Tiger Snakes, Tassie Tigers, no doubt its tiger country in my books!

'Joe' I guess compared to other countries we have a fairly flat landscape with good wx most of the time BUT.....yes there's always a but. You can drown in an inch of water you don't need to be in 30 meters of water to die!
An obstacle is an obstacle you can be killed by the only 3 mtr tree for a hundred miles out in a desert landscape if yr unlucky enough to hit it!

It looks like Des & his hapless pax got caught out & sadly died from the results of hitting trees in less than favorable wx conditions & he wasn't in the Himalayas when it happened & he wasn't even in PNG he was in Australia where our tress obscured by low cloud are just as bloody unforgiving as the rest the worlds trees!


Wmk2

Yes, and that inch of water shouldn't be referred to as a tsunami.

Point made.

CumulusGranitis is just as impenetrable here as it is in other places. Furthermore, given the prevalence of tigers in the Australian bush, it's an appropriate name.

("The member for spinning wheels has been overruled....I think the Ayes have it...."):oh:

Who's point?

Is that a retort and concession or a retort and self congratulation?:confused:

Please please can everyone not turn this thread into a personal squabbling match, take it to its own thread or do it by PM.
Let's keep this thread focused to what happened & why & lessons that can be taught & learnt.
All the mindless nitpicking & personal attacks are showing complete disrespect to Des & the other 5 souls onboard that lost their lives in this tragic accident

Amen to that!

Hey rotorblades

Someone we have not thought to much about is your colleague.

How is he doing? I feel I know the few folk on that frequency like mates now, as many of us do no doubt.

I can only assume he has been hit hard and is getting some counselling or whatever is required.

You guys do a superb job under tough conditions at time. :D

Its about time we went flying again, get your hand in and perhaps another IFR flight so you see the other side again. I hope its been helpful in the past.

Please pass on my best wishes to the ATC plugged in on Monday arc.

Hey Jaba
I haven't seen him this week, but as I understand it it has been a bit shocking to him & To everyone at BN centre, me included . I didn't know Des that well but I knew of him & seen the dragon a few times & being local to CAB myself it's never good when one doesn't return.

ATC can be as stressful as being in the cockpit in a situation, we have the information but can do very little practical with affecting the outcome apart from providing verbal aid & alerting SAR.
I've had a few a/c get caught by IMC on frequency, all times thankfully had a successful outcome - managed to guide two to Williamtown & one force landed on a beach (poor sod was on his first solo x-country as well),
I do know that this dragon incident in particular has highlighted to several, how shall I put it - less VFR tolerant controllers of the importance of all flights in the area.

It would be good to meet up soon & get a refresher on your side of things, they've been very helpful in the past. I find both pilots & ATC can get very insular & not understand what both sides are trying to achieve (which invariably is the same thing in the end get aircraft from A to B ) & that's why I like meeting up with pilots, to make me & the ones I speak to at work better at what I/we do.

As for getting my hand in its been a while since I've been behind the yoke, & even then it was Aerobats
& Cherokees. Haven't been IFR in light ac for v long time, the last time ended in a belly landing on a ridge in the alps.

I'll certainly pass in your best wishes to the controller at BN.

And if any pilot wants a visit to BN Ctr just drop me a PM, we are always happy to have visitors

Rb

Thanks for that.:ok:

Forgot about YHBA and the meatbomber VFR in IMC <2 miles out your window:eek:?

C U Soon I hope.

When descending through holes in cloud layers, the highest terrain usually appears to remain in cloud.

So it's pretty scary to then realise that one is flying within a blind valley.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Fortunately, I'm still alive!:=

Oh yeah forgot bout that!

