Where are the AME apprentices?
 

It appears less and less apprentices are attracted to AME trades, which must create an even greater skilled labour crisis in GA aircraft maintenance in the future.

I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice, age no barrier, in Central Queensland and no applicants. Zip, zilch, no interest at all.

Most trades are experiencing critical skills shortages, but if there are dimminishing numbers of apprentices entering aeroskills trades it will be impossible to keep Australia's aging aircraft flying in the future.

It is not only aeroskills trades, it is elsewhere too. I work in a trade, non-aviation, and we too have a skills shortage. I also have a quite a lot of friends and associates from a broad range of trade areas, and they too have a skills shortage.

Have you thought about advertising for, and taking on, a 1st year apprentice?

So many people in various trades want to hire 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices.
Why? thats easy, because they are productive now, and the business owner can charge for the work they produce now.

Problem: A 1st year apprentice takes time (and therefore money) to teach them the skills of the trade to a point where they produce chargable work.

Reason 1: A lot (not all, but a lot) of kids out of school lack initiative, heck, they even need to be told "If you're not busy, at least make it look like you're busy. Pick up a broom and sweep a clean floor if you have nothing else to do". They need someone to "hold their hand" whilst they learn (at least for the 1st year)

Reason 2: By the time these people develop this initiative, and be more useful (if not chargable) around the workplace, they are over 21 and need to be paid an adult wage, which costs the owner of the business more.


So, as to the trade shortage, who is at fault?
Is it that people no longer want to work in a trade area?
Or
Is it that business owners no longer wish to hire 1st year apprentices? (they just want to poach them from other businesses who have given them their initial start)

I believe that in a majority of cases that it is the later. Business owners need to deal with the either Reason 1, or Reason 2.

Again, Have you thought about taking on a 1st year apprentice?

Just remember, you were at some stage either someones Reason 1, or their Reason 2.

Mike

Mike

I hear you loud and clear. No one is more aware of the trade skills shortage or trying to address the problem than me.

I already employ 149 full time apprentices; 15 part time apprentices; 32 School Based apprentices and 111 trainees.

There are already full time first year apprentices in the work place. The work place is unable to efficiently provide effective trade supervision for a further first year apprentice.

On this occasion I am seeking a 2nd to 4th Year Aeroskills apprentice and appalled at the lack of interest and long term impact on Australia's capacity and ability to maintain its current aircraft fleet.

It may surprise you that the greatest growth sector in new Australian apprenticeships is in mature age Apprenticeships. Most trade employers are now paying over Award payments to apprentices; they recognise that apprentice wages are an investment in the future prosperity of their own business.

You probably missed Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year. Many employers are exascerbated with the lack of committment in todays Gen Y.

It's hard to pull a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice from anywhere; regardless of trade. Apprentices often like to stick with their original employer unless they are unhappy and without a large increase in salary and a desire to move to CQ I can see that many might not be interested. Understood that it's difficult to lose the apprentice when the shoe is on the other foot too.

Quote:

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Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year.

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Obviously with 307 apprentices/trainees on your books, you know more about the trade skills shortage and apprenticeship cancellations than I do.

Yes I agree with you there. However, in my experience, those who lose apprentices in the 1st year or two, tend to be those employers who treat the newbies as slave labour and dont teach them the trade... if employers do the right thing by their employees, then the employees do the right thing by their employers. This is the case with not only apprenticeships, but all forms of employment. Greed from either side destroys employment relationships.

Yes Mike, you are correct. But the tide is turning and those employers not committed to trade training and acceptable practices are unable to attract apprentice and qualified trade labour.

Our cancellation rate is still around 37% with the usual reasons for cancellation being:
"My girl friend is leaving town....",
"I want to go to the Mines....",
"My mates are all now in Brisbane....",
"The work is too hard......",
"I have a job on better money and flex hours at McDonalds/KFC/etc....."

There are many problems in our apprenticeship system, none more acute than here in rural Australia.

