The 912 100 hp is only any good for 600kgs if that.
Just hangar talk I'm afraid. There's a 912 J230 in NsW and performance is reported to be underwhelming. Happy to put anyone in touch with them if required.

At minimum would need IFA prop, need to add this to engine price and then not OK in RAA I believe

Until recently IFA was only ok for a homebuilt RAA, but the regs have changed and IFA's are ok for LSA, just not reversible at this time. I know an LSA floatplane with IFA but they had to disable reverse as that's not covered under ATSM.


I priced up a 914 for a recent project. With a base price of ~$32-34k plus an IFA which is as good as mandatory for a turbo I was looking at around $40k plus custom engine mount plus rooting around fitting it.

I know it's not a turbo but a Jab3300 gets more 5-10 more horsepower for circa $17k with prop.

Fitting a new CAMIT 3300 to throw away at 800 you'd be looking at $20 an hour.

Running off a power by the hour concept, $20 is quite reasonable.

Hey triple x again yr dreaming there buddy more HP, cheap operating costs pale into insgnificance when it all stops mid flight, that's when you wish you had paid a few dollars more for peace of mind:ok:
Safety costs when it comes to a man in a plane/coffin & you could even get the cost almost down to zero using just a rubber band for power but what happens when the turns run out?:E By the sounds of things the Jabarubberband can't keep yr world turning 4ever:E

Wmk2

Yep, what you are saying Wal goes without saying. Agreed.

just when I was about to buy 2 jabiru engines mick had his shed a conrod and seize in flight.

scratch two purchases.

I am told that Jabiru engines are now made in china.
the appearance of the jabiru lookalike is an effort by the australian company that used to do the contract machining to make something of the disaster that they experienced when the contract ceased.

personally I wish jabiru well. but they have to get engines regularly making TBO before they will really get successful.
disasters dont have a great future in aviation.

They aren't made in China.... yet. Some Chinese made components are in testing at the moment. The sump which is a major part of the engine in terms of cost, is actually cast by our Trans-Tasman neighbours in New Zealand.

All currently Australian made in Bundaberg in a custom built multi-million dollar cad/design shop.

made in Bundaberg in a custom built multi-million dollar cad/design shop.

multi million dollar facility eh.
well that makes it all perfectly ok then. :mad:




the end product is still unreliable crap.

XXX works for Jabiru ;)

Yeah that's right Jack. I work in their airconditioned Melbourne based satellite office :ok: We do all of their test flying out of the Melbourne CBD.

Just sayin'

Your secret is out W8 :ok:

http://australianaviation.com.au/wp-...71-300x181.jpg

Turning it into a drone would be safer for the pilot community :ok:

I looked at a Jabiru 3300 for the project, but after reading of the horrific reliability issues and the stupidity of their cylinder head design, not to mention the voodoo necessary to cool them evenly and then of course their known carburettor issues (swirl vanes and flow straighteners anyone?) I gave them a big miss.

The UL power uncertified engines grew as a direct result of Jabirus head in the sand behaviour over helicopter engines.

The South African Jabiru fuel injection project grew as a direct result of Jabirus head in the sand behaviour over carburetion.

The liquid cooled heads project grew as a direct result of Jabirus head in the sand behaviour over cylinder head cooling and sealing.

Frankly, I want nothing to do with a company that isn't prepared to engage with its customer base, admit its fault and actively work with its customers to improve its product.


I now have a 912 iS sitting in its box, and I know that engine was tested in real life in Africa with crap fuel and a less than perfect operating environment and according to the people Im in contact with, it passed with flying colours.

xxx you can wind away all you like.

one engine was for son's corby starlet and one was for an aeroengineer for a totally new design. design is now shelved until a reliable engine can be found.

Just pushing ya buttons W8, I dind't really think you were building a Jabiru Twin.

Sorry for the drift and I'm sure I'll get accused of Rotax bashing, however that's actually quite amusing because Rotax are having significant problems with this engine at present. If you read Rotax's own publications they only produced a fuel injected version to please their customers who kept on telling them to get with the times and fit fuel injection. Experts have suggested that they released it to market too quickly.

There's one in Tassie that regularly flies to Vic or at least it used to until it spent months in a hangar at LTV whilst parts were continually shipped back and forth from Germany. Problems with the injection system. All the experts were at a loss to work out what went wrong and when it was "fixed" it burped and farted the second half of the trip to Tassie again. I have also heard numerous other reports of issues, but on the other hand have also heard a number of good stories.