The alps thing was a right buggers muddle & might serve some people here.
Heading downwards towards a swiss airport IFR (visual in VMC conditions) through the mountains, ATC ask if we would mind moving over to the north to let jet traffic through, we agree as long as we can have vectors due to approaching cloud cover & likeliness to lose VMC if sent north. So we get a vector & we clarify the level & grid lowest safe vs the route safe we were planning to use if VMC became unliely. Atc said level was okay. we then get vectored all over the joint rights the lefts left again then rights, (didn't have GPS). We now thoroughly confused as to where they're sending us and where we goingbut thinking its okay ATC have us.
Shortly followed by ATC saying traffic believed past you, lost radar contact with you resume own navigation. Oh **** moment hits as we now request to climb as we in cloud &
trying to determine where they've put us in high ground. We ask them what our last known position was & told they'd lost radar on us about 10 mins prior, but hadn't told us.
Anyway about the same time we burst through the layer of clouds in the climb skimmed the top of some fir trees & bellied in on a ridge line heading uphill, much to the shock of us & the goaty things enjoying their lunch before being rudely interrupted by a pa28 tilling the field.
Obviously ATC has got a lot better since then, but the pilot vowed never to give up situation awareness control completely to ATC again ;)

By Jingos thats inredible! About as close as one can get aye. :eek:

Rotorblades, that experience will ensure you never do that sort of thing to anyone and when you become a trainer of abinitios (if you aren’t already, what with the mess that woman left behind her) it will sink into their minds indelibly right from the start.
Walking away from near death experiences is a wonderful training aid.

Psycho, ever seen Lerderderg Gorge?

Just a thought.
 

The notion of Immortality is a thing pilots need to loose, at an early age. When we were young things like mountain climbing, sailing, horses and motor bikes so often scared the crap out of us, that we were only ever really sure of one thing. You can get really hurt doing this. Thinking back, I went to a few funerals before getting anywhere near an aircraft. During the 'apprenticeship' period there were a couple more sad events to attend.

Sadly, there is no acceptable method of simulating shaking the skeletal, filthy hand of death. But until you have been there; or, accepted the fact that immortality is not granted at the tit, bold pilots will never become old pilots.


Selah.

A terrifying flight it must have been.

It has come to light that one of the passengers called their workplace to speak to someone with flying experience that might be able to help them out. They must have been fully aware of what was happening. There would have been nothing worse.

God give me the grace...
 

I too read that one of the females onboard rang someone at Virgin Australia where she worked hoping maybe to be patched through to someone who could help. A truly awful realisation it must have been to know that all was seriously not well. My heart goes out to the families and friends (and the person that took that call if indeed that's what happened).

For me, after a tragedy like this, a prayer is "God give me the grace, wisdom and Truth to never find myself in such a situation & put my family or friends through such a thing".

We all have to be so vigilant not to fall into that false sense of security that can so easily come through pride, ego or any number of attributes of the human condition (not that I'm suggesting Des had succumbed to this). And like Kharon said, there's no way of simulating this stuff and the experience of losing someone close to you through a tragedy like this. The nature of life is that we just don't understand these types of things until we're directly involved (which is why as we speak there are bound to be dozens of street races going on in all different parts of the country involving teenage boys in hotted up cars who think they're **** hot drivers but in reality they probably have about 5% of the understanding of physics & what can go wrong with breaks & what a tyre blow out at speed can do & how innocent bystanders could unwittingly stray into their pathway, etc). Such is the nature of experience.

Thanks for your interactions Jaba & Rotorblades. They're hugely helpful. That story of yours Rotor is a further reminder of how easily a fowlup can happen. That you're here to tell us about it is a miracle in & of itself.

I really appreciate all that ATC does too. A friend I've been flying with for a long time has a son who's just been accepted in Airsevices Australia & is now in Melbourne commencing his ATC training. He has GFPT too & is very committed. I'm looking forward to seeing him become a great asset to aviation.

Ren

As we flew the Arbey Star to runway 34 in Melbourne on Thursday I commented on the amazing green countryside. I seems that even after countless times following the magenta line to Laverton I can still find something on the ground that I can't recall seeing before. As we swung into the home straight and met the bumps from the 30 knot northerly I commented that if I ever get bored from watching the ground go by from the window of an aeroplane I will know that it is time to retire. It was not until we got back to Brisbane a few hours later that I learned that one of my work colleagues was on the flight that is the subject of this thread.

