For those that love to say 'reference the omni/NDB' when departing non-towered aerodromes:

1. Pull out Jepps or AIPs
2. If Jepps, go to section ATC, Communications para 8.8 (page AU-936). If AIPs, go to GEN 3.4 para 5.14.8 (page GEN 3.4-56).
3. Have a read of 'Departure Report - Procedural when notifying departure report to a control tower'.
4. Then read the next item 'Departure Report - non-towered aerodrome'.
5. Compare and contrast.
6. Stop saying 'reference the omni' when departing a non-towered aerodrome.

You Qlink pilots started it, now every man and his dog is using it!

For those jumping on the 'get over poor R/T' bandwagon - it's our job to get the correct information to ATC efficiently. It's really not that hard.

Thanks Andobar. Spot on...! That's exactly correct...

What I like is pilots giving their inbound radial to a non-controlled aerodrome when there is no aid or just an NDB!

If there is no VOR there is no radial. Simple! :D

Ohhh and to those pressurised aircraft drivers, when departing a non-controlled aerodrome, SAY the flight level you are on climb to! Not just FLIGHT LEVELS!

Remember there are and very well could be PRESSURISED VFR AIRCRAFT flying below FL180 or more so below FL245 in some sections of Australian airspace! :eek:

Radio Phraseology as described in the AIP or Jepp is not definitive, easily locatable (there is subtext in differing locations of said references), nor is it consistent, the profiles are arguable "clumsy" and subject to change without obvious notification. Go on tell me it isn't!

When you blame the hordes for not getting it right, you are probably not allocating responsibility in the correct area.

Attention Messrs Hold Short et al, it might help you to produce (and publish) a definitive reference of all the necessary radio calls - if you find this too difficult to compile, then go back and read some of the posts of those who have significant and wide ranging experience and see why they say what they say about this subject.

Luckily for all, such a document exists Butcher. It's the AIP. I agree it isn't the easiest text to read but the information is there for those who can be bothered to seek it.

Experience is not an excuse for sloppy RT. If anything, lack of experience is.

It's not hard to be professional. AIP GEN 3.4 is an easy starting point.

While even I don't get my calls word for word perfect, they are at least as close as possible to the AIP.

How many people read back their squawk codes on taxi at places like Brisbane? I know the guys down at RFDS are now doing it. Why? Because it says so in AIP.

morno

correct Morno! Even the number of POB is required for non RPT operators too if you read the AIP. Quite a lot of detail required and NOT just "abc, at GA apron, request taxi".

On the humorous side... today I was inbound to an aerodrome at roughly a similar time to another IFR aircraft. I broadcast what was required, which included my revised eta. And he responded with all the right information but had to add on the end " and when we arrive we'll make sure your off the runway before we land"!

Now that's a super idea I must say! :)

"Hey Zapa, you bored? Trawling DG RP from Mehico? How about you mind your own business?"

Sorry bloggs, Im as ozzie as the next bludger.

But as an employee of a foreign carrier, it bugs me when I return to oz and listen to the way ATC talk to foreign pilots non english as a first language types. Insisting on word perfect oz only phraseology is stoooopid considering this crew just flew through 50 different countries last month and only gets to hear oz atc once a year.

It may make you feel all warm and cozy inside to pretend professionalism is word perfect r/t but a better way would be to fit in the rest of the world. The most important thing is to get the message across and when atc ask a foreign pilot to report over oodnadatta instead of oscar oscar delta then .......arghhhh!

Same with most other rules/regs and crap ozmates go on with totally clueless that there is an entire world out there doing just fine thankyou very much

rant over

Zapata, do you mean like insisting on getting a readback of required items? Little things like flight levels, headings & clearances. I doubt anyone insists on word perfect phraseology. Geez, you wouldn't be referring to the American way when you say the rest of the world would you? :E

We're human. If you usually refer to OOD as Oodnadatta & far more often than as oscar oscar delta then it's going to slip out as the usual way occasionally.

That really helps when descending at 300 kias, and around 3000' FPM, on profile and the aircraft captures the last assigned level because one can't get a word in edge ways for all the reading back of "copied no IFR traffic" etc etc etc.:ugh:

What Zap said.

Both national and foreign carriers seemed to be doing OK with ATC at Heathrow Director, Tokyo Control and SOCAL Approach last time I was there, without being castigated for not reading back previously-requested weather deviations etc. The Aussie read-back requirements are getting ridiculous.

And why does Australia have the ground tugs on aircraft frequencies at our international gateways? Further clutter.

The last major ATC incident that affected my airline was in Australian airspace not that long ago. And in three decades of aviation the only time I've seen two go-rounds in a row due to ATC was at an Australian international airport.

Out of ten on my global rating for efficiency, ease of use and 'pleasantness', the Aussie ATC environment gets a lukewarm 'four' (the Brits get 'ten', and China and India share 'one').

Ahhhh, this thread is giving me a headache!!

