Jabiru Bad experience
 

Ladies and gents, I would like to share my experience thus far with this product and the factory that makes them.
I own 2 Jabirus, a 230-D and a 160-C both aircraft have been an absolute nightmare when it comes to reliability.
The J230 suffered its first engine failure at 225 hours requiring a complete Top end, subsequently it suffered multiple component failures up until its final demise at 700 hrs with Jabiru admitting it was the failed thru bolt design that destroyed the bottom end, not once did they offer any support even after multiple requests.
The J160 suffered an in flight engine failure under 200 hours since the factory performed a top end overhaul( thru bolt failure)! since I have owned it three heads have failed due cracking and valve seat movement multiple other component failures and the nail in the coffin for this engine was a valve seat falling out at idle on the first pre-flight run up of the day all within 300 hrs of the Top end overhaul.
The factory have not once offered to help, never shown the slightest empathy or a desire to support a customer. They display a complete disregard for factual evidence when providing an excuse why a component failed.
I have been bullied, ignored and treated like a fool.
Not one Jabiru engine in my local area has made the 1000 hr TBO and not one owner would purchase another Jabiru.
The business manager has treated me with arrogance of the highest order and display's what I can only describe as an extremely deceptive nature.
The business manager flat out refuses to return my property, and will not listen to any reason or evidentiary facts stating that they must return it.
One investigation conducted by the company as to why a cylinder dropped a valve seat and had cracking, had three different conclusions over multiple days.
I regret the day that I purchased both of these aircraft, they have cost me a small fortune to keep running and I warn others to do their home work thoroughly before spending your money with them.

Slow learner? :E

Dr :8

Hmmm, that's a pretty sad indictment of a company and its products - but unfortunately, you have plenty of unhappy fellow owners.
Just googling "Jabiru problems" and "Jabiru engines", will give one enough alarming reading material, to ensure that a potential purchaser wouldn't buy one - let alone two.

Whist I sympathise with you to an extent, I don't think joining pprune to slag out one of the only Australian aircraft manufacturers and the only Australian aircraft engine will help your cause, whatever it may be.

Elsewhere on another forum you have posted the exact same information as you have here but then gone on to post an independent third party report on the condition of your engine. In this report it specifically states that the examined engine has suffered a significant heat related event, but yet you are blaming Jabiru for operator error?

The report then goes on to say that issues with the thru bolts caused problems with your engine which is fair enough as this is / was a known issue.

I would be looking closer to home to determine who is flying and potentially mis-managing your engines....:ugh:

Have to disagree with you on this one X .... I for one don't frequent any other forums at the moment, so any information is good information if it helps save my wrinkly butt .... Perhaps All the previous issues with the Jab engines have been rectified and if so all to the better for Jabiru ... I certainly support Australian manufactured products however I have had some previous experience with the product that was not up to the job and haven't been back for another go.

'Triple x' I reckon bloody good job this guy is handing over his experiences that way anyone contemplating buying one of these 'things' can see both sides, the manufactures side who will do anything to sell a product as after all it is a commercial venture to someone out there in the field first hand.
The heat related event/issues doesn't necessarily mean it's an operator issue could be the design itself or the guy has a 'Monday' engine/plane, plenty of them around that's for sure!

If I where going to do sumfin' dumb like buy a Jabajunk then I'd be reining in LOTS of info so I can make an informed decision.
Good on you 'Deady' for putting it out there we would all do the same if the shoe was on the other foot am sure of that:ok:

:8Dr I reckon yr the slow learner buddy:E, I mean you fly a plane all over the place that wobbles around like a drunken elephant in the sky, imagine how much fuel you would save over the life of the engine if it could fly direct to where ya wanna go rather than a little bit left, a little bit right for the next 20000 miles!:E:E

Wmk2

Jabiru problems
 

The "heat related issue" is a common "out" by Jabiru. You can buy the J230 from the factory with steam gauges so you only have one CHT which is located on number 6 cylinder. The POH states that the engine can operate upto 350F continuously. The reality is that No. 6 is often not the hottest cylinder, no. 4 is and the CHT should never go over 270 (a tech from Jabiru was shocked when I mentioned 350 and he told me never over 270). And thanks to the RAAus rules you cannot change anything without factory authorisation if being used in a flying school, so you can't change the position of the CHT sensor, or fix the baffles etc. So no. 4 gets too hot, valve drops off and Jabiru go " ooh you cooked the engine, sorry that's abuse... No warranty.
The above is what happened to me J230 after 283 hours.