I didn't know Jan well even though I saw her regularly. She was often the cheerful person who met us at the boarding gate with our flight plan in hand as we arrived with our morning coffee. We would exchange pleasantries and as we were of similar vintage I found it easy to chat with her. But time was allways limited by OTP considerations. And then hers would be the happy smile and cheery wave that sent us on our way as we pushed back from the aerobridge.

Many have shared their experiences on this forum. We all have memories of incidents which, even after many years, can spring to mind with a terrifying clarity that can still make us shiver. Mostly we will have memories of a few such incidents because as humans we are not very good at learning from our mistakes. We wonder how we survived when others did not. Perhaps we followed a bad decision by making a good decision and extricating ourselves from a crisis of our own making. Perhaps it was just blind luck. My mother, a woman of prayer, would say that God was looking after us. Generally our families will never know how close they came to experiencing the gut wrenching grief that the families of these three couples are feeling. Our thoughts are with them.

I did not know Des at all. Yet those who did know him have indicated that this was not a pilot who was a risk taker or who lacked experience flying in the VFR environment to which he was accustomed. Perhaps he simply succumbed to a human frailty which afflicts all of us from time to time. He made a mistake.

I will think of Jan when someone else waves me a cheery goodbye as we push off the bay. And even though I did not know her well, I will miss her.

May they rest in peace.

Thanks Ren
It only takes one bad decision in either of our worlds (ATC & pilot) to make things go wrong quickly & sometimes luck Isnt with us. And it doesn't matter whether one has little or a lot of experience, it happens to all of us at some time.
With mine it was just luck we were at roughly the same angle as the slope (so we didn't hit nose first) & the pilot didn't have time to try an evasive turn or we would've hit wingtip first & cartwheeled.

I've always said if my mistakes highlight it & stop it happening to just one other person, it's worth it.

I think someone else posted this comment but it is true:
"here by the grace of god go I"

I heard that the poor girl was on her first day at work when she received that shocking phone call. If she needed help after, I'm sure they would offer it to her, they are a great employer like that.

A picorial tribute to Des
 

This is a small collection of photographs which will hopefully convey what a popular and integral part Des was of the SE Qld vintage scene. I apologise for the variable quality.

“Barnstormers over Brisbane’, the Tiger Moth’s 75th/ Chipmunk’s 60th birthday flypast, August 2006:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...nlphoto-12.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...raphybob-8.jpg

Ah, (maroon) de Havillands! Caboolture Air Show, May 2004:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...DH-FORM-12.jpg

The Bridal Party (with escorts) on their way to the Bolsover Wedding at Archerfield, November 2006:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...g/DSC01364.jpg

At the Antique Aircraft Association Fly-in, Narrandera April 2006:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...g/dragon-3.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...g/dragon-2.jpg

Remind you of a mother duck & her ducklings? Caboolture, 2010.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...A-4F50-975.jpg

We will miss him!

Great pictures: Curious now – "RIAMA" could someone please explain the significance.

Another, more modern expression – "there's them as done it; and, them as is gunna".

Always a favourite to photo, even to those of us who didn't know the pilot/owner personaly.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...eral/Riama.jpg

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...ral/Riama2.jpg

Watts Bridge Fly-In a couple of years ago.

That was a great post Vis 10k Plus; it's always good to hear about people that have passed in an accident like this so they're not just a statistic. You brought some detail to the story that makes it all the more apparent what special responsibilities we're entrusted with as pilots

I just heard an interview with Des from a few years ago when he had the Dragon down here at Bankstown on Macca's Australia all Over radio program on the ABC. He talked about how the aircraft type had a history of accidents because it was such a workhorse often flown close to weight limits and on the edge of its performance capabilities. He was explaining how he'd had more powerful engines and better props fitted and how it now took less pax to stay well within limits. Finished with him talking about the importance of ensuring it was safe for his longevity too.