What i can say is some of those Pel Air AA boys are the worst, not all of them just a few. I have heard some shockers from them, for instance, "Centre (not Melbourne Center just "Center" VAI taxis Mildura" THAT IS IT, how crap is that!!and i have heard ****e similar to that from those boys numerous times and they are meant to be so called "some of the better more experienced pilots!" does not show much ambition to be professional at all. Sorry you AA pel air guys but had to be said.

The other one that is super annoying is people requesting traffic......WHY?? that's what ATC is there for, TO GIVE YOU TRAFFIC. I heard someone taxing at East Sale one day and requested traffic, the controller came back and said "no need to request traffic sir that's why we are here" that just says it all.

Non standard calls just sound ****e, the end! how some people come up with their own radio phraseology who knows but why don't you do all of us a favor and read yours Jeps.

How horrible would it be if our airways started sounding like they do in the US?

Keep it Professional

...the US does pretty well, actually, especially considering the volume of traffic, domestic and international, that it handles. Why would it be 'horrible?'

But there is a bearing!:ok:

Indeed HH, but some seem not to know the difference:hmm:

Compliance rules, ok!...
 

LeadSled

My opinion:

Over the last 20 or 30 years, the Australian Government has lost the ability to legislate for or otherwise create productivity or performance in either the public and private sector. This is coupled with a simliar loss on how to monitor productivity or performance.

This has resulted in a public service that is only able to monitor compliance! In the absence of being able to create productivity, all the government can do is create more regulations, which creates the need to monitor compliance with the new regulations. This is how the public service measures success, IMHO.

This attitude is now pervading Australian society and we're picking up on it.

Evidenced by threads such as this one, where people appear to be losing sleep over whether someone else says "Taxi's" instead of "Taxiing".

Really, some of you guys are holding on a bit tight. :hmm:

Hold Short. You sound like you need to get out in the world a bit more. I'm guessing you've never flown into Darwin where the controllers insist on POB even if you're RPT?

Guess you've not operated in an HF environment then? I first heard other pilots calling "IFR Taxi" when I was flying in the Tiwi islands where there is only HF comms on the ground at many places. It gave the HF operator a second to get his/her self ready to copy. I repeated a few taxi calls to HF before I got into this habit.

As mentioned earlier, if you're flying IFR and you call up on the ground to cancel "SAR", I'm thinking the Controller is going to know that it's Sarwatch and not Sartime.

You're getting wrapped around the axles on some pretty anal stuff like "Sar" vs. "Sarwatch". How about all the IFR pilots who cancel Sar (sorry, Sarwatch :ooh:) when they're over 5 Nm from the airport? Saw this plenty of times when I'm in the circuit. Someone cancels Sar(watch) at my aerodrome, I'm looking for them then they'll call "10 miles inbound" on CTAF.

There's some gold in this thread...

Funny stuff. I can't recall the last time I was asked to turn LEFT onto heading FL350 :} :}. Confusion? Not sure about you, but I think that the words "turn onto heading" before the number prevent any confusion. Similarly, "climb to" or "descend to" generally give me the impression that the Controller wants me to climb or descend, and not turn.

Another gem:

Most people I see "flight levels" when departing non-towered airports. ATCO's often give traffic as "climbing flight levels". Why? Possibly because it's highly unlikely that anyone listening on CTAF is going to care, as long as they know I'm climbing to over 10,000'! Any IFR would already be aware of me and my intentions already, similarly to meatbombers.

When is a VFR (pressurised or not) going to be monitoring a CTAF? Arriving, departing, or transiting. How many CTAF's extend up to the flight levels? And how many VFR pilots flying at flight levels monitor the CTAF's they're flying over?

If a VFR is arriving to an AD and decides to monitor CTAF from 40Nm (13,000' ish) and hears an RPT giving a departure report on a reciprocal heading and hears that the RPT is climbing to "Flight levels" instead of "FL180", he's not going to care which flight level.


LOVE comments like that. :yuk: Did your instructor also say that if you had sloppy parade ground drill it meant that you're probably a sloppy pilot as well? Makes about as much sense.

DIVOSH!

Divosh... :D:D:D:D

Post of the thread!

'Divosh'.....we luvs ya !:D:D:DCouldn't have said it better myself:ok:
I also couldn't be bothered typing all what you did but well done as it's insane how crazy some are getting over this!



Wmk2

I've got so much material here! Just can't wait to fly past Townsville again! :E

BROADCASTING.....

Leaving, Taxi's, for Flightlevels, reference the NDB, if available, etc etc...

"All stations TSV, ABC, a magnificent Aztec is 10nm inbound from the south, on descent from 5000, circuit at 10!

How simple is it?

Advice.......

Make radio calls to the best of your ability and training...

Flick to the AIP's/Jepps if you're curious (which we should all do from time to time anyway).

If you find you're calls have been slightly off... like saying "on climb to" rather than "climbing to"......
Then just start using the right terminology?
Rather than starting on one of the pedantic lovers threads.

It's the thing about being a pilot. There's so many things we have to get right... Keep flicking through the manuals, your whole career you'll realize how many little things you say and do that aren't quite 100% polished.

Great post divosh :)