Perhaps DeadStick can also post the independent report here so we can all make a more informed decision.

Wally, with a Jab as per other types too correct operation is very important; there have been many occurrences of students cooking engines by climbing too steeply, prolonged climbs not IAW best practices etc. If the level of diligence was applied to Jabiru engine operation as that of a turbine or perhaps a turbocharged Lycoming, much of the noise would go away. Sure sure you can say that students fly 150's around all day without issues but it is what is as they say!

Known issues and thru bolts I have no issue with, they have identified these. Unfortunately what we have here is a one-sided view at best from a disgruntled customer for which the full reasons we will never fully learn.

Dexta - the heat issue was identified by a third party and has not been used as an "out" in this case.

XXX unfortunately the POH states that CHT can be upto 350F (the green arc) and if you only have one CHT Sensor the CHT can be "in the green" but one or more cylinders are getting hot. Students can be operating the aircraft by the POH but damage may still be being done to the engine.

'Tx' seeing as this Jab thingy is aimed at the private pilot & training market both area's may not be engineering savvy you would think that any manufacturer would design a product that can take the added stress of climbing too steeply as just an Eg, I mean sheez man has been designing infernal combustion donks for a couple of years now so it's a cop out that Jabajunk put their obvious limitations back on to the operator for the most basic environment their products are going to be found/operated, flying!:ugh:
As 1track said there's plenty of bad reading of jaba products this guys problems are but a very small part of it all.
It's all about choice, you wouldn't go & buy the first fridge you come across you'd be doing some research, that goes for everything & more so if yr gunna park ya ass in it!:-)


Wmk2

All logical there Wal. I won't say any more for a number of reasons other than to say that I know of someone that cooked 5 out of 6 cylinders when he hired a "real" engined GA aircraft through mis-management so I don't usually blame the factory in the first instance in any such occurrence.

XXX You must be living on another planet to not be aware of the many, many, many Jabiru engine issues.

If 100% of them were reported - there would be some 'activity' within the regulatory ranks. For many, and varied, reasons - most are not reported.... probably because the owner wants to onsell the problem aircraft .... asap.

happy days,

Is Jabiru subcontracting to Continental? :E

Awwww come on OA my 0300 is still powering on after 13years ....:ok:

Poteroo I am quite aware with approaching 1000 hours behind them whilst maintaining them.

Old Akro, funny that, I was actually referring to a Continental engine above!

All the clowns are not in the circus !
 

We just completed 1000 hours of flight training without a hitch + 980 on the prior engine, we do factory exchange at 1000 as a matter of course and the aircraft is run to SOPS on mostly training with some club member use.

In my 45 years of commercial flying, the Jabiru J170C, which is what I'm familiar with, is a lovely forgiving airplane and one that I'm happy to fly personally and to send 15 or 70 year old students solo in. I find it a shame that Pprune and some of it's regular contributors in particular, continuously grip about the Jabiru aircraft, engine or the manufacturer.

Why not talk about something more important, like:-

"One particular concern is that Flying Training Facilities (i.e. FTFs and SFTFs) have, up until now, been afforded the full benefits of our Member Liability insurance cover without contributing to the annual premium cost. It has also emerged that, unlike affiliated Clubs, our FTFS and SFTFs make no recurrent financial contribution towards the organisation’s running costs".

Talk about bite the hand that feeds you ... You have a greater risk to your future with this new development than wondering about J2200 or such engines, irrespective of the make !

i have read the report on the other forum, and the temps went high, but high temps for a short period doesn't have much to do with abnormal cylinder wear, or the crankshaft journal wear caused by the SB. Significant wear of cylinder barrels at 730 hours???

my 912 now has 1000 hrs, flown hard, cruise at 5200rpm, flown regularly on days with OATs in the 40's plenty of short field work with max angle climbs to 1000 agl or more. and still can see the factory hone marks on the cylinder walls.

a Rotax powerplant in a Jabiru airframe and they would almost quite literally have a bulletproof aircraft on their hands...

In September last year a post entitled 'Two more Jabirus down' may be of interest to contributors to this current Jabiru engine problem post if they missed it at the time. I think the following is still relevant.


I attended a forum at Oshkosh on Jab cooling presented by Robert Gutterage. Maybe most of Jabs problems are insufficient cooling going undetected due to incorrect CHT information being presented to the pilot. Certainly Robert presented a very well researched forum backed up by hard data. Note :- He had data - not a bunch of 'I thinks'. He showed slides of what he did to solve the problem in his aircraft, as well as the 'before' data.

