"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
 

Hello.

Having trawled throughout the AIP, I am unable to find any guidance with regard to what to say when descending.

I have heard very many versions, all of which make sense, but I just wanted to know what the definitive word or phrase may be. On any given day, I'll hear most of these:


"Left 6,000 for 4,000"

"On descent 4,000"

"Descending 4,000"

"Out of 6 for 4,000"

Help!!!!!!

"Leaving" or "Descending to"

Left is a direction of turn.

Left 350 is a turn to the north.

Leaving FL 350 or Descending to FL 250 uses the preferred tense.

Oh this old chestnut....I recall having an hour long discussion with a checkie in a sim debrief on this very topic. He was adamant I was incorrect in saying "leaving". It is in the aip as an example phrase including the word "leaving". Even showing said checkie the page he still did not accept it and even proceeded to email me a month later asking if I had found any further evidence of correct terminology. Suffice to say I had better things to do with my time. Its leaving!!!

You blokes are guns :D keep up the good work, nothing worse than making crap up. What you say on the radio leaves an impression of your professionalism :ok:

Bandit,

What, out of interest, was the "correct" phraseology according to the check pilot?

"On climb" and "on descent" drives me nuts and it really shouldn't as they are only words, but the fact that the AIP has been messed with so badly that no one knows what they are supposed to do these days annoys me.

As I was once told "specificity is the key to all good communication" and the way that the AIP has been hacked and destroyed makes it nearly impossible to find definitive answers on many things - perhaps this is the intended result! If it isn't easily found then no one can say you are wrong.....

"Pending clearance..."
"ABC, IFR taxi"

:}

It keeps getting hacked because people make sh!t up ;)

out of

Its not a direction. Says you have actually vacated the level.

'Elvis has left the building.' Or is he leaving? :E

Oh good grief guys...who gives a sh..t!!! what the words are as long as you "Communicate" !!!!. I once worked for a company that insisted on "Canned" briefings, one Captain had made a tape with silence gaps where things needed to be inserted...he'd play the tape and verbally insert the bits needed in the silence break..do we really need to get to that level of anallity!!

I always thought it was "FL245 descending FL165"

If you use the word "for" can add confusion for the number.

I dunno, my understanding anyway. Happy to be proven otherwise.

Yes and yes it seems wrong but it is not

"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
 

I just had a wrong answer on the Bristol QB for selecting the response "descending FL310". They have the correct answer as "leaving FL350 descending FL310" ie both flight levels need to be referenced.

Well the mob I work for advise under Radar control we don't need to report leaving.......I haven't said it for years in Australia and ATC have never said anything......:)

G'Day "JR" good to see you have been let out the 'cooler':ok:
You must have been as naughty as I was, banned:E
It's 'leaving' but common sense seems to have left aviation long ago with fancy words now like HR, CRM & all the feel good crap that goes with it & being politically correct:ugh:Listen to the yanks, they rapid fire off R /T chit chat so quick being 'perfect' is near impossible!

'fpvdude' brings up a good point. 'Leaving' & 'left' mean two diff things where 'leaving' is ref to the present now(as in it's happening at the present time ) & 'left' is past tense (he left the district years ago).
I say "out of", no ambiguity there:ok:
Being JEPPS perfect is overrated:-)

Wmk2

We operate as per ICAO and our book states----

Flight Level and Altitude Reports by Pilots The vertical separation standards applied by ATC stipulate one aircraft may be assigned the Flight Level or Altitude previously occupied by another, after the latter has reported “Leaving”, except when turbulent conditions exist,. The word “Leaving” means that a positive movement has been observed on the altimeter. This call shall not be made until climb or descent has commenced. “Leaving” is not a statement of intent, it is a statement of action. The call is not required when under Radar Control.

