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CASA Vs Dalby LAME shop
I hope this is not what I think it is.
Check your battery chargers everyone. :rolleyes::ugh: GB Shaw & Co Pty Ltd trading as Dalby Air Maintenance and Civil Aviation Safety Authority [2013] AATA 736 (11 October 2013) What amazes me is this has not been all over pprune already, I had it emailed to me by a friend in the USA. I would love to see the fireworks if they tried to shut down his maintenance shop :} That would change the landscape of aviation law in oz! I wonder where the P51 mustang is going to go now. Ed Field had it right, Flinders Aviation just went postal on them, so it seems that you need one or the other approach. Anyway......over to you folks. |
I am not sure what the problem might be - it certainly reads to me as if the Maintenance Shop went to Geraldton to do maintenance on an aircraft they knew was grounded by CASA, and did not submit the paperwork to CASA in an attempt to protect the owner or pilot of ZOE.
If that is the case - when he was already under a cloud - what did he think would happen? In every dealing I have had with CASA they are surprisingly tolerant of well-meaning disorganisation and the odd stuff-up. The moment they smell a cover-up, everything suddenly becomes most unpleasant. I still reckon if CASA had pulled Hempel's AOC and PPL prior to the prang there would have been people on here screaming blue murder and saying he was wronged :ugh: |
Hempel's AOC |
In every dealing I have had with CASA they are surprisingly tolerant of well-meaning disorganisation and the odd stuff-up. Dr :8 |
Have to agree with Horatio there.
If we cock something up by accident, they are more than helpful...believe it or not!! |
Over the years I've had contact with CASA twice.
My experience was that if you made a mistake, and showed it was unlikely to be repeated, they were friendly and more interested in safety than being vindictive. |
I've had two main dealings with them that could have gone either way....
First one I was "counselled" for something that was absolutely not my fault in any way, but they saw fit to read me the riot act and make me feel bad. That one is probably still on my permanent record. The second instance restored my faith in human kindness when the CASA employee went above and beyond to assist with some quite complicated paperwork that they normally wouldn't bother with and if they did, it would have cost hundreds if not a thousand. He had no reason to provide this level of service, but chose to, so cheers to him. If I had wilfully gone out of my way to deceive them... I'd hate to be on the receiving end :E |
I wonder where the P51 mustang is going to go now. |
TBM, that is good news, I just had not seen it lately, and wondered why.
As for the Casa V Dalby thing, I maintain that for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's on a company that the Casa rep has not been doing his job in the first place. Every NCR is a slight on the FOI not performing in the first place. They should be there to educate not take to court. It should never get that way. Some of the alleged problem was that they asks for things to be fixed and 3 months later nothing had been done. I know for sure that the LAME who used to work on the Mustang went to Dalby to do nothing but satisfy CASA's demans for paperwork and process. Not to touch a spanner. The logical conclussion is that he did absolutely nothing. Sat there for months and months doing nothing. I just can't believe that. If the place was a basket case,and maybe it was, how on earth did CASA let it get that way, and what things, constructive educational things did they do to avoid this problem? If they did go there to educate and straighten them out, how on earth could CASA have failed.....a second time. If that is the case then Dalby Maintenance or whatever they are called should have been shut down simultaneously with the department doing the oversight. They both clearly need to be axed then. I just can't accept that a basket case organisation can be let get that far out of line, or in the case of Transair/Hempels etc or others get to an accident without CASA doing anything to correct the process by education. If that fails it is because both groups failed. No LAME goes to work in the morning wanting to do a sloppy job. For those of you who have cited excellent co-operative and helpful folk at CASA, great, glad to hear it. I too have plenty of stories to tell of good folk doing good things. But these kind of matters are not doing the good workers any favours. I have to work with many at CASA in a few areas. Most are pretty good. I am sure they hate being let down just as much as industry does. I have to wonder what is going on. Its a cultural problem. Many of you know what happened with Flinders Aviation. If I was the minister now and saw that along with the Archerfield debacle......there would be some huge cost savings by Christmas. It is not good enough. The industry deserves better, and I am not saying that LAME's dont need a good dos of surveillance, but it has to be done the right way if you want the right outcomes. Clearly they are not doing it right. They seem to approach it with the attitude of they are just criminals we have not caught yet. |
But isn't the same CASA "gent" also responsible for the drubbing that Sandora got, which definitely contributed to their decision to close down?
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I have no idea.