Apologies to Tim Juhl for pinching the following from a forum on Jabs.
(Remember-stealing articles from one writer is plagiarism----stealing from many is research.)

Quote:

---

I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indicated CHT's about 70° cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control.

I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.

For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out EAA AirVenture Oshkosh - The World's Greatest Aviation Celebration
EAA AirVenture Oshkosh - The World's Greatest Aviation Celebration

---

It's worth looking at the last web site outlining Robert's qualifications. He's the right man for the job.

For all those who want to junk the Jab engine for as yet no clearly defined problems it would be good if you reflected on the Wright R3350 turbo compound engine used in the B29 and in the Super Constellation. When those engines were first used their TBO was typically 200 to 600 hours. Ouch
After they learned to operate them properly (essentially by running them lean of peak) they were often getting TBOs of 3,600 hours all with 1940s technology. Lycoming and Continental should hang their heads in shame.
RA

Buckets of sh!t. Am I hearing that it's left up to the owner to fix overheating problems? Typical arrogant, useless Australian lack of service :ugh:

Jack, I don't think Australian businesses can be singularly blamed for any leading position with regard to lack of service, or poor design in IC engines. The problem is endemic, and even the largest manufacturers are guilty of it.

There are two major problems here. One is, a possible lack of substantial testing before release of a product or an altered design. The problem with many small companies is the lack of resources to carry out adequate testing - the problem with many large companies is the desire to rush products into the marketplace without adequate testing, and before all the "bugs" are sorted.

The end-user then becomes the "test-bed" for the product. This is annoying enough when the financial losses created by products failing to perform, hurt.
It's downright scary when your life is on the line - as with aviation products - due to those products failing to perform as expected.

The second problem is the standard company answer, that all product problems are the result of the end-user failing to operate, maintain, or repair the item as outlined by the manufacturer.

This is the easiest "out" in the world for all manufacturers, and one used by all of them, as well.
It is an answer driven by a (rightly-believed) fear of overwhelming ligitation following on automatically, from any admittance of a basic design fault.

It does not have to happen this way. If company managers agreed to a co-operative agreement to work with end-users, to identify and correct any faults perceived - without fear of company-destroying litigation - then the end result would be greatly beneficial to both groups.

However, I can't see this happening anytime soon - as the current culture of "deny everything, and blame the operator", is an endemic corporate culture, that has been in place for many decades - and it will take a brave manager or small manufacturer to buck the culture and prove that a co-operative effort is in the best interests of all.

Has anyone got any ACTUAL Statistical Facts on the Jabirus? So far we all seem to be relying on either:
A. "My mate Barry from down the road and myself both own a Jabiru and they both had engine problems, so it can't be our fault!!"
OR
B. "Well, mine has run alllll the way to TBO and I'm running it perfect so it must be the fault of the people using them..."

i thinks thats half of the problem, there is little in the way of facts, as once failed components are sent to Jabiru, they are never seen or heard from again. no reports, nothing.

Hi XXX,
sure its the usual default to blame the operator and I can assure you that your not the first. If I am doing something wrong then the POH needs amendment, Both my Jabs are fitted with full CHT and EGT monitoring, and the overheating event was indeed a climb out issue where number #4 skyrocketed above 200c with a CFI and an instructor at the controls.


I will paste the history of the J160 from the CASA defect report up for a read.


XXX, I didn't join PPrune to Slag off a company, I have been on here as a viewer since 2011, I retired from the military due an injury after 10 years as an aircraft engineer and 10 as a Pilot, I am working as a LAME at the moment and like to think I know the pointy end of a plane from the blunt.


I posted the info on every website I could find as I believe its a first hand account based on fact, If I save one person from making the same mistake as me then I will be happy.


I'm sure your post wasn't personal, and I respect your objective view but I can assure you I will no longer go along with the factories poor record.

History: the aircraft was purchased from Leaseair PTY LTD by me at 1318.0 ( post through bolt failure).
Prior to my ownership the engine was sent back to the factory at 1100 TTIS ( 15/08/10 for a top end overhaul due low compression and TBO, on its return and after install and runin it was fine, up until 1200.8 (100.8 TTSO) when it was noted to be weeping oil around the base of the barrels and the orange sealant used on either side of the shims was peeling away.
A call was placed to Jabiru (Don I think, called me chief) who informed that it is not U/S pending a successful torque check of the through bolts, which showed nil movement.
I was informed that the cylinders could be lifted and more orange sealant applied if it was bothering me I noted that it was just a clean up issue to the owner and it was elected to put up with the weeping.