While native English speakers have few dramas with the radio, it would be handy to remember that many pilots who are not from an English background are assisted by standard phraseology. There have been accidents where both ATC and the pilot contributed to the problem with colloquial phrasing. As already pointed out "left 250" could either be taken as a level or heading change.:ok:

ps. "Leaving" is the correct phrase for a level change when not radar identified.:cool:

tbh it's not 100% clear..


a. CLIMB (or DESCEND)
followed as necessary by:
(i) TO (level)
(ii) TO AND MAINTAIN (level)
(iii) TO REACH (level) AT (or BY) (time or significant point)
(iv) TO (level) REPORT LEAVING (or REACHING or PASSING or APPROACHING) (level)
(v) AT (number) FEET PER MINUTE [MINIMUM (or MAXIMUM)]

Folks,
Leaving is the report, Left is a direction ---- something that the Australian AIP had wrong for many years.
The was never any "confusion" except in Australia's non-conformity.
Non-standard radio phraseology can be very dangerous, it was a major contributor the night the TAA B727 hit the Canadian Pacific DC-8 at Mascot.
Non-standard (by Australia) phraseology ( of which CAA/CASA and ASA had been aware of for years, also resulted in a horribly close near hit between an executive jet and an airline aircraft (from memory a DC-10) of the NSW coast.
See Annex10, Vol.11.
Tootle pip!!

How is this interpreted? Only report when asked to? Or in both cases?

It was always "Left Flight Level 250" until the ICAO masochists came along, then that (and other clear, concise calls) were removed.

In my view, "Left" is best and most commonsense. You are either at a level or you are not.

There are only two real examples in AIP (CPDLC notwithstanding):
- GEN 3.4 Page 31, which is an ATC call so not definitively a pilot call and
- ENR 1.1 12.1.4, which is such a non-sensical example that it has no credibility (in CTA, there is absolutely no need to say "Left" [or "Leaving"] and then saying "cleared to" in the same breath).

As for confusion between Heading Left and Level Left, ATC will never say "Leaving" in the context of a heading command so there would be no of confusion there. And all levels should have "Flight Level" at the start!

Of course not. That is probably why it was always "Left". But let's not allow practicality to get in the way of the MIGHTY ICAO! http://www.smilies.our-local.co.uk/i...es/worship.gif

Got a reference for that? ;)

When in Ozzie do as Aussies do: ENR 1.7 4.1.6. :ok:

Be interesting to know what MATS says. Jack knows but isn't saying! :E

G'day Wal :ok: parole is almost as bad as banned ;)

Cap'n, I cannot get involved in these discussions anymore as it raises my blood pressure :mad: there's a reason for standard phraseology. I think most Australian ATC's (second best in the world :ok:) plan for 'non standard' phraseologies ;)

Lead sled :ok: (see that? I'm now reformed)

$76!! I don't think so.

Jesus "JR" live a little there buddy, don't let tyranny rule it's bad enuf up there in China where the Mods don't live (then again!)!:EWhat have those Mods done to you mate?:-)
You can always come back as "JR Mk2", we'll still luvs ya:E

I can't believe there's so much fracas over this, I mean how the hell did we ever got on b4:ugh: I always say "out of xxx", never had an issue am sure ATC get a ruff idea what I am doing:-)


Wmk2

It's Leaving and Descending to/Climbing to - end of story...

Well that's settled then! :}

Seriously another how do I say something on the radio thread get your hand off it boys and girls and just be practical.
:ugh:

'blackt' you cannot have 'practical' here in Oz where Aviation is concerned, we also cannot have happiness breaking thru with 'practicable' on the radio either mixed in with it, it's not allowed & neither is it on PPrune, stick with the facts quote the Jepps & we will all live happily ever after!:E


Wmk2

Nervously stepping into the fray.... I confess I thought there was a use for both in a pilot report? Procedural controlled airspace (does it still exist with ADSB?) with step climbs and step descents. Pilot 'blocking' the following traffic should report 'Left' the level in order to allow the following guy to be cleared to the next level (or even that level?).

I do use both -
- leaving when given a "when ready, descend to xxxx" *
- left when asked to report on descent (doesn't happen often but it has) or being situation-ally aware of someone being on top of me.

Maybe it was a european thing i read doing JAA ATPLs? But leaving was good enough - as you were still there. Left was a required statement as it meant you had vacated and weren't going back?