Why would you want to become an aircraft engineer anyway?

Normally anti-sociable hours, poor money to start with, hours of study for different licences, responsibility of signing of work on something that will carry pasengers in a hostile environment, being told to do dodgy repairs, putting up with dim witted aircraft owners that want everything done at mates rates but will take his Mercedes/BMW to the local dealership and pay $100 plus for labour.

And you wonder why people go and work in mines.

What about the flood of students through the training institutes? Are they still as useless as the off the street 1st years?

Yep exactly what Charlie said.

When I have kids there is no f :mad:ing way I'm going to let them go anywhere near an aircraft trade. Especially now the new dodgy B1/B2 system is here.

Aircraft engineers are the most underpaid more buggers in the world, in my humble opinion, especially with CASA breathing down your neck and the the Australian legal system.

Have you tried making your company known at Aviation Australia? Quite a few of the apprentices I have worked with completed a pre vocational course there to better their chances at an apprenticeship....

mmmm, and what evidence do you have for this spurious statement?

HP is paying in the order of AU$75,000 as base pay for dual airframe engine licence.
Helicopter engineers are being paid 80,000 to 100,000 on shore and up to 140,000 offshore on tour basis.

CASA Australia is only doing it's job, certify for the work correctly and you will be left alone.

I haven't had dealings with Aust courts over maintenance matters, what is your experience that makes you fear them?

Cheers
BH

My question is to the original poster who seems to have enough 1st year apprentices but cant seem to be able to hire 2nd to 4th year apprentices. Why dont you train your 1st years and grow them to second, third & fourth year apprentices?

I have some experience in this area and what I am hearing is that many first year apprentices quit because of the way they are treated, especially in GA. Many GA companies hire apprentices purely as cheap labour, without really considering that they are required to train these apprentices. By the way, that's why they get paid lower wages, as they are, in a sense paying for their training. If you want to hire someone to clean up after the LAMEs and do general work around the hangar, hire a TA or hangar rat and pay the going rate, which is much more that an apprentice. While I understand and don't disagree with the concept of "paying your dues", training must still be acomplished under the tutelage of an experienced LAME. This often just does not happen, many LAMEs have the attitude of "I learned the hard way, you must too". This attitude is quite prevalent today. Business pressures also tend to push training into the category of, I just don't have time for it.

Taking on an apprentice requires a company to commit to a contract of training. Many companies forget this almost immediatly. I have had many apprentices, former apprentices and LAMEs confirm these things to me. If you are going to take on an apprentice, make sure you have the resources to do it. Identify a LAME or LAMEs who "desire" to pass on their knowledge and experience to the apprentice, dont throw them to the grumpy old farts who dont want them anyway.

I understand fully why it's hard to find 2nd to 4th year apprentices willing to join a company. If they made it past their first year and still like it they will stay where they are. If they dont stay with that company then the old line of "once bitten, twice shy" seems the appropriate reason.

As to the comment about Training institute graduates being no better than the average 1st year "off the street" apprentice, you are missing the point. These graduates have been given all the theory of a 4 year apprenticeship, but very little in the way of practical experience. While they may seem no better than the "off the street" version at first, I will venture to say that by the end of the graduates' first year of their apprenticeship, he/she is much more capable than the off the street apprentice at the end of their first year. This is because they have most of theory knowledge already and dont have to be released for training for up to 10 weeks a year, Many of the so called "traditional" apprentices came back from tech forgeting their hand skills and have missed a lot of the continuity that the hangar provides. The other obvious advantage is the company doesn't have to pay the apprentice while he/she is non productive at school. Again I constantly hear the harp of the "old fart LAME's" thats not the way I did it, so it's no good! Get over it! This is the way it's being done more and more now.

Bottom line, if you want good 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices, invest time and effort into your 1st year apprentices.

Sidesaddle, refer to post #6 by Torres - he explains why they keep leaving.

