Jabba,
"Complete lack of data along with so many experts having their opinion along the ay mean finding the truth is almost impossible"


This is why I want them back, and that's why they won't give them back!

Ok thanks. I thought Deadstick gave a pretty detailed explanation about both failures, with an engine report aswel. I was just relaying what happened from the cockpit. Not being an engineer I am relying on the lames technical description of the post failure inspections.

Your right about the experts. But even the factory experts (small engine mechanics) have not been able to explain why either of these failures occurred.

It would seem DeadStick that based on the information from your previous post that your warranty is void unless there is a subsequent SB after JSL007-4 from December 6th 2011.

http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20B...l_Guidance.pdf

(Not my boldings)

At what stage did I say I was using a "shandie"? lol


I have asked the factory about this on a previous occasion, they stated that its fine to top up on either fuel provided one or the other is the majority in the tank. Also I was told that it was to stop a trend that was developing, of people mixing 91ulp with avgas! had nothing to do with 98+.


When I say fuel up at other locations its a case of leaving 'home base' burning down to practical and topping up with the other until I get home.


To be clear the engine is out of warranty!

Wow..shandies now. What else can we come up with?

XXX the longer this goes on the more you sound like a factory rep. The guy has come on here to air his grievances about what appears to me to be a legitimate issue...not just for him but potentially all Jab drivers. It would seem that every scenario you have suggested has been adequately explained, now it just looks like you are the one pooh-poohing....just like Jab seem to be doing!

Hi all, long time watcher here.

I owned a Jabiru UL450, purchased it from the builder here in NZ.

Total engine hours are about 850, and has run perfect since day one. This is a 2200

Only issue I have had, is that uncommanded flap retraction, which was on very short finals, as soon as it happened, I applied full power and didn't hesitate to go around to check what was up and happening.

What caused that? Simple, just wear on the through bolt, quick tighten and check, and never happened again.

Deadstick

Just to clarify then.
1. Caltex 98 is fine, but it will increase CHT over Avgas (100MON or about 110RON) The shandi mix of 98/avgas is fine and I agree with the blocking 91UL/avgas.

2. The piston ring sticking with avgas is a known issue, should have been helped with the latter piston design with wider grooves not the std groove of a ULP auto engine. I have no idea how successful this was or is.

3. Seems CHT is a major contributor and I wonder just how well the cooling works around the whole area of the cylinder.

My opinions.....OK...these are WAG's but from a semi reasonable position to comment. Oil changes every 25 hours and not 50. Keep the indicated CHT (not necessarily the entire head) below 300 as there may well be parts that are much higher. Head torque checked every 25.

Climb speeds need to be nothing like the range of Vx or Vy and my suggestion is take Vy and x 1.32. Good reason for this, but not related to the topic but it will give you the climb sped I feel is likely to yield better results.

Email address is on its way. Probably not much more I can add here.

How does a run away CHT relate to the bottom end being destroyed? Unless the rer was a destroyed piston and the debris went through the places wrecking everything else. Or magically the heat was channelled through one pot? :confused: Does not add up does it?

Jaba,

Surely in this age of technical expertise they can design a better engine than this?

I only ever flew Jabirus and other Ultralights for a very limited number of hours and could never feel at ease with the engine spinning above 5000 RPM. I realise they need this speed to produce the desired power output, and it's a case of chasing ones own tail regarding power vs weight.

Spend enough money and anything is possible.
Sorry for the link, couldn't get the Youtube link thingy to work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsa6kq-qqIE

This video shows an operational cutaway of a BMW S1000RR — a 193HP superbike — bumping against its 14,200RPM redline. A cam and valvetrain at 118 cycles per second is an amazing sight (and sound)
Obviously not a suitable engine for an aircraft and probably has HUGE maintenance / reliability problems of it's own. However a pretty cool video to watch.

Nah I've got nothing to do with the factory; I'm happy with what has been eventually posted. First off was what looked like a one-sided grudge against Jabiru and their customer service. Now what we have with the quoted emails from Jabiru plus more information on the operation and history of the aircraft, readers are now able to make an informed decision for themselves and decide whether or not do deal with Jabiru or use their products in the future.

