They too had lived long and fruitful lives, my condolences to their families and friends RIP

What a very sad outcome. I didn't know Des but I've seen his plane before. He'd clearly touched a lot of people with his goodness and to all those people that are feeling so low right now, I guess we'd all do well to remember him for all that he was and be thankful to have had someone so passionate about aviation in our experience. The Des Porter's of this world bring colour and life to many, many people. Think of all those kids that that would have marvelled at that beautiful red Dragon. And all those older people whose hearts would have been warmed by the appearance of something so special from a bygone era. That he took an aircraft that had been associated with such family tragedy and turned it into a wonderful sight we've all been able to enjoy all these years is a testament to his determination to remember his father and his brother who perished in the crash in 1954.

I'm sure he, his wife and his best friends that have perished will be sorely missed.

Good work to the hundreds of people involved in the search. It was always going to be unlikely they'd be found alive and well; but at least they were found and this hasn't gone on for years like the NZ incident mentioned above or the Cessna VH-MDX that disappeared near the Barrington Tops in 1981 and has never been found.

I think what Slackie writes below is very true and I've had experience with his number 2 scenario as well. I personally think we all (us, CASA, AOPA, the industry) need to do so much more work on helping pilots strategise around making plans that involve taking passengers on cross-country trips over high ground VFR. I believe there's just so much more skill required on the whole about setting up fall-back options and briefing your passengers in advance that you may need to cancel a flight altogether and get them back days late (or that they may have to make their own way home on occasions). I can imagine some of the ways this trip up to Monto would have played out and some of the pressures Des would have been under, which on a beautiful day, wouldn't have been an issue, but on this day potentially added to this accident.

My deepest condolences to all the families impacted and people in the aviation community that knew Des and his wife well.

Ren

Indeed, telco technician jet'd in yesterday afternoon. Nothing to do with the Dornier.

I only mention this for the inexperienced (or foolhardy) please dont flame me...add your tips if you wish

In your toolbox, if (heaven forbid) you ever get yourself in this position (in cloud, in a VFR aircraft, scared and disoriented) where your immediate future looks like a loss of control and a high speed spiral into the ground;

1. Select throttles to idle.
2. Slowly trim full nose up.
3. Let go of the yolk.
4. Keep a constant heading with your feet - the rudder.

And pray the you get visual before you hit the trees. Practice it at height in your light aircraft in VMC.

I see a compass in his cockpit another solution would have been to DR east to the ocean and let down slowly and carefully.

Only works if you have altitude to start with (which might have been lacking if he was trapped in a valley).

That appears to have been precisely his problem, and it looks like I was pretty close to spot-on with my projected scenario, that I posted in post #56, about 4 hrs before the wreckage was spotted.
All the indications are that the impact point is in terrain sloping at around 35°-40°, and that the Dragon was doing a high RoC at substantial speed. The terrain is so steep, the SAR choppers couldn't land at the actual crash site.

http://i47.tinypic.com/24y1r2b.jpg

(pic courtesy of Jack Tran/The Australian)

Very sad outcome. Condolences to the relatives of all aboard.
Thanks to the searchers and technicians for their sterling efforts.
Thanks Slackie for the photo of the panel, had more instruments there than I had recalled (looked like a mounting for a GPS too), but the layout wouldn't have helped much while looking back and forth trying to get visual again.

Truly amazing detective work from that one photo. :rolleyes:

Come on guys, give it a rest!

Dear God!!! Somewhere, children / friends / mates are still reeling from the news that there are going to be 6 empty seats at Xmas this year.

I see no need for a media outlet (or Pruner) to post a photo of the accident site while the occupents are still present.

One day, it could be your (or my) family......

Oh, and to those people speculating already about the cause? I realise you may have squillions of hours on this aircraft type / weather / location - a bit of respect, please. Would it kill you to keep your comments to yourself for a couple of weeks at least??

Another one of our community now flies with blue skies & tail winds....forever

Posting a photo from the Australian newspaper is not in bad taste and I'm sure many would disagree with you on that one. Millions have already seen it or will see it tomorrow.

outnabout,

Some of their friends, me included, are in disbelief about how he found himself in that situation.

The accident happened right off my right wingtip, at about 30 miles to my west. I know what it was like at the time. It was awful on the ranges.I was in VMC.

If others, youngsters mainly can learn from this, all the better. We all have a fair idea what went wrong. The 178 seconds training video is proved once again.

As a friend of theirs, I find it almost impossible to believe they got sucked in. Makes me feel what hope do I have in this world when 3 of my mates this year from YCAB alone have died, and not one was a cowboy who you expected to crash an aeroplane. They were all conservative professionals in aviation.