But if it is the same one who copped a pasting at YRED....then I reckon he has moved to softer targets. If that is the case, CASA and Libby need to think twice about their actions, or non-actions. I am not across the matter very well, but I smell a rat. I am too busy doing pro-active things for GA at the moment to get tangled up in this, but I sure hope that if my suspicions are even 5% accurate that someone does something. If they were seriously outright dodgey and dangerous, fair enough close them down. but at the same time sack....yes SACK without any entitlements ALL the folk responsible for them being that way retrospectively as far back as you can trace. The problem is not just with the workshop. CASA need to wake up and realise this is the fact of life they run and hide from. Bad workshops or operators are more their fault than anyone else's. Just the same as badly behaved children are a product of their poor parenting. Without exception. D9.....ask a LAME/ engine guy we both know about this topic ;) I bet he knows far more than I do about the situation. |
jaba TBM, that is good news, I just had not seen it lately, and wondered why. As for the Casa V Dalby thing, I maintain that for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's on a company that the Casa rep has not been doing his job in the first place. Every NCR is a slight on the FOI not performing in the first place. They should be there to educate not take to court. It should never get that way. Some of the alleged problem was that they asks for things to be fixed and 3 months later nothing had been done. I know for sure that the LAME who used to work on the Mustang went to Dalby to do nothing but satisfy CASA's demans for paperwork and process. Not to touch a spanner. The logical conclussion is that he did absolutely nothing. Sat there for months and months doing nothing. I just can't believe that. If the place was a basket case,and maybe it was, how on earth did CASA let it get that way, and what things, constructive educational things did they do to avoid this problem? If they did go there to educate and straighten them out, how on earth could CASA have failed.....a second time. If that is the case then Dalby Maintenance or whatever they are called should have been shut down simultaneously with the department doing the oversight. They both clearly need to be axed then. I just can't accept that a basket case organisation can be let get that far out of line, or in the case of Transair/Hempels etc or others get to an accident without CASA doing anything to correct the process by education. If that fails it is because both groups failed. No LAME goes to work in the morning wanting to do a sloppy job. For those of you who have cited excellent co-operative and helpful folk at CASA, great, glad to hear it. I too have plenty of stories to tell of good folk doing good things. But these kind of matters are not doing the good workers any favours. I have to work with many at CASA in a few areas. Most are pretty good. I am sure they hate being let down just as much as industry does. I have to wonder what is going on. Its a cultural problem. Many of you know what happened with Flinders Aviation. If I was the minister now and saw that along with the Archerfield debacle......there would be some huge cost savings by Christmas. It is not good enough. The industry deserves better, and I am not saying that LAME's dont need a good dos of surveillance, but it has to be done the right way if you want the right outcomes. Clearly they are not doing it right. They seem to approach it with the attitude of they are just criminals we have not caught yet. Senate report will shape safety investigation future | Pro Aviation |
I agree, remember there are 26 recommendations from the senate inquiry. Senator Xenophon wasn't kind in his supplemental section. |
Meanwhile in the UK:
UK government to slash red tape for GA sector |
I maintain that for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's on a company that the Casa rep has not been doing his job in the first place. Every NCR is a slight on the FOI not performing in the first place. For years we have been crying out for less prescriptive regulations, yet you seem here to expect the AWI to micro-manage every shop in his jurisdiction. You write a procedures manual describing your procedures and systems which CASA approves (...or doesn't). If you do not manage things in the way your manual describes it, CASA will pay attention. If you deliberately deviate from your published procedures, and a breach is detected as a result... what do you expect? Bloke I know who has about $8bn under management said in an interview "I always want to do the right thing, not just do what I can get away with". In that statement he has encapsulated all that is wrong with GA (and all that could be improved). :D |
for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's |
The team is CMT4. This is the team responsible for the trouble at Redcliffe, Caboolture, Bunderberg, Longreach, Dalby, Southport and Archerfield. I know the audit conducted on Dalby before CMT4 in 2011 was carried out by two of the most senior AWI's from BNE in 2009 and only received 3 RCA's and 4 AO's. No NCN's. So in two years they supposedly went from this to being so non compliant they had to be rubbed out. That just does not add up especially considering they had the full support of the old casa QLD airworthiness manager, well respected aeronautical engineers and AMROBA. I know the boy's at Dalby and their new chief engineer from Caboolture if anybody would like specifics. They maintained my aircraft for as long as they have been there and it has been a great service. Aviation safety has been dealt a massive blow by the loss of these engineers who will in all likelihood join the gas and oil industries. I hope the new inquiry into CASA by Truss will knock this over zealous behaviour on the head.
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If you actually read the AAT decision it was pretty clear. Hack reached the same decision twice, just found it easier and quicker and in the best interests of safety to write about the breach of stay conditions rather than spend months writing out all the rest. Hack didn't hold back in his description of what went on or of his opinion on the main perp, but of course that supposed saint couldn't be responsible for his own actions could he, must be CASA forcing him to break the law, again.