Those that haven't yet seen this might find it interesting:
New Camit Aero Engines | CamitAeroEngines

2 dogs. i dont think you flew a jab that revved at 5000 rpm. A rotax powered jab perhaps?
I agree though. We should have better engines avialable. I recall jabiru brought out a recommendation that the engines get a 25 hourly oil change. We immediately adopted this procedure IAW with factory directions. The 2200 engine was subject to this schedule at the time of the failure, and (at a guess) for the previous 100 hours leading up to it.

motzartmerv,

I do believe they were Rotax powered. Long time ago now.
I just remember the poor little things screaming and wondering how reliable they were. I saw the internals of a few and decided they looked a bit ...

There were some issues with the engines and the flying school eventually went Cessna.

Rotax reliability is now on par with the big bore cousins,Lycoming and continentals. i am just as confident behind a rotax as i am behind the IO540, even fly my own at cruise rpm of 5200rpm, keeping the revs higher keeps the internal pressures lower, runs smoother and never had a fault yet in just on 1000hrs behind it. i will fly behind jabs, and have flown them for quite some time, but i find myself a little more vigilant of potential landing areas when behind the jabiru.

Jabba
It could be related as follows. From time to time when using nearly 100% unleaded (especially during long hot slow climbs) the peak pressure moved back to TDC thus exerting a greater than normal load on the bottom end and high heat loads on the top end. The engine was strong enough to cop this a few times but couldn't do it forever.A bit like a mistimed engine--sometimes you get away with it but for how long?

Eventually with maybe a bit of help from detonation the engine throws in the towel.The first cylinder to overheat detonated and the bottom end weakened with the through bolt issue and earlier unwitting abuse, fails.

This is not necessarily what happened but it is a possibility. I wonder how many failures of this type of have occured in engines which never use mogas.

Cheers RA

if it was fuel/mogas related, then wouldn't we see the similar failures within the rotax fleet, which preferred fuel is Mogas. or is the situation avoided with the higher revs effectively moving peak pressures thurther from TDC? (which is why i run mine at 5200rpm)

The independent engine inspection report details that the bottom-end damage wasn't a result of the engine over-heating.

Perhaps DeadStick you can post that report on here too please for the likes of Jabba and others?

Not if the Rotax timing is set up for Mogas .Then adding Avgas has the same effect as slightly retarding the timing which isn't hard on the engine unlike advancing the timing which is very hard on them.

More importantly, the annomoly would show up in the num,bers. There is no evidence to suport EITHER fuel being more or less "unreliable" in jab engines that im aware of. If 98 octane was causing issues, then im sure we would be onto it by now., The fact is there seems to be no common denominator. We have looked, hard. The only real thing we have noticed, is that blokes who do NOT follow the advice from Jab seem to have a better time. I dont mean that in a nasty way, its an observation.

XXX,
Just sent the full PDF with pics to Jaba

Two dogs,

Do not confuse me with the factory, but my comments were just an opinion in this case, and stated as such, that with a very small sump Qty, leaded fuel and high f/a ratios that more often would be prudent. In fact Rotax recommend this is using leaded fuel. As for head torque, sure they could design a better method, like a TCM/LYC design, but it is not.

RA....that is a long bow to draw as you say, but yeah I can see it is possible. I doubt the C98 or BP98 would be enough of a change in thetaPP and the timing is fixed, but what else? Again how would we know. Not enough data or evidence so far.

UL
the Rotax engine is a water-cooled head and a bit different to an air cooled TCM/LYC etc in that respect. It has a similar compression ratio or a bit higher and 26DBTDC, so it is taking advantage of the H2O and 98PULP

There are a wide range of different "Jabiru" engines including newer variants from those who actually make them. Some core improvements I think. First is to return to older solid lifter design, new cylinders and some head upgrades.

Isnt a key problem with Mogas the longevity and variable performance this brings, let alone other more detailed problems outlined by others

I have an 800hr 3300 with very few problems, Jabiru have always been excellent to deal with.
Always fly with an eye for a landing spot.....doesnt everyone flying singles?

They arent Rotax 912 or 914, few pretend they are, these Jabiru cost way less to own and operate, an entire brand new 120 hp engine is ~$19K.
Cheap and easy maintenance doesnt always equal well done and sure theres some conflicting service and operation data out there.

As far as DS problems go, maybe Im mixing incidents but heres an engine running on mixture of fuels, overheated (something gone very wrong), significant SB not carried out. At least a few issues piling up. What did you expect Jabiru to do? Seems they may have offered reco parts.

How recently have you gone back to Nissan or Toyota with a fatally busted engine and been received warmly. How about a LAME after a rebuild?

Jabiru do use std W100+ oil, significant work has been done to look at better options in the future, hopefully correcting some problems.