When is a suitable time? 2 minutes, 2 hours? 2 days? 2 weeks? 2 months? 2 years? never? We need to talk some time.

The sad thing is none of these accidents are new. They are old, and repeated many times.




As Dora-9 said above,
Mates, John included.
"DITTO"

To add to Dora's post above, I feel like including this as a tribute to Des, Kath, John and Carol, (not sure if Les and Janice were there), but given you guys were just over my shoulder, and like so many events, you made it all possible and gave so much to so many, this song is for you. RIP my friends.

First of all condolences to all friends and family of the pilot and pax. I couldn't begin to fully understand how hard this time must be.. But ..

A cornerstone of this site is the rumor mill and speculation. The fact that just one of us may survive out next marginal flight because of the speculation is the key, and in my opinion is one of the few truly useful aspects of the site..

If it were one of my friends or family and it may well be one day, I would stay right away from here until some time had passed.

I stand corrected, Jaba. Please accept my apologies.

I fail to see what publishing a photo of the crash site teaches us (ok, me) without a supporting set of facts to highlight the circumstances that caused this.

Once upon a time, I wouldve said wait for the ATSB report but since Norfolk Island & Capt Cleo, I have sincere doubts of how factual these are.

Bad karma...
 

Dora 9. Beautiful air to air portrait of the pilot and his magnificent machine....alas.
Tragic that we will not see them again.

Posting of the crash site picture.. freely seen on TV.. should be a sober lesson for all us VFR folk to note carefully and digest. Would I do that? Could I do that?
As some circumstances prevail, who's to say what one might do under pressure, that may lead to a fatal outcome. How often have we read about it in the crash comics. There but for the grace of...etc.

One thing is for sure, when the wx craps out, better to be down here having a cold beer, than up there having a cold sweat.

RIP all.

At my airport bar there is a photo-frame with words to the effect of:

The least experienced press on, whereas the more experienced turn back to join the most experienced whom never left the ground in the first place.

- Author unknown

I fully agree. Looking at the instrument panel layout, the Dragon did have an AH as well as other flight instruments including a large Turn and Slip Indicator. . Enough to keep you alive in cloud or poor visibility if you were in current practice. The two hours (or is it five?) needed on simulated IMC for the PPL is not enough to last you many years. PPL pilots need to understand they must keep themselves current on basic instrument flying skills either with an instructor in a real aircraft or in a synthetic trainer.

The ghost of his father
 

It's odd that he should want to build from parts of an aircraft that killed some of his family all those years ago. Maybe the aircraft meant much more to him because of that.



BBC News - Six dead in Australia vintage biplane crash

Having heard all the radio calls as it happened and Des' description as he was going, some of the speculation so far on here is so far off the mark, it reads more like the media.

morno

Great quote. It should be printed on the cover of every ppl and cpl licence issued.
Dead right. It's no where near enough to be able to cope with inadvertant flight into IMC a few years later. I don´t think increasing it is the answer though. Better decision making could be achieved by increasing awareness of how relentlessly repetitive these crashes are. A bi annual written exam on the circumstances of accidents like this would help and most ppls would actually enjoy studying for it. Make it compulsory but free of charge.

The ghost of his father
 

I think it may have been the first aircraft that his father crashed that was rebuilt.

The second aircraft that his father crashed which ultimately took his father and brother was not rebuilt.

Aviation is a very fickle and unforgiving companion!

It is always a sad, raw day when we loose one of the tribe; particularly when it's one of the rare breed who inspired; lived, breathed and loved flight, in all it's forms.

There are a couple of issues which we may discuss arising from the incident without offending and make good use of the Pprune voice.

1) Crash comic – the CC used to lay about in aero clubs, old articles rehashed, discussed and learned from. I can't put a number on it, but at least once a year there would be a reminder "I learned about flying from that" which discussed the perils of high performance weather v low performance aircraft, VFR into IMC, scud running, instrument flying for the out of practice etc. etc. They may not have prevented this accident, but they may have influenced someone else. Perhaps we need that kind of education to be resurrected.

2) Once again, it took for ever to locate the site. Perhaps we need to focus on ways and means to speed up the process. Mention fixed ELT in some bars and you'll loose a limb, mention portable ELT and a punch up is likely: Spider tracks and other proprietary systems seem to work well. Now I don't begrudge the cost of a SAR operation, at all. Just wish we could agree and sort out some system which could 'quickly' locate a missing aircraft, reduce the cost and risk to SAR operations; without years of debate and 47 pages of legislation.