And by the way DAM182 ( dalby air maintenance perhaps?), there is no difference between an RCA and an NCN, just a different name. |
CHIMBU.....you are correct....too tired and not thinking about the correct acronym.
You are correct on the second point too.:ooh: Leafie.......I want education, not criminalisation. Not sure how better to simplify it.:ok: |
Jaba, I am sure everyone in this industry would prefer education over anything else, including criminalization. Unfortunately, this industry is no different to any other, there are those who think they can break the rules and in doing so demean the rest of the industry. They will always cry foul when caught and will always seek support from those who don't really understand the regulations being broken (their customers usually). They will also demand answers in public from those who by law cannot respond, knowing it will help them in the public arena.
Those people will not accept education and will do anything in their power to discredit anyone who suggests they are at fault. It is not unusual that they have prior criminal convictions but will seek to hide or diminish them. |
education?
Mate show me, on the facts presented in the decision, where the "victim" required educating.
He got smashed for trying to pull off a cover up when he already had his nuts in the CASA vice. He was 100% clear that what he was doing was wrong, which is why he tried to cover it up! :urgh: |
Dalby
I don't think anybody is suggesting the boy's were perfect or casa is to blame for there mistakes. The point is that the GA industry needs to protect it's resources especially engineers and maintenance organisations. Access to maintenance in regional areas is becoming scarce. Four different LAME's that were all trained under different chief engineers surely could have been schooled to become compliant. This also would of been a more cost effective use of CASA's resources rather than spending what must of been hundreds of thousands of dollars to get rid of them. Any one of the 4 LAME's could of become the chief to work with CASA. Dalby only worked on private and AG aircraft to the best of my knowledge and isn't it CASA's mandate to the fare paying public. That is to say CASA should employ the most cost effective solution if possible. You can't survive as long as they have in the industry if you are just no good. I have not heard the boy's discredit or blame CASA. They just wanted answers as to who's interpretation of the rules was correct as they would appear to have changed from how all 4 of them were trained.
DAM is Dalby Air Maintenance and 182 is my aircraft they have maintained since Dave was chief. |
Jaba, I am sure everyone in this industry would prefer education over anything else, including criminalization. Unfortunately, this industry is no different to any other, there are those who think they can break the rules and in doing so demean the rest of the industry. They will always cry foul when caught and will always seek support from those who don't really understand the regulations being broken (their customers usually). They will also demand answers in public from those who by law cannot respond, knowing it will help them in the public arena. Those people will not accept education and will do anything in their power to discredit anyone who suggests they are at fault. It is not unusual that they have prior criminal convictions but will seek to hide or diminish them. I never said DAM were bleating or anything. I started this thread as I smell a rat. I could be wrong, they may be as shonky as they come. I have NO CONNECTION what soever but I do know as a result they employed people, unproductive people in the attempt at ticking boxes better to keep said AWI's happy. Show me a maintenance shop that has not bee bending the rules and I will show you Santa Clause doing the tooth Fairy with the Easter bunny.....never mind. Why did Sandora close............THAT I know a bit about (smart move), why did Flinders Aviation have what was the best punch up in a long time? Why will CASA do all but formally apologise? I wish they would. I really do. :E If you knew the truth on these matters (and many here on pprune do) you would not be so quick to criticise my albeit assumption, that this is another sledge hammer on a thumb tack. This is miles apart from a Hempel case. I could be wrong, but I hear noises like a duck.....looks a bit like a duck.....seen a YRED & YCAB duck before........is the YDAY duck a duck? If the AWI's over the last year or three were doing their job, could this have realistically happened knowing a few simple facts? Mate show me, on the facts presented in the decision, where the "victim" required educating. |
Statistics and lies...yeah i know, but interesting observation.
Look at the link below, but before you click on it, think about the pilot/lame population Vs. other groups of folk, and look at the significant representation on the list? Anything odd? :hmm: |
That is to say CASA should employ the most cost effective solution if possible. You can't survive as long as they have in the industry if you are just no good. |
Jaba, Flinders Aviation at Redcliffe? What happened?
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Not sure of late :hmm:
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So, the charge against DAM is the principal performed maintenance at a location other than registered place and failed/refused to fill in the paperwork. There is no argument as to the standard of work performed? Correct?