I would be fairly confident that they will resolve them however if it's been sitting on your floor for a while Sunfish, you may want to talk to Floods about whether the early issues have been addressed.

yes, said before, 912 is exceptionally good engine, not sure variants can say the same yet
Some upset 912iS owners around the world
variable engine performance, poor starting. I too believe they will sort it out but like anything man made will take some time to get there.
Reckon Jabiru might have smaller R&D budget than Bombardier and they still have product development issues with a product they have included on other models for 10 yrs or more.

Jab powered drones running around Middle east I believe

ahhh so that explains the Jabiru excuse that some are operating them in the incorrect weather zones in Australia leading to some failures...

At least Rotax are actively working to resolve the problems with operators, unlike Jab who just seam to keep blaming the operators, and hiding away all failed components and not finding out what causes the issues..

and from what i have been reading, the issues with the 912Is most of the issues are computer and sensor related, the mechanicals of the engine are sound as always. its not going the throw a rod, snap a through bolt, drop a valve etc. a 912IS would make a great replacement for my 912ULS when its reaches TBO. would give me an 8 hour endurance!

failed ECU sure can mean all those things
Anyway whatever the problem no noise = landing

Jabiru engine
 

My 2011 J230SP LSA has 435 hours on it with no engine trouble. I almost always cruise at 2850-2900 rpm's.

The first thing my mechanic did when I bought the plane (new) was re-baffle the engine which resulted in an average reduction in CHT's of 65 degrees farenheit. The factory baffling is inferior which results in higher operating temperatures than are necessary.

If my choice was to correct the baffling and risk the factory's ire or live with the inferior factory baffling and replace the engine, I'd opt for the former.

And BTW, has anyone had the pleasure of an engine out in flight due to improper venting of the fuel tanks from the factory? I did, twice, and there's a simple fix to prevent it.

Two UK engine failures

Engine 1 had 43 hours total since new
Engine 2 had 49 hours total since new



"Three cylinders and their associated pistons were taken to the Materials Department at QinetiQ (Farnborough) for detailed metallurgical examination. Examination of the three cylinders showed that No 3 piston and cylinder exhibited characteristics similar to the No 3 piston and cylinder from G-CEED. The piston/cylinder head interface exhibited sooting on one side of the cylinder, with the corresponding edge of the piston exhibiting burn-through (Figure 2). The internal surface of the cylinder showed evidence of minor wear and material pick-up from the piston at the point of the piston burn‑through. Skirt wear was observed on the piston similar to that observed in the examination of the engine from G-CEED. Minor wear was observed below the burn-through with the opposite skirt exhibiting more severe wear. The other two pistons both exhibited skirt wear similar to the No 3 piston. One of the pistons showed evidence of damage to the edge of the piston crown with reciprocating wear and material pick-up on the internal surface of the cylinder. The damage appeared to be purely mechanical, with no evidence of burn-through as seen in the No 3 piston.
Examination of the piston rings and oil scraper rings showed that the lower piston ring was seized in the closed position on one of the pistons and on another the upper ring was seized at the area of the damage, so that it was flush with the piston edge. The other end of the piston ring was free to move. On the No 3 piston both the lower piston ring and oil scraper ring were seized in the closed position."

Google this title (not a link) for full pdf report with pics
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...Jabiru__G-CEED.

Another excerpt from the report

Carburettor mounting effect on cylinder head temperature

A UK CAA-Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, and owner of a Jabiru-engined aircraft, conducted tests with differing angles of mounting the carburettor to the plenum chamber, and at the same time monitoring cylinder head temperatures (CHT) and exhaust gas temperatures (EGT). He found that by tilting the carburettor 10° to 15° left and right he could obtain a rise and fall in CHTs between Nos 1 & 3 cylinders and Nos 2 & 4 of up to 50°C and EGTs up to 120°C."

so, its more than 12 months now, how are those 912IS's going? good it seams.. ECU and sensor issues sorted. all is good with the world again... amazing what a bit of customer service and feedback achieves...

now, the new 135Hp Rotax in a J230 airframe will be a top seller, indestructible well performing aircraft.. not to mention a decent service ceiling to boot with 100% power available up to 15,000 ft.

Putting a rotax 915 in a jabiru J230 would be serious over capitalization.....

I suspect the installed-weight of any of the Rotax 912-family engines in a Jabiru airframe requires significant compromises in either fuel or crew-weights.