It's bad enough that we loose folks: the waiting for resolution must qualify as at least one of the hells on earth. Sincere condolences to the family and friends.

The transcript may be the most valuable learning tool to come out of this, particularly if it shed any light on whether the weather closed in behind him.

Nothing was heard after he was asked to change frequency, with radio's down low and having to take his eyes off the instruments that might have been too much to ask. Sounds like he was in serious trouble anyway with another unwanted task too much.

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/CM-04OCT12.jpg

The Courier-Mail, Brisbane, 4 October 2012

Kharon: along with the crash comics, airports often had experienced VFR pilots lying around on coffee tables too. The types that did 900 hours a year VFR and most of that on charter. They knew all the routes and valleys to take in all different types of bad weather and those not to take for 500 miles around. Times have changed.

There are IPad and Iphone apps that track the position of other phones which are granted access. It's a cheap and effective (possibly) way for family members or operators to help out SAR in an emergency without impacting the Big Brother concerns that some people retain with AsA.

This is so sad
 

The following is the sort of stuff that underlines my point about the "armchair quarterbacks" that give truth about it being better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool. It is an attempt to attract credibility when the search is on for truth. Out of respect for those that have been affected by this terrible accident I left my reply to this post until those on this forum who know the victims personally have had a chance to say their goodbyes :
"That appears to have been precisely his problem, and it looks like I was pretty close to spot-on with my projected scenario, that I posted in post #56, about 4 hrs before the wreckage was spotted.
All the indications are that the impact point is in terrain sloping at around 35°-40°, and that the Dragon was doing a high RoC at substantial speed. The terrain is so steep, the SAR choppers couldn't land at the actual crash site."

All this was gleaned from a photo. It appears I wasted my time being trained as an accident investigator when all I had to do is look at a photo. "a high RoC", really? Did these poor people meet their terrible fate when the aircraft hit the terrain from below? High angle of attack and high rate of descent I can believe.
I won't go into what I take out of that photo but I repeat, let the searchers search and let the investigators investigate. Further, let the families and friends of these people grieve and the rest resist hypothesizing lest the ill informed comments find their way to a coronial investigation.
I agree with the comments about an emphasis in training on inadvertent VFR into IMC. Even better, improve the met reporting and bring back more proactive operational oversight of VFR from flight planning to flight following and SAR watch.

Change what you like at the end of the day the responsibility lies with the Captain of the aircraft for its safety and nothing is going to change that. We do not need any more oversight in this industry.

I have also waited before entering this discussion. I find it ridiculous to suggest a high ROC and substantial speed, given the very leisurely rate of climb of a Dragon and its best climb speed of, I imagine, about 60 knots would cause that sort of impact damage.

A very high rate of descent and very high speed and an angle approaching the vertical would be more likely.

Sadly this has happened very times before now and will continue to happen in the future.

I grieve for the loss of fellow aviators.

.


...and there we have it. Compleatly different veiws from posters who probably have a fairly good idea about aircraft and accidents.

The flying-spike suggestion of waiting for an accident report before we theorise sounds like a good idea to me.





.

I wasn't a friend of Des', but am one of several friends who were customers of his at his automotive repair business here in Wynnum. He talked about the Dragon and suggested a flight with him which I will always regret not doing.

The thing we all appreciated about Des was his manner in dealing with us as mechanical dunces. He was always fair, communicative and did what he said he would do. He was the only mechanic who made our wives not feel stupid because he treated them with respect when they brought their cars in for service.

I suspect high 'RoC' was simply a typo and instead a high RoD was the intended meaning given the rest of the context of the entire statement.

"let the searchers search and let the investigators investigate. Further, let the families and friends of these people grieve and the rest resist hypothesizing lest the ill informed comments find their way to a coronial investigation."

Well said FS.

My condolences to any and all affected by this tragic accident. May the passage of time heal your sorrow at this sad time.

Stiky.