37% is probably not that bad. Universities are probably worse and many professional white collar worker jobs are around 15-30% per year for what I do, not for 4 years, thats per year...

I have recently worked for Hawkers and didn't get anywhere near that. Also I have seen a heavy duty plant mech 3rd apprentice on 75k a year. In the west it pays to be in mining swinging a spanner.

If I was a mining recruiter I would be down at my local airport poaching guys . Saying to them here is a job with more pay , better roster , better conditions, we feed you on site, we house you on site, little stress and no threat of litigation hanging over you.

Who are the fools here ?

VH-XXX, what Torres said is only part of the story. What many "organisations" don't understand is that they are a large part of the problem and the reason Torres gives are only the excuse given and not the only reason. Most people tend to avoid conflict and not say that they are being treated badly to the individual responsible.

I know of several cases in the last couple of years where GA operators lost their apprentices because they treated the apprentice with disdain and refused to invest in their training. The apprentice told the operator the "job is not for them" but told others the real reason. Then the operators would say when asked why the apprentice left, that they were "useless" or "unsuited" to aviation. It's like anything else you invest in, take care of them and they will earn you money. Treat them badly, you'll lose them, whether the investment be aircraft, tools or apprentices and tradesmen.

It's time many companies face reality, they are often the problem. Sorry if I've sugar coated it!

SideSaddle, you have hit the nail on the head!! :D

In my working career (aviation and non-aviation) I myself have worked for a number of employers, some great, some good and some bad. Funnily enough (or is that Unfortunately enough) the bosses that that have been the the biggest :mad:holes and who treat their employees (most employees, not only me), with disrespect, are those in the ga aviation sector. They, the :mad:holes, are out to make a dollar no matter who gets in their way. Crikey, they would even sell their own mothers into illegal prostitution in some third-world back water if they could make a few bucks!

That being said, some of the nicest people in the world that I have met are involved in aviation.

Hasherufc
you are correct the mining industry pays well above the odds.
This is not the issue that Torres is speaking about.
The offer of 75k was from HP Cairns but was less than Ican earn as a contractor.
At this time there is a dearth of LAMEs in the regional and outback areas, good for those of us that contract in those areas.

Cheers
BH

if i had it to do over again i would get a lobotomy and stay away from this business,

i counsel all i know to stay away from it

i work nights, i get no thanks or recognition for my hard work/skill and knowledge and most nights i come home dirty and stinking, i got mates who fix computers and other software types that stay clean and make more money

too bad i love what i do:confused:

I am a "grumpy old fart LAME" working in Oz and the rest of the world doing contracts. While there is a shortage of LAME'S I will continue to have work offered, plus I have a work ethic which is sadly lacking in a lot of young people I have met in aviation; this includes engineers and pilots.
I have a wealth of knowlege to impart and sadly I have met very few AME'S or apprentices who wish to be a custodian of that knowlege.
The other point is that I will actively discourage anybody coming into the industry due to the fact that a LAME must be a criminal; all the penalty points written into the regulations mean that they must be so.
CASA are a joke, as are the licencing regulations; still not finished after 20+ years.
The aircraft maintenance industry is a sad shell of it's former self; I have enjoyed it but now the enjoyment is rapidly going south and now I am semi retired. This means I can pick the jobs I want and leave the rest, a luxury denied to many still in the industry due low wages and family, or other comitments.

humph
 

I have been trying for the past year to start my AME apprenticeship in Queensland. I was advised by many people in the industry to not bother with courses and just jump straight in to learning on the job. Which suits me much better anyway. I have since been knocked back by four joints for one reason only...I'm female. I have applied all through Queensland and have had no luck, while I appreciate the honesty, I still can't understand how my sex can be a problem :ugh:. I have been fortunate enough to have some fantastic engineers wanting to help out with Scheduled experience hours and this has helped me greatly. But all those hours (total of 3 months full time) was done out of my own time and still the company pen pushers wont give me a go. I won't be giving up, I do my own study and am trying to get through my exams. But in reality I need to be working in the industry with a mentor who wants me to suceed.