I've heard of Rotax installations in Jabiru airframes. I have actually met someone who claims to have flown one. I have seen a photograph of a J160 purporting to have Rotax 912 installed in it...but I have never actually seen one of these aeroplanes, nor have I seen any review of the performance (or possible lack of it), or the pros and cons of the installation, etc etc etc. Additionally, it is only an option (if it is viable) for home-builders.

Putting any Rotax engine into a Jabiru airframe isn't a simple task. Attractive? Yes. Simple? No.

I know of at least three and have been for a ride in one of them. All of the owners are super happy with the combination, one of them over the moon about it.

Well not really... A J230/430 is roughly an $80k airframe new from the factory and just guessing the engine will push $40k.

How many old C172's or Cherokees are over capitalised?

I doubt that the new rotax 915 will be $40k. The 914 is 28k US and the new 915 will be at least $5k more. add shipping, GST and convert to aussie and you will be north of 50k.

Add a prop to deal with the new power, the cost to install it all and you will endup with a very expensive aircraft. A 912s on the other hand makes some sense.

Unfortunately the 912s is a little underpowered for the J430 which limits options to the Camit at circa 130 hp, the 914, 915 or something else...

http://www.aircraftkits.com.au/jabiru_conversion.html

Should be adequate for the J230@600kg however.

The 915 and CSU prop are a ridiculous amount of money for any aircraft. They make the Lycomings look cheap as chips.

In 2011 I took a lesson (out to the coast, and a couple of circuits at YWVA) in a 24-registered (ie "factory-built") J160 with a 100hp rotax in it. It was a very pleasant plane to fly (but note that this was only the third type I had ever flown). Performance was very acceptable, and definitely better than the J160s with the Jabiru 2200c. I don't remember any strong nose down tendencies.

Mind you, this was a single hour lesson 4 years ago so my memories might not be completely unbiased. My memories of it are definitely better than my current experience of J160s (underpowered).

Two engine failures in one flight, the second one to the ground (airfield)

So,

I had an interesting day with a 'new' plane (microlight) - and am trying to figure out what might have happened. Help appreciated.

I'll bullet point the bits I think important...

• Avid Flyer 4, in great condition.
• Jabiru 2200, in great condition.
• Flight across Alps, south to north.
• Average altitude 9000’, maximum 12K.
• 4 hours.

Took off as normal, but only after a weird whistling on the comms – stopped by removing the aircraft power supply and relying on the 9v battery inside.
After 3 hours, engine started running roughly, occasionally. Carb icing suspected but carb heat had no effect.

Suspected choked/choking mags (no leaning option on this one) – so attempted to lean with fuel tap. Fairly difficult – several donkey stops before I found the point on the tap (only 90 degrees between open and closed!) – but again, no real change/improvement.

Problem increasing – so I increased RPM (from 2600 to 3000) and engine ran faster than for a normal cruise but smoothly, EGT etc. all okay.
Then, silence. Long let down to valley floor (doing all the usual things) engine restarted (by itself) at about 500’ agl – I’d have made my field I think…

Nearest airfield 10 minutes away (long 10 minutes!), engine running smoothly. Made a very tight circuit and once on base reduced power – engine cut. Landing made. Tried to start engine immediately, but barely turned over then clicking from starter (typical weak battery noise). Pushed plane to taxiway and apron…

Closer analysis with a multimeter, battery reading 12.1V and once engine started with external power there was no change to this figure with RPM movement. The aircraft has no electrical system indicators.
30 years flying, and I get two engine failures in one flight!

Answers on a postcard?

Fly safe, Sam.

A bit of the 'pucker factor' in that experience, was there, Sam?
Not being a techie, I'm not able to contribute but I'll watch this one with interest.
Good to hear it ended without tears.

I love a good mystery!

"whistling" = AC voltage from failed or partially failed alternator rectifier? little or no battery charging?

gradually weakening battery voltage reduces sparks at plugs?

After shutdown, battery has enough time for recovery just enough to give you sparks again at 500'?

Why not at least an ammeter light?

Alternative: failing ignition module?

Sam please send a photo of the mags as installed.

Hi Sam,

A few notes for you...


Make sure you leave it on for a while and don't just pull on and then off fairly quickly.