Good onya jet. Glad jab have treated you well, but like you said, you havnt had any issues with your engine yet ay? So applaes for apples..your selling oranges.
When did DS say he ran a mixture of fuels? He ran 98 octane. Very rarely the tanks got topped up with AVGAS. in the 300 hours in question, probably 30 or 40 litres TOTAL avgas.
What SB was not carried out on these two engines?
As far as im aware jabiru haven't recommended W100 oil for some time. I could be wrong but i recall them insisting we change to 15/50 some years ago.

Aeroshell 100 for run-in.
W100+ for continued use.

Don't confuse the W's and the +'a as there is also a W100 with no plus.

From the current maintenance manual for the 2200 engine.

Aero Oil W Multigrade 15W-50, or equivalent
Lubricant complying with MIL-L-22851C, or
Lycoming Spec. 301F, or Teledyne –
Continental Spec MHF-24B

Jetjr,
Well here we go again hey?


"As far as DS problems go, maybe Im mixing incidents but heres an engine running on mixture of fuels, overheated (something gone very wrong), significant SB not carried out. At least a few issues piling up. What did you expect Jabiru to do? Seems they may have offered reco parts."


No mixture!
Mate the engine never overheated!


Your right! under the previous owner the thru bolt SB was not carried out, this was because Don Richter from Jabiru advised them that it wasn't required and that all engines were being done when they were returned for overhaul! They missed the deadline by 4 days! pretty telling that it snapped one under 200 hrs from Top end overhaul though!


The 3300 on the other hand did have the SB incorporated, and in the report into its demise at 700hrs Jabiru themselves explain that the SB destroyed the bottom end due to closing up the fretted crank cases with the extra torque. So that engine wasn't fit for purpose from the get go!


I for one am not expecting any Jabiru warranty ( there's a reason it was reduced from 500 hrs to 200), what I am expecting though is my consumer rights to be upheld! To talk on The simplest of consumer rights and one of the many basis for claim, neither engine could be described as fit for purpose, of which based on the log books and correspondence a very expensive lawyer has said they are in breech and is preparing the case.


I am so happy for you that you are getting a relatively good run from their product, this thread is about the other 95% of people who are getting shafted day in and day out by them, but congrats to you.


By all means keep pointing your finger, one day you may find it pointing back at you!


(I am sorry this seems a little poorly toned I usually enjoy reading your posts)

XXX,
hope you don't have any failures, LOL cause this will be the reason after the factory investigate:


"Aeroshell 100 for run-in.
W100+ for continued use.

Don't confuse the W's and the +'a as there is also a W100 with no plus".


meant to be Light hearted in tone!

Lol.Lets hope insurers dont read prune huh?..Or we'd all be stuffed..

Jaba,

I was in no way questioning your opinion, or inferring you were in any way factory aligned or opinionated. In fact I look forward to your input; you seem to know what you are talking about in most cases.

I just feel that with current technology, better design and manufacture is possible if the dollars are spent wisely. This may include stronger (more expensive) alloys used in component production. If a head needs torqueing down every 25 hours, is this the cheap retaining bolts stretching or the cheap alloys compressing?

Of course it all costs motza dollars in certification, but surely the same cost for any level of design; just higher design and build costs? “Build it and they will come”

This is purely my opinion; I hold no engineering qualifications at all, but have successfully built more than one high performance V8 engine, gearbox, limited slip differential, auto transmission etc. This was all done by research, (Haynes Manuals, God bless em) and following the accepted current engineering practices. Of course, I had an advantage, I was using superior parts with a proven history. I did not have to design or manufacture them myself.

As an aside, I grew up on Cleveland and Windsor 302 and 351 engines. I can still remember the beautiful note they produced running on a twin 2’’ sports exhaust system, particularly the Ford XY GTHO Phase III shifting into top gear some five miles (remember them) out of town. :ok:

95% owners with problems?? Is that another evidence based claim. Id point to 95% being happy and 5% complaining loudly and on some cases rightly so.

There are plenty of things jabiru could do better and the Latest tech manuals are pretty good, compared to originals. An issue is the adjustment and changes with no comms to owners and maintainers. An example is the 15w50, was deleted a year or so ago as Shell (or someone) decided it was a very poor choice, so back to W100+ and problems it had. Who knew, i learnt from a presentation @ Ausfly.
Its going to change again soon.
The through bolts were being replaced for free if you took the ac back to bundy, the tightening of the bearings confuses me as torque was the same afaik.