I've known Des for a short time (six or so years) and recognised one of aviation's heroes.
He didn't break records and get tickertape parades; he was a quiet hero.
He loved that old aeroplane and shared her with all who shared that love.
An old bloke once stated about vintage car buffs, " There's the goers and there's the showers".
Des was definitely a goer. He didn't have a rope around his aeroplane with signs saying 'NO closer'.
He let us smell her. All older aeroplanes have their own smell.
Old and bold pilots can be led to an aeroplane blindfolded and told to sniff. They'll announce, Tiger Moth, Chippy or DC-3 or whatever, soon enough.
Des shared her with us all. We could go and sit in the cockpit and see what it was like for those pilots who went before us and were stoked to get command of a twin.
He was ready to take people up for a fly whenever he had time.
I went twice. First time was with my cousin who had never been in a Dragon and always wanted to, my son whose grandfather had many hours in them, a mate who's 'first time up' had been in a Dragon when he was a little kid and wanted to relive the thrill, as I did.
As an eight and nine year old, I'd sat on my old man's lap in one and 'flown the plane' on a few occasions. We'd chased emus and dingos on one trip.
Des didn't just take us up for a fly; he gave us options as to what we wanted to see. The three older blokes had seen Brissy from the air hundreds of times, so Des rang a mate and checked he was at home and the state of his strip and took us there.
Two takeoffs and landings as well as a spin up the Wivenhoe, over Watts Bridge and the top end of the Somerset dam and home.
He charged only what it cost and I know the total we paid wasn't what it cost to operate her.
We returned to the halcyon days of aviation, listening to a couple of Gypsies gurgling along at 1900 RPM. We looked through vibration wires and stands of struts. The ground wasn't far below and it oozed along at a sedate 90, so we could really see what was happening on the ground. A farmer looked up while driving his tractor and waved.
We dropped in to 'a paddick with a bit of a strip near the fence'. It had white painted tires delineating the edges and worn grass to show where aircraft taxied off.
We were welcomed by a few aviation types and invited under a haus wind for a cuppa and some bickies.
Naturally flying and aeroplanes were discussed and there were a couple of soppy dogs needin' a pat and more importantly, any spare bits of biscuit.
The cat put in an appearance and looked us over. We were deemed OK, so were permitted to stand still and get our legs rubbed against.
After the cuppa, we wandered around looking in hangars at a marvellous array of interesting aeroplanes from rag and tube to the latest plastic technology.
The flight took an hour but it was most of a morning that we got the nostalgic whiffs of avgas exhaust, leather seats, doped fabric and country air.
We got stuck in and were allowed to help fold the wings back against the airframe, attach tow bars and carefully manoeuvre the old red girl back into the hangar and get the wheels over the dots on the hangar floor.
Unlike the costly, regimented experience of a commercial operation, we felt part of laid back owner operations. Three of us were logbook fillers with totals of thousands of hours and were as chuffed as we were back in the day when a four seater was a big deal.

I rounded up five more people for a repeat performance a couple of years later and they were stoked.

A mate told me that he went for a fly in Riama at Toowoomba. Thirty five to forty minutes and Des wouldn't take any money for the flight. They pressed paper in his hands and he said, "I'll bung it in my Flying Doctor kick".

That was Des... a sharer and carer.

Aviation will be poorer for the loss of a great bloke and I guess Riama will go to Moth Care or another restorer for a rebuild.
I certainly hope so and will bung my hand in my pocket if needed to, to resurrect her as a monument to Des Porter and his dad.

What a beautiful post.

Well that's that,they now rest with God or whomever God is to you.

Jabba my friend & to those that new Des & his friends I extend my sympathies to you all who are involved in that field of aviation, a dangerous & at times unforgiving world you guys fly in.

Perhaps in the future as I've said in the past we can ALL learn from the likes of Des's misfortunes & take a little part of the Des's of the past world with us every time we advance the throttle.

One thing I used to keep in the back of my mind & this was instilled in me by an early instructor was that anytime you where flying in weather that had any significant cloud around say above 4 Octa's then never fly in VMC blw the highest peak of terrain in yr immediate area. In other words know where you are at all times & the LSALT. The ONLY time this was not a major consideration (terrain height wise) was when there wasn't a cloud in sight.
I got caught once in my 33 yrs of driving planes, fortunately for me it was over an inlet which was SL (obviously) & I couldn't out climb the surrounding terrain due cloud to get to my destination so I diverted coastal at very low level to find a country strip & land.I swear right there & then that I'd heed my instructors advice big time...........I'd been on a short break down to YFLI (yes I know Jabba SE over water in my silly days!!:))& luckily had a change of undies!!!

RIP Des & those that joined you for we are more humble than ever as we all ought to be right now.

Wmk2

Neville Nobody
 

I agree with what you say if the oversight is the Big Brother punitive regulator type of oversight.
I think we had the correct model when we had FSUs and FSOs that were local and knew the area and maybe even flew in it. But then again I was an FSO and have a small hatchet to grind.
I couldn't count the number of times I have passed on aircraft reports of 8 octas below 5000 with vis less than a K to VFR even Sartime aircraft.
We can all come up with maybes but as has already been mentioned the last defense is the PIC.

Remember the good times.. lovely post sixties

Lovely post sixties relic.

A great picture you've painted for us sixtiesrelic. Thanks for taking the time and care to write it.