The Jabiru engine has dual ignition coils. It does not have traditional magnetos. As the magnets on the flywheel pass the coils, a spark is generated. In theory no battery power is required, however the battery is required (a flat battery is ok) to complete the circuit. When you talk of "choking the mags" you are talking of fouling spark plugs. Indeed this is possible (whilst fairly unlikely) with the Jabiru / bing carby configuration, particularly at high altitude as the bing carby is not altitide compensating. It allegedly is to an extent but practical experience says otherwise. Who knows how your needle and main jet are configured... potentially it's set as rich as hell and you were very rich up top which should show up with rough running. If that's the case, you'll be so rich that you'll be washing your cylinders with fuel and causing excess wear to your rings and cylinders.

You could be safely assured that this is not a great idea. What you're doing is running the carby bowl out of fuel and then drip feeding from the tap. If you believe you had a flat battery you'd be in strife if the engine stopped on you!

How did the engine start by itself, was it turning over during the descent? Sure, if it turns over fast enough 280rpm approx, it will indeed start if the ignitions are on.


Sounds like your stator isn't working and you simply aren't getting charge. It's pretty common for the two wires that come out of the stator to touch and short out as the plastic covers on the spade terminals are a very soft clear plastic and they rub and melt through. Either that or you have a wiring issue elsewhere. Check the wires running from the stator to the regulator. The light blue 16 gauge wires are the ones that are connected to the stator.

Consider fitting an AMPS meter or a volts meter as a minimum. There are plenty on EBay, in fact some simply plug into a cigarette lighter socket - can't get much easier than that.

If you are regularly going to fly at high altitudes and you already have EGT gauges, I recommend fitting a Hacman mixture controller. It's a needle valve on the dash with a couple of plastic hoses - one is tapped into the carby vent line and the other to the vacuum under the carby. You will then be able to lean your mixture at higher altitudes which will not only keep the EGT's the same as sea level, but also reduce fuel consumption and premature wear (as above). I have one and it works brilliantly. Very easy to fit and if you buy their version perhaps around $200. You could do it yourself by using hose and a dentist style needle valve with tap - all available from Ebay.

so jabs have mag coils, does this exonerate the battery?

First part is correct. Second part is not unless this particular aircraft has a non Jabiru wiring arrangement. On a standard Jabiru the battery can fall out of the plane and the engine will run normally till the fuel runs out.http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

As this aircraft is not a Jabiru (only it's engine) a few questions come to mind:-

Why cruise at 2,600 RPM when Jabiru recommends 2,850 - 2,950 RPM ? Jabiru does not recommend cruising at 2,600 revs You can run it at higher than 2,950 revs but it will chew fuel.

Does the aircraft cruise fast enough to provide adequate cooling?

Are cooling tubes installed to direct cool air onto the ignition coils as called out in Jabiru aircraft? If you don't have them the coils can overheat and run intermittently.

When you went to 3,000 revs did you return the fuel tap to full flow? If you didn't the fuel flow wouldn't have been enough to keep the engine going.

Correct you are. I didn't go into too much detail as you generally need the battery to start it :-)

I had discounted the coils breaking down because they generally don't go U/S at the same time. I find with dodgey ones that they start to run rough about 5 minutes after takeoff (and over a certain RPM - around 2,800+ usually) and even though they are redundant, you can still notice things aren't going well when one of them is misbehaving.

The issue described smells like the stator but I'm at a loss to know why it would have stopped the engine. Doesn't sound like fuel, but does sound a little like coils, but being redundant... not sure.

Warning. Thread drift but still relevant.
Over the last 12 months for various reasons there has been dramatic increase in compliance to the Service bulletins/ Letters and maintenance procedures issued by Jabiru This combined with Jabiru engine training workshops has resulted in fewer incidents and has put Jabiru engines well ahead of Rotax for reliability, the standard by which CASA based their aggressive actions.

does anyone have numbers for the Jab fleet in the last 2 years?

Majority of engines with problems were in flight training........all maintained by L2 or LAME
Self maintained others saw very few problems. Older versions even less

I heard 7000 engines, 2000 Jab airframes

Jetjr, I think you have this backwards. Flying training has a far better record than owner maintained. The private self maintained ones I have seen seldom do 500 hours between major work. The ones in the flying school I worked for regularly reached 1000 hours untouched and were returned to the factory for an exchange in lieu of doing a top end overhaul. Ditto for other flying schools that I know that operate Jabs

Using a Jab engine daily seems to be good for reliability. Ones that sit in hangers for weeks or months at a time don't seem to last many hours. Outdoor storage with infrequent use is a recipe for early failure.