Re the fuel, talk to jabiru and reading documents Avgas is the preferred fuel mainly cos quality is stable. experience shows me what you get from Service stations is pot luck and pretty common to get bad batch.

Many of the current problems have developed with newer hydraulic lifters implemented and points to preignition to me.
Jabiru will still sell you a zero time solid lifter type now so will Camit, trouble is the LSA rules prevent it in 24 aircraft.

There are some other threads where Jabawocky and I have debated this in detail, but I maintain the Australian refined fuel has quite good "batch control".

The bigger problem issues are:
1. companies who import fuel bought on the international spot market
2. service station sites adding cheapening chemicals
3. Service station sites with old ingound tanks which let in contaminants

If you are going to use Mogas stick to 98 octane fuel from a high volume Shell, BP or Mobil site. These are the only companies who refine in Australia and therefore have a consistent supply line. All other service station brands are buying fuel from somewhere else that is unknown.

"95% owners with problems?? Is that another evidence based claim"


no that was a stab (frustration can do that to a usually nice bloke)


By stating "is that another evidence based claim" are you inferring that what I am saying isn't based on evidence or fact?


Jetjr,
I am happy that you are having a great run with your Jabiru's and the factory's support I really am that's not sarcasm.


This however is not what I have experienced, I have done nothing wrong in the operation of these aircraft, they have been by the book.
If I was an outsider looking in I would probably default to a surely they can't be that bad, after all aren't the certified to fly over populous areas?


But a good indication that there is multiple problems out there is the constant revision and changes to just about every part of operating these aircraft and engines.

Jetjr, "Many of the current problems have developed with newer hydraulic lifters implemented and points to pre ignition to me.
Jabiru will still sell you a zero time solid lifter type now so will Camit, trouble is the LSA rules prevent it in 24 aircraft"


The hydraulic lifters are a bit suspect, I have seen dings in the tops of pistons from what I can only suspect to be "pump up" or incorrect preload on the lifter.
I was told by camit and I quote " yeah the hydraulic lifter engines haven't been very good".


Having said that the roller cam engine now in my J230 seems to be going well, but its early days yet.

Amazing the amount of press this subject has created, obviously it's well known the problems of these engines. I also note a Jab 4 sale on Ebay with a little over 400 hrs assuming from new & has had all the cylinders replaced already.
If I owned a new Lyc or Conty that needed that sort of heavy maint then I'd be worried!
This thread does make for rather in depth reading with some very in depth knowledge kicking about:)

Wmk2

Jabiru bad experience?
 

Yeah, I've had a Jabiru bad experience - flew with Jaba in one! :E

Dr :8

One defence is that they are cheap and fairly easy to work on. Great for home kit builders who like to tinker with the engine in their hangar. However, in a flying school situation where L2's and LAME's are involved, costs can quickly get out of hand.

Jabiru valve $45 :ok:
Rotax 912 valve $280 :(

...............hey Tripple x tinkering with a piece of junk in yr hanger is fine, no one gets hurt but up in the air with that same piece of junk?............well tinkering is the last thing ya can do up there wishing you where down here still tinkering buddy:ok::ok:

'Forky' now that's funny, Jaba experience without having to be in one...........was it still 'safe'?:E


Wmk2

jabiru valve replaced every 200 hrs, $45x10 =$450
rotax valve replaced at TBO 2000 hrs. =$280 :E

actually when it comes to prices, i have heard a new 3300 is $19,000AUD
a new 912 ULS is $18,500 USD...

Absolutely agree there Wal, just looking for a positive side if there is one.

Ultralights, problem is that the turbo Rotax at 115hp is in the mid $30k range and the J3300 is 19k for ~128hp ... and that is why people are still buying them.

912 vs 3300 ....... your 20 hp short in a 912
912 is an exceptional engine, no debate, but whats the relevance

At least compare 914 price, 2012 it was over $30K USD
Not convinced it has the same reliability reputation as 912

Your right Motz, the 15W50 is still in there, Seminar in 2012 saw this being strongly recommended to go back to W100+ from Jabiru and others.

from what i have heard, a J230 airframe with a 100Hp 912 performs equally as well as one with the Jab 3300 fitted. though i dont have any facts on hand, could possibly be just the advantage of a different prop. who knows, but the info i have heard is from pilots who have flown a 912 equipped J230/200 so for comparison of similar performance, the 912 would be equiv of the 3300. as said before, this is based just on hangar talk.