't have been discussing it.

The best way to learn about aviation is to talk about it, consult with your resident airport peanut gallery, instructors, students and CPL's. The clinical approach of heading in to your local sausage factory for your 1 hour lesson and heading home straight afterwards won't get you the "life" experience that you need to be a safer and older pilot.

I'm with the previous three posters on this point! If 1 pilot learns something (and lives a bit longer) from reading 'speculation' on here, then that's gotta be a good thing AND the accident was not for nothing!

Food for thought..??

No matter how many 'new' accidents / incidents we read about on these austere pages, it seems that there are no 'new' reasons.....

(OK - Some 'avoidable' and some maybe not). e.g. Structural Failure, EFATO into 'bad terrain' etc...

For many VFR flights into IMC, and the 'disorientation' that usually follows, it has often been pointed out that the funeral will usually be held on a fine sunny day!!
Yet, there are those who would still 'POR'...Press On Regardless...full of their own new found abilities...not!

And I too do miss the ole' Aviation Safety Digest where the story was told in a 'pilot to pilot' factual manner, and so, many of us actually learned without it being the 'hard way'..... well most of the time.....

On how many occasions have some of us stood around the 'Bar' discussing someone's 'most recent event', beer in hand, speculating, formulating theories, and most of all sharing ideas and learning.

"What might I have done"? in the same circumstances..??

Of course, we are ALL 'wise in hindsight' but the fact remains, we have thought about it, maybe formed an opinion, and learned....

In the absence of our favourite bar, we now have this forum, which really is the same thing - only not as 'congenial' and some 'original' ideas may be a bit further apart perhaps....

But the idea is the same. Pilots will talk and speculate, and criticise other pilots and their actions ad finitum.
'Tis a form of sharing and learning...well mostly!

E.G. Only last night I was watching 'Air Crashes' on the box, and saw a couple of 737's crash because of an autopilot fault.
So, in hindsight, we all ask, why not turn off the autopilot, and handfly the aeroplane?
With a certain 'attitude' and a certain 'power setting' it will continue to fly, or to climb, or to descend to a safer level, or whatever?
Power/attitude/trim..??

I know, there are 'extenuating circumstances', but you get the basic idea.....

'Commercial' over....normal viewing resumes....

(Hat, coat,........) :ok:

Fairoaks flyer
 

What was the aircraft type please?

Type
 

FF. It has been said to be a Morgan Sierra.

Yes, speculate away, for all the good it will do. My point was that there was 4 posts offering some form of human condolence, and then the experts pipe up, in the usual fashion. Saying its just how you do it round here is no excuse.
There is still people missing from this accident. Its all fun and games until its your mate, or father, or Instructor.

My sincerest condolences to the families who are suffering.

Well said 'Griffo':ok:
'Motza' I think you miss the point. let the search continue let the official investigation continue but also let the discussions continue.

Humans always learn from others mistakes if indeed that's what we have here (yet to be determined) so nobody here is bagging the people involved & in a strange sort of way this is the way the flying community grieve. We cant bring these two back nor the thousands that have died before them doing what they love but we can discuss it & hopefully it will leave that slight doubt in the back of another aviators mind making him/her think more to perhaps save another potential disaster.
My above is of a generic nature, not linked to this actual event.

Wmk2

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...ham-white.html

MM the above may have escaped your notice, suggest you may be better off there. Lashing out here isn't helping your cause and it may be as well to stop and consider that you aren't the only person ever to have lost a loved one or close mate in an air crash. Play with these things long enough and sadly there is a fair chance of it happening to someone in your circle.

Ex FSO Griffith - well said, that man.


The only difference between PPRUNE and the bar is that PPRUNE is more public, and people feel they are anonymous.

FFS, Don't come to this thread, don't read it. Or live in China where sites like this don't exist.

To speculate or not?
 

Speculation is best confined to investing. One poster says we learn from speculating, another says those who do speculate offend family & friends of accident victims.

From personal experience I believe speculation by contributors to this forum, in regard to aircraft accidents, serves no useful purpose. Investigators will, in most cases, determine what caused an accident or incident. When their findings are published is the time for "learning".

Those reading these forums have to accept that much of what is contributed can come from ill-informed people, many whom have no knowledge of matters aviation in general and probably are not qualified to offer an opinion. We can all learn something each day but what we learn needs to be accurate and not mere speculation.

RIP those lost.

Couldn't agree more!

:D