At 1314.6 TTIS (214.6 TTSO) a pilot annotated that it did not make minimum static rpm (As per POH) so after the usual checks the carburettor was removed and serviced with corrosion under the bellows being found, this was discussed again with the factory the corrosion treated and the jetting checked, post reinstall it would still not make static RPM and I was advised that it is fine and that the factory was releasing an amendment to this requirement.

At 1318.0 (218.0 TTSO) the engine suffered an inflight through bolt failure of number 2 Cyl and was put down in a paddock, subsequent investigation revealed that The SB for the through bolt nuts had not been carried out and the time to comply had just expired 29/04/12.
Prior to release of this SB the through bolts were discussed with the factory ( the engine had only just been installed, post Top end at the time of the weeping problems) and the advice was that all engines would be done whenever they were returned for major service and not to worry about it.
So leasair elected to leave it as is and no reference was made to the SB again until after the failure! our mistake!!!

Post failure the engine was inspected, repaired, new T/Bolts, new #2 piston and cylinder, heads visually checked re-lapped and engine run in.

At 1351.2 TTIS (251.2 TTSO) number 2 Cylinder exhaust valve was leaking past the seat, the head was removed and it was noted that there was cracking and pitting around both inlet and exhaust seats so it was rejected and a new head purchased and installed.
A bore scope revealed none of the same on the other cylinder heads...

At 1475.6 TTIS (375.6 TTSO) the engine dropped an exhaust valve seat whilst sitting at idle prior to takeoff on first flight of the day, luckily the seat wedged sideways and was retained buy the valve sticking open and slightly impacting the top of the piston.

Upon disassembly (see pictures) the other two older heads show signs of the valve seats moving, the engine has never been over temped the heads show no abnormal signs of cylinder creep, it has CHT and EGT on each cylinder and the dynon EMS log showed it has always been within limits.

Other things noticed on disassembly:
1. locating dowel under the distributor drive shaft was not installed correctly and was eating into the shaft slightly.
2. Sump had a 2 inch piece of cylinder O-ring rubber sitting at the bottom and the usual carbon, a few pieces of metal.
3. the sump flange had a ding in it at the same location that it used to weep ever so slightly.
4. #4 cylinder head intake runner has a crack forming down the face of the valve boss.
5. lots of excess flange sealant inside the engine.

interesting
 

interestingly I just received and email from a member of a UK jabiru forum, apparently its common knowledge in the UK that the generation 2 cylinder heads crack between the inlet and exhaust ports. This may explain why Jabiru refuses to return my heads after I stated that I would like an independent report as I didn't think their explanation that a leaking exhaust on one head caused all to overheat in the exhaust valve area, co-incidentally the business manager had no knowledge of heads ever cracking before!

393 deg Farenheit = 200 deg celcius.

This is a standard Jabiru CHT gauge; note the markings.

http://www.sky-craft.co.uk/acatalog/ru189.jpg

So you say that an instructor lett his happen? Normal operating temps are 275f / 135c :hmm:

With all due respect I would consider taking your aircraft offline from that flying school.

Deadstick 1
I'm interested in what type of CHT sender probes you have. Is it a washer under the spark plug type or a screw into the head type?
Robert Gutterage spent a fair bit of his Oshkosh forum showing the very different readings produced by two different systems.
Cheers RA

XXX, POH states top of green arc is 180 degrees c, and operations above that up to 200c for no longer than five minutes. The aircraft has full CHT and EGT on all cylinders and a flashing light on the display once a cylinder exceeds 180. The CFI stated to me that it happened so fast the light flashed grabbing his attention and he watched the temp rocket through 200 within the time it took to advise the Pilot in command as soon as the throttle was reduced to idle the engine began running rough and they declared a PAN and conducted a glide approach to back to the field, subsequently the engine stopped just after touchdown. These guys are very professional and of note was the fact that all other cylinders stayed below limits. There was no evidence that the EMS sender on that cylinder was faulty but it was replaced anyway and was discounted by the inspector. They could not find anything wrong with the cylinder that would suggest leaning out but I relayed my concerns about the intake plenum to tube design that relies on an o-ring and goop to seal.

They were the washer under the spark plug type during this incident but I have since changed them to the latest configuration of a screw in the head between the plugs.