Don't give up Ellyot .Over the last week I had a chance to be working with a 3rd year female apprentice. Gotta say that she was on top of her game . Sex has nothing to do with it , its about personal drive and ambition.

Sorry, been a bit busy........

Interesting comments in this thread, some correct, some the results of misunderstandings. An apprentice needs to have "the passion" and an employer must have understanding and a genuine desire to impart training and knowledge.

Yes, that is true, but I can't compress a decade of mentoring, supporting and training Australian apprentices into one short PPRuNe post...... We all have sad failures, but completing and graduating around a hundred apprentices and trainees each year makes it all worth while! :ok:

Well, not quite. The cancellation/failure rate of apprentices in the mining industry is no better than in other industries, despite the additional mentoring and support they often receive. Not all apprentices can hack the cyclic roster, living on site, generally ten hour days, seven days per week of two week on, two week off rosters.

I think you were very fortunate they knocked you back. If that is their attitude, they don't deserve you.

I have female apprentices in many trades including building and mechanical. Most show great dedication, excellent progress and complete early to become excellent trades people.

Ellyot, in another life I worked in and around the hangars of a fairly sizable operation where dozens were employed maintaining various g.a. and s.a.l. a/c. It was rural oz not capital city and it was many years ago. On occasions I worked beside one young female apprentice AME. She was a pleasure to work with and very thorough and didn't mind getting her hands dirty.

...I have written but then deleted some lengthy text on her treatment within her workplace; I had begun to rant. Long story short this poor young woman was leaned on, harrassed, abused, the subject of all possible verbal assaults until she could tolerate it no more...

Torres has good advice, it's a numbers game unless you have strong recommendations. Those who turned you away are no place for you; the very last thing you want is to be accepted by these people and then later resented. If they knock you back, turn and walk away.

Your time will come but you'll have to persist.

ellyot
Hang in there..!! Get your Basics (while you have time)and Don't rely on the B1/B2 stuff provided by Tafe's etc etc..Most employers prefer to see some-one who steps forward and uses their own inititive to get the ball rolling..
Rant over

I am aware this may occur in a very small minority of workplaces but fortunately, appalling practices of that nature are coming to an end. Where that does occur, it is the result of exceedingly poor management and is generally reflected in the abysmal quality of the service product they sell.

I do not tollerate harrassment, bullying, abuse or gender inequality in respect to the apprentices I employ. Equally, I expect apprentices to be committed to training, their trade and harmony and prosperity in the workplace.

You must be old school - I haven't heard that term for over 20 years! :D

"SAL" - Supplementary Airline License or Reg 203 Services - were scheduled air services, generally operated by aircraft less than 12,500 pounds MTOW, under an Exemption to ANR203. They operated prior to September 1988, the last time Australia had a complete working set of sane civil aviation regulations. :ok:

Why 12,500 pounds limit? Because it was half the max TO weight of a Douglas DC3, the "standard" airline aircraft in 1948.

Not THAT friggin' old but old enough to have worked in those times.

Time to accept the present!
 

This is the attitude that needs to change! Basics are all but dead. Come Monday 27/06, if you haven't already begun your basics you will not be able to start. If you have started you have only a short window to complete it and still come out with a restricted licence. The B1/B2 is what is the "normal" way of gaining a licence in Australia now. Like it or not, agree with it or not, it is the law. Forget the past, it wont help to comiserate about it, in other words GET OVER IT!:ugh:

As for the lady getting an apprenticeship, what better initiative can she show than to get all her apprenticeship theory out of the way first so that when you do get the apprenticeship, you dont lose any work time by going away to school.

I have heard so much S#!+ about how terrible the new system is from so many LAMEs and employers (GA mostly). If they would spend all that energy on learning how it works, what advantages it has and learn to make it work for them instead of whinging ceaselesly about it, they might find that it's not so bad.