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OZ,
That's about it. A number of friends and acquaintances have had their aircraft looked after by Dalby Aircraft Maintenance over the years, and they have always been very happy with the result. Time and again, we see organizations that have had years of audits with nothing but minor problems, but something happens ( remember Polar and and argument that a CASA FOI was demanding something on twin training other than according to the CAAP, or Barrier) and an "aggressive" audit finds "hundreds" of things wrong. As the principal of Polar Air has apparently said: "It took me $1.0M to find out CASA can do anything they like". Of the many problems of Brindabella, I am told that rather extreme interpretations of the manufacturer's maintenance manual by CASA re. the Jetstreams was a factor in aircraft groundings. Cast your minds back to the series of aircraft grounded at YSBK, (big stickers and all) over disputes about the size and shape of registrations letters, or the aircraft that had C.of As. cancelled because the owners had taken the battery home to keep them on charge - and the AWI involved "determined" that these aircraft were, consequently, not airworthy, and the "work performed" was illegal maintenance, as it did not conform tp Schedule 8, or was not performed by a LAME under a CAR 30 approval. Think of the AWI who refused to renew a number of LAME licenses, because the applicants did not have "6 months experience in the industry in the preceding 2 years" --- because said AWI "determined" that working on Experimental aircraft, including prototype development, or Experimental Amateur Built aircraft, were not "aircraft" for the purposes of the "regulations". I have some experience on UK, US and NZ, over many years, and have friends who have run GA businesses in those countries and Canada over many years, there are always complaints about the local regulators, but never in the same terms and with the same vehement tone as is common, even normal, in Australia. In none of those countries do I regularly hear of the kinds of aggressive audits that are increasingly common in Australia, or hear of feelings that the "regulator" is at war with the aviation community, that the only "safe skies are empty skies". Tootle pip!! |
When the AAT uses the term "Egregious"....I was expecting a grievous act of malpractice on the repair and/or maintenance on the part of the principle...but a piece of paper not handed in in a timely manner???? Timely? An hour, a day, a week, 28days?. Bizarre!
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Bottom line. If CASA did their job right, none of this BS would happen.
End of argument. |
no jaba it is far more than that.
when you read the canadian regs it is apparent that while Transport Canada might disagree with people they actually do respect them. I've never seen anything in Australian regs that suggests that the core of CASA respect anyone. aviation in australia should be an industry of independent businesses doing the right thing because that is profitable. what we have is an industry forced into a pyramid with casa at the top. all hinges on whether casa give approval for an activity. why dont we have a system where a standard is set and people work independently to the standard without needing to be in the pocket of a casa. auto mechanics dont work with the sort of regulatory crap that an aviation mechanic does. truck mechanics don't. the entire casa system is an outgrowth of a 1920's approach to quality assurance. the entire legislative logic is well past its use by date. |
My comment from a different thread.
But, and there is always a 'but'. All is futile when you have a country where successive governments have run, hidden, manipulated, obsfucated and sodomised the truth. The cover up of regulatory incompetence, mismanagement of aviation, malfeasance and buggerisation of aviation has snowballed to a point where the way things currently are is normal (yes I know its a subjective word open to interpretation) It simply cannot be changed, fixed, rebuilt, polished, whatever you want to call it, without massive political fortitude, conviction and hard fought work. And that my friends will never ever occur under the current Australian system. Nupty's like Albo and Truss won't even slap CAsA with a limp piece of Creamy's stale lettuce let alone grab a spiny pineapple and shove it up CAsA's kyber sideways. It is going to take a Sunfish smoking hole or some kind of sudden robust power is bestowed upon the Independents, like a miracle from heaven, for them to make any headway. Both the FAA and TC have made positive steps forward in their safety and regulatory oversight only due to the perseverance, balls, power and intellect of certain politicians. Unfortunately we have just a fistful of aligned Senators taking up the mantle, and it just won't work. Sorry to piss on your parade boys but Truss and his 'Lettucesexuals' will achieve exactly what they have set out to achieve - SFA. |
Glen shaw-dalby air maintenance history
The problems CASA have with SHAW are huge and ongoing.
SHAW has a history which predicts his future. Be warned and informed. damplanefacts.com |
Interesting post Safety Matters
I notice your web site is hosted in the British Virgin Islands. Is that so you can avoid a libel suite. Just a word of advice, in the State of SA your publishing of this material is covered under their libel laws. It isn't just the person you can libel, but companies can also be libelled and seek court redress. I should know, I fought an action where I was like you the publisher. it cost me $500,000 right up to the high court. I also suspect a hidden agenda in your actions here. Are you by any chance a CASA person???? |
Talking about the Enemy
My thought as well DHP - casa dude eh??
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What exactly is libellous about the webpage?
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The potential libel is the photograph.
It depicts a man drinking from a bottle. A reasonable person could think he is drinking beer. But any one who drinks Ginger Beer will know it is also bottled in the same container as imported beers |
How bizarre ..... I just read the judgements (public record) and never gave a thought to the contents of the bottle :ugh:
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yes, the bottle is possibly defamatory, the other content isn't.
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