Have you noted any variation between the temp readings you are now seeing and those you saw with the original system when flown under similar conditions?
Cheers RA

Yeah but its a new engine and an slightly different duct, it runs about 20c cooler across all cylinders

Hi DeadStick, I've re-read your independent report elsewhere and have continuing thoughts on the issues that you have experienced.

It appears that crankcase fretting has occurred due to a loss of torque of the engine thru-bolts which were subsequently replaced under the documented SB for Jabiru engine thru bolts.

Did you maintain this aircraft engine the whole time since new?
Did you / whoever check the tension of the thru-bolts at any time that you were maintaining the engine?
Why didn't you present the engine log books to Jabiru or the independent third-party company that you engaged to review the teardown?
When were the thru-bolts replaced?

The Jabiru service bulletin was released in April 2011 where the thru-bolts had to be replaced, however your independent report was from March 2013.

For engines under 500 hours the compliance was within 100 hours or 12 months. For engines over 500 hours it was 200 hours or 12 months.)

Without the log books for the engine there is no evidence of correct maintenance at all and for all anyone knows, the engine may not have had correct maintenance.

If you were take this to an appeals tribuneral, fair trade, consumer affairs or a court of law, you'd have no evidence by which to support your case.

That's just the thru-bolt issue. Then there's the heads cracking. You have identified that 3 heads have cracked and failed. The Dynon engine monitoring instruments keep detailed information on engine performance and store it to a SATA hard drive for quite some time. Was this information reviewed in conjunction with the preparation of the report?

The report has also stated that the temperature on one head reached 180c and therefore the headS are considered scrap. This would indicate that the over-heating condition was not just limited to a single head as you've identified that your CFI reported.

I'm not getting a clear picture of the true story based on the evidence provided and feel that this is nothing more than the result of a vexatious falling-out between you and Jabiru.

You wouldn't happen to be trying to unload one would you 3X?

Nope. I just like to see a balanced argument with facts from both sides rather than just a one sided social media / forum slagging campaign. (It's a pity we don't have Jabiru here to defend themselves) The nett result of these campaigns is that once a company goes broke you won't have to worry about thru bolts or heads because you will no longer be able to buy them! It's not like you can buy Jabiru heads from Superior !

Small apologies there DeadStick but your post #24 didn't appear until just now which answered some of my questions possibly because when you posted it you were still a probationary user.


It all makes sense now that you mentioned where the aircraft came from. I wonder if yours was ever based at Bankstown. I recall a thread about some 160's at Bankstown a few years back.

About the ONLY thing that can cause this kind of action is a preignition event, usually from a cracked ceramic on a spark plug. Or a tiny slim chance of a helicoil tang protruding into the head.

Jab heads do not have helicons (or they did not long ago) so a spark plug, most likely dropped caused this. Rough mechanics?

...hey I was wondering where you have been Jabb Dabba Doo, we need yr expertise here buddy:ok:

"Deady" you don't need to justify or explain anything to anyone here buddy, you posted yr experiences of said jabajunk & if anyone was going to buy such a 'thing' then it's up to them to take ALL info in:ok:
If I heard just one tiny bit of bad info regarding any product I would then do my own homework, not listen to anyone else experiences trying to cover up what you have had.


Wmk2

Yes, i was at the controls when this particular engine fried.
It happended within a few seconds and there wasnt much i could do about it.
I am a little tired of hearing about the "operator error". Look dudes, the FACT is, this plane was always operated within the specs of both the maintenance manuals and the flight manuals. It cooked in seconds and has yet to be fully explained.
If this failure was some sort of random out of the blue failure then I wouldn;'t have much more to say about it. But its far from random, the donks are rubbish. Pure and simple. yea sure, blame the operator or the maintainer, but sooner or later this Jabiru copout will have to be answered to with facts. When you do try this you are greeted with the sort of underhanded BS that deadstick has posted here.
The simple solution for my school has been to go back to a real aeroplane engine. And low and behold.....problem solved... No more random failures and rubbish factory attitudes.. Just constant, reliable, trustworthy performance..
Sorry jB, BUT WE TRIED TO USE YOUR PRODUCT. BUT IT FAILED ..MISERABLY..
PS. having operated half a dozen of these things over multiple years in a variety of conditions, i believe my statements are backed by actual experience, and not just hearsay etc.

I should add, I was referring to the J230 engine overheat. Not the4 J160 with the lemmon engine.

Motzartmerv, any idea why the log books weren't sent to the engine facility and third party engine inspector?

It's like sending in your car at 80,000kms with no books and asking for a warranty claim on the engine.