Anyone who thinks a pilot reporting 'left' instead of 'leaving' is a safety issue needs their head read. At most you'll get a query from ATC if they misunderstand that you're turning when you're climbing/descending - but it's a report, not an instruction.


* Who can think of a more concise way to get around the verbal diarrhea that occurs going into Essendon from the north? "XXX, when ready, descent to niner thousand, QNH 1030, with a requirement to reach niner thousand by two zero Melbourne". Can't it just be an Essendon 1 arrival or something? Drives me nuts - and I only have to read it back once (or twice if recleared ) a flight.

** Heard it given to Qantas yesterday - first time for a ML arrival I've heard?

i.e.

When blasting off and letting ATC know you will be climbing to a particular level in controlled airspace but won't enter without a clearance, one might say 'pending clearance', or similar.

or

When having already left a flight level some minutes ago but unable to get on the radio for whatever reason, using 'left FL290', rather than 'leaving FL290'.

etc.

Nothing wrong with clear, concise plain language use in radio calls.
No need to get your knickers in a knot Jack Ranga :}

Or how's about "now on descent passing FL281..."

I still maintain it's not required under Radar control, it's the way we've done it for years all over the World.....no issues at all.

Typical Australia. :D

Glekichi, no knots here mate :ok: previous to my ban (sentence) I was the Wil Anderson of prune i.e. The more you yell & swear the funnier you are ;)

I do like your reference, it's cool & apt. Sometimes I catch myself talking a lot of sh!t on the radio. I think to myself, dood, you could have said that in 5 words of standard rather than 20 words of crap, kinda like requesting traffic & code when the worlds' second best controllers give that to you without thinking about it :ok:

UTR sadly us procedural tower types still need the report... can't use ADSB/TSAD for separation.

As alluded, it's not too difficult to work out if you say left 4000 that you aren't headed... well who knows. Leaving or left both work for me :ok:

PS I am pretty sure there is a reference in AIP that you don't have to advise vacating a level when you are identified. I will look it up tomorrow at work if someone doesn't beat me to it

AIP ENR 1.1-16 8.4.3 Note is the bit about not needing to advise vacated when identified

Depends on how you interpret it. The original AIP statement was "Left (9000)" indicating you were not at 9000 anymore since you had "left" it behind.
You couldn't get more positive or concise than that.

The along came good old ICAO and said the word to be used by everyone should be "Leaving (9000). That could be interpreted as "I intend to leave 9000 when it suits me" As the song said "I'm leaving on a jet plane" but I haven't actually left yet.
"Leaving" leaves doubt in other pilots minds as to has the bugger left 9000 yet? IMHO of course:ok:

Why does that matter as the other pilot can't go to 9000 until you're confirmed through the next level anyway. You might have "left" 9000, but still be at 8950...

Incredible! The answer is in the two words "left" and "leaving". ATC can use the first to provide separation but not the second.

I guess 'Have a nice day'....would not be kosher...??

:(

or...'Area QNH 1013...":eek:

Onya Bloggs, as usual. Our slavish adherence to ICAO has created more confusion than clarity.

For a controller to assign climb or decent, in an instance where there needs to be certainty, then 'leaving' means stuff all.

'Leaving,' 'leaving' - are you still there?

'Left' is certainty from a controller's perspective. The level has been vacated. No ifs, no buts.

And don't start me on read-backs. Once, we read back the SID, ALT/FL and anything preceded by the word 'amended.' How many prangs were caused by that? But we had to be ICAO compliant and now read-backs just take up airtime for no reason other than being 'compliant.'

What a classic! One word creating this hoo-ha :ouch:

I'd say G'day to ya Griffo :ok:

It is comforting to know that some have the big issues in aviation so perfect & error free, that they have all the time in the world to argue about this nit-picking, inconsequential, crap! :hmm:

Everyone has an opinion, they are all different & everyone thinks their opinion is the correct one. You have to ask yourself - "In the overall scheme of things, is it really that important?" Perhaps it is time to step back & take a look at the forest.