Nobody likes change, but that's life, get on with it.:ok:

As a student
 

As a student who is currently studying at Aviation Australia, just so that I can get the theory out of the way, to make myself look like a better investment. However being entirely new in this profession and noone in my family or friends, know much about how to get into this field. I have tried career search engines and the like, but we never seem to find many GA companies, if any at all. Is there a way that I do not know about, to find these openings?

Sidesaddle

i agree, adapt or move on the b1/b2 system is the way of the future, like it or not, - remember the rest of the western world has been using it for around 20 years - time for Australia to come into the light - and speaking from experience the part 66/145/147 etc system as a whole works well

and Lichtenstein

to be completely honest, almost all of my jobs in this business i have gotten by walking into a hangar and saying ' hi my name is bill, and i am looking for work, have you got any????' and then get a number and check back once a month or so (not every day that annoys the crap outa people)

in fact most ppl i talk to have gotten jobs this way

but, back to my previous post

RUN AWAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY, RUN AWAAAAAAAAAYYYYY , don't make eye contact, avert your eyes....... quickly step back from the aviation business

:E

I am assuming (and hoping) that age is no barrier in this industry?

Can't be - I've seen a lot of very old engineers........ :E

You can commence an Australian Apprenticeship up to 59 years of age.

Nice to hear. I am currently qualified in another trade area (Refrigeration, AC, building management) and am looking into an AME career. I did complete my original apprenticeship in 2.5 years, with credits etc.

Ozadski,
There are actually a number of trades listed as having "Skills Shortages"
If listed, there are a number of government incentives offered, depending on state.

E.g I had a mature age apprentice on for some time, I got (fed) money for employing him, a fortnightly subsidy for his wage (fed... 150pw for first year, 100 for second) , he got 800 tool (fed) at the end of his first 3 months, an extra 800 at the start of his final year), then he got 6 monthly wage top ups of about 500 (state...vic), and 100% reimbursement for school fees (state) (If I paid it, i got a tax break that was worth less than the fee's). Workcover (vic) is also paid by the Gov.

So its not all bad for an employer/MA Apprentice.

------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the high drop out rate of 1st year apprentices, I blame our Education system. Sure there are some crud employers out there, and the money isn't great, but it is a lot better than the dole now (well for a 16-18 yo with no kids). The problem I have found with 1st years, is that they have zero to little practical hands on skills. The abolition of Tech Schools here in Vic saw to it that the kids that were never going to make it in Uni received no experience in trade orientated subjects. This situation looks to change soon, but not soon enough. I've had 4 out of 5 first years leave to pursue other trades, and the only reason I have the one I do now, is that he grew up playing with cars alongside his dad mechanic, and he decided he hated oil.

I had the oppurtunity to take up a cabinet making app when I left school, but without the tech school experience I wouldn't have known that my timber skills were limited to making firewood.

When tech schools return, we'll see the retention rates on apprentices improve.

Cheers
Jas


edit...Ozadski, you might like to research something here, if you can find/print/comprehend the info, then you will have something to aid a prospective employer in your favour :)

linky... Skill Shortage Lists

Jas,

Thanks for the info. I know of that list you referred to. My current position is also on it!

As for the money, I anticipated it to be a lot less then what I am currently remunerated, and less perks, but I expect that. This change is more about lifestyle. I currently find what I am doing not as challenging as it once was. I'm not implying that I am not capable, just a little sick of it.

I also grew up around fixing mechanical things (dad was a hands on Mech eng, and an ex RAF pilot), from cars, boats, electronics etc. I went into my current trade, as I originally found it challenging, and it pays well.

There are a few reasons for wanting a career change, which I won't bore you with now. Well ok one.... I hate being a part changer. I have to know why something has failed, and rectify it. Cause and effect.

I digress. Thanks for the info, I'll have a snoop around here.

Regards
Adski

Filipinas? :hmm:

