"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
Thread Starter
"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
Hello.
Having trawled throughout the AIP, I am unable to find any guidance with regard to what to say when descending.
I have heard very many versions, all of which make sense, but I just wanted to know what the definitive word or phrase may be. On any given day, I'll hear most of these:
"Left 6,000 for 4,000"
"On descent 4,000"
"Descending 4,000"
"Out of 6 for 4,000"
Help!!!!!!
Having trawled throughout the AIP, I am unable to find any guidance with regard to what to say when descending.
I have heard very many versions, all of which make sense, but I just wanted to know what the definitive word or phrase may be. On any given day, I'll hear most of these:
"Left 6,000 for 4,000"
"On descent 4,000"
"Descending 4,000"
"Out of 6 for 4,000"
Help!!!!!!
"Leaving" or "Descending to"
Left is a direction of turn.
Left 350 is a turn to the north.
Leaving FL 350 or Descending to FL 250 uses the preferred tense.
Left is a direction of turn.
Left 350 is a turn to the north.
Leaving FL 350 or Descending to FL 250 uses the preferred tense.
Oh this old chestnut....I recall having an hour long discussion with a checkie in a sim debrief on this very topic. He was adamant I was incorrect in saying "leaving". It is in the aip as an example phrase including the word "leaving". Even showing said checkie the page he still did not accept it and even proceeded to email me a month later asking if I had found any further evidence of correct terminology. Suffice to say I had better things to do with my time. Its leaving!!!
keep up the good work, nothing worse than making crap up. What you say on the radio leaves an impression of your professionalism
Bandit,
What, out of interest, was the "correct" phraseology according to the check pilot?
"On climb" and "on descent" drives me nuts and it really shouldn't as they are only words, but the fact that the AIP has been messed with so badly that no one knows what they are supposed to do these days annoys me.
As I was once told "specificity is the key to all good communication" and the way that the AIP has been hacked and destroyed makes it nearly impossible to find definitive answers on many things - perhaps this is the intended result! If it isn't easily found then no one can say you are wrong.....
What, out of interest, was the "correct" phraseology according to the check pilot?
"On climb" and "on descent" drives me nuts and it really shouldn't as they are only words, but the fact that the AIP has been messed with so badly that no one knows what they are supposed to do these days annoys me.
As I was once told "specificity is the key to all good communication" and the way that the AIP has been hacked and destroyed makes it nearly impossible to find definitive answers on many things - perhaps this is the intended result! If it isn't easily found then no one can say you are wrong.....
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Oh good grief guys...who gives a sh..t!!! what the words are as long as you "Communicate" !!!!. I once worked for a company that insisted on "Canned" briefings, one Captain had made a tape with silence gaps where things needed to be inserted...he'd play the tape and verbally insert the bits needed in the silence break..do we really need to get to that level of anallity!!
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I always thought it was "FL245 descending FL165"
If you use the word "for" can add confusion for the number.
I dunno, my understanding anyway. Happy to be proven otherwise.
If you use the word "for" can add confusion for the number.
I dunno, my understanding anyway. Happy to be proven otherwise.
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"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
I just had a wrong answer on the Bristol QB for selecting the response "descending FL310". They have the correct answer as "leaving FL350 descending FL310" ie both flight levels need to be referenced.
G'Day "JR" good to see you have been let out the 'cooler'
You must have been as naughty as I was, banned
It's 'leaving' but common sense seems to have left aviation long ago with fancy words now like HR, CRM & all the feel good crap that goes with it & being politically correct
Listen to the yanks, they rapid fire off R /T chit chat so quick being 'perfect' is near impossible!
'fpvdude' brings up a good point. 'Leaving' & 'left' mean two diff things where 'leaving' is ref to the present now(as in it's happening at the present time ) & 'left' is past tense (he left the district years ago).
I say "out of", no ambiguity there
Being JEPPS perfect is overrated:-)
Wmk2
You must have been as naughty as I was, banned
It's 'leaving' but common sense seems to have left aviation long ago with fancy words now like HR, CRM & all the feel good crap that goes with it & being politically correct
Listen to the yanks, they rapid fire off R /T chit chat so quick being 'perfect' is near impossible!'fpvdude' brings up a good point. 'Leaving' & 'left' mean two diff things where 'leaving' is ref to the present now(as in it's happening at the present time ) & 'left' is past tense (he left the district years ago).
I say "out of", no ambiguity there
Being JEPPS perfect is overrated:-)
Wmk2
We operate as per ICAO and our book states----
Flight Level and Altitude Reports by Pilots The vertical separation standards applied by ATC stipulate one aircraft may be assigned the Flight Level or Altitude previously occupied by another, after the latter has reported “Leaving”, except when turbulent conditions exist,. The word “Leaving” means that a positive movement has been observed on the altimeter. This call shall not be made until climb or descent has commenced. “Leaving” is not a statement of intent, it is a statement of action. The call is not required when under Radar Control.
Flight Level and Altitude Reports by Pilots The vertical separation standards applied by ATC stipulate one aircraft may be assigned the Flight Level or Altitude previously occupied by another, after the latter has reported “Leaving”, except when turbulent conditions exist,. The word “Leaving” means that a positive movement has been observed on the altimeter. This call shall not be made until climb or descent has commenced. “Leaving” is not a statement of intent, it is a statement of action. The call is not required when under Radar Control.
While native English speakers have few dramas with the radio, it would be handy to remember that many pilots who are not from an English background are assisted by standard phraseology. There have been accidents where both ATC and the pilot contributed to the problem with colloquial phrasing. As already pointed out "left 250" could either be taken as a level or heading change.
ps. "Leaving" is the correct phrase for a level change when not radar identified.
ps. "Leaving" is the correct phrase for a level change when not radar identified.
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tbh it's not 100% clear..
a. CLIMB (or DESCEND)
followed as necessary by:
(i) TO (level)
(ii) TO AND MAINTAIN (level)
(iii) TO REACH (level) AT (or BY) (time or significant point)
(iv) TO (level) REPORT LEAVING (or REACHING or PASSING or APPROACHING) (level)
(v) AT (number) FEET PER MINUTE [MINIMUM (or MAXIMUM)]
a. CLIMB (or DESCEND)
followed as necessary by:
(i) TO (level)
(ii) TO AND MAINTAIN (level)
(iii) TO REACH (level) AT (or BY) (time or significant point)
(iv) TO (level) REPORT LEAVING (or REACHING or PASSING or APPROACHING) (level)
(v) AT (number) FEET PER MINUTE [MINIMUM (or MAXIMUM)]
Folks,
Leaving is the report, Left is a direction ---- something that the Australian AIP had wrong for many years.
The was never any "confusion" except in Australia's non-conformity.
Non-standard radio phraseology can be very dangerous, it was a major contributor the night the TAA B727 hit the Canadian Pacific DC-8 at Mascot.
Non-standard (by Australia) phraseology ( of which CAA/CASA and ASA had been aware of for years, also resulted in a horribly close near hit between an executive jet and an airline aircraft (from memory a DC-10) of the NSW coast.
See Annex10, Vol.11.
Tootle pip!!
Leaving is the report, Left is a direction ---- something that the Australian AIP had wrong for many years.
The was never any "confusion" except in Australia's non-conformity.
Non-standard radio phraseology can be very dangerous, it was a major contributor the night the TAA B727 hit the Canadian Pacific DC-8 at Mascot.
Non-standard (by Australia) phraseology ( of which CAA/CASA and ASA had been aware of for years, also resulted in a horribly close near hit between an executive jet and an airline aircraft (from memory a DC-10) of the NSW coast.
See Annex10, Vol.11.
Tootle pip!!
Jepp AU-806
3.5 CHANGE OF LEVELS
3.5.1.6 The pilot in command of an aircraft, receiving an instruction from ATC to change level, must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report
3.5 CHANGE OF LEVELS
3.5.1.6 The pilot in command of an aircraft, receiving an instruction from ATC to change level, must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report