It was sad to hear him speaking so passionately but I was glad to have heard it too. I'll email Macca at the ABC to see if they can put that interview up as a podcast link so everyone here can hear it.

Thanks for the great photos frigatebird and Dora.

Ren

You'll find an answer here, Kharon. 2012 De Havilland Dragon crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very Nice pics to remember 'The Man and His Machine'...et al....

Thankyou.

The stories of inadvertent VFR to VMC are interesting, I think most private pilots have had some sort of encounter. Most of these incidents developed quickly. I think an important aspect of this accident was that the pilot consciously chose to take his chances in IMC. Reports are that the aircraft circled for about 30 mins, then climbed into the cloud base. Whilst there is fuel remaining, continued holding gives a few advantages, eg the wx may improve sufficiently, assistance may arrive, additional advice could be forthcoming. By deciding to climb into cloud, the pilot is gambling that he might make it, but the stakes are huge. A forced landing into wind in this aircraft would have the GS back to probably 40 knots, giving a good chance of survival. We should always remember the huge responsibility we take on when we strap someone into our aircraft, and it's good to keep in the back of our minds, when it turns nasty, the insurance company takes over the ownership.

Kharon

RIAMA derives from the name of a friend of Ron Adair who founded Aircrafts Pty Ltd. His friend's name was Allan Mair. Mair spelled backwards is RIAM plus his initial A and you get RIAMA.

RIP Des and his friends

RIAMA was probably also chosen because it ties in with all those Holyman and ANA aircraft with names such as KYEEMA and PENGANA and BUNGANA. There were about thirty such names given to the fleet over the years.

Aircrafts Pty Ltd, founded by RJS Adair in 1928, commenced a Brisbane - Toowoomba service the following year, then extended it's services through southern Queensland and northern NSW, till in 1949 the company morphed into Queensland Airlines Pty Ltd. Fleet lists show that Aircrafts Pty Ltd had two DH84s that had been named in like fashion, RIADA and RIAMA. The name reversals are obvious in both cases.

ps Just love the picture on the beach Trent, and the two gels dressed so summery.





[QUOTE]

Quote:

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The stories of inadvertent VFR to VMC are interesting. I think most private pilots have had some sort of encounter.

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[/QUOTE]

Quote:

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I think an important aspect of this accident was that the pilot consciously chose to take his chances in IMC.

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Oh . . . so what enables you to reconstruct the flight with insight into what conscious thoughts occupied the pilot's mind between take-off and crash site?

And what have I and many others been doing wrong all these years, failing to grasp what makes "inadvertent VFR to VMC" so hazardous?

F B F will also be aware that Ron Adair gave his own name to another.
http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w...otos/riada.jpg

Does anyone know where the rest of these aircraft are in the world, there is talk of 3 remaining?

I know where there is one of them in Melbourne but that's it.

One in NZ (ZK-AXI):

Wings Over New Zealand - Dragon flight to the Mosquito Show

and one in the UK (G-ECAN):

Dragon

Any others?

I vaguely recall a Rapid in the back of an old hanger at MB many years ago owned I think by Maurice Rolfe whom was restoring it, gee I hope it was a rapid,am old but I don't wanna say too old just yet:E. I used to work with Maurice back in the 70's but something comes to mind about a Rapid.

There's a whole other debate on inadvertent IMC flight by VFR drivers so perhaps this thread isn't the place right now for such a discussion as am sure there are many still dumbfounded by this sad event IMC or no IMC.


Wmk2

Psssst, Wally!

"Rapide"!

You forgot the "e"!

Dr :8

Quote:
gee I hope it was a rapid,am old but I don't wanna say too old just yet.
Psssst, Wally!

"Rapide"!

You forgot the "e"!


He didn't forget the E, he put it in hanger. (hangAr)

And the "e" is needed, they certainly were not rapid.

Yep, that's the one. Looked like it wasn't far off flying the last time I saw her a few years back - probably just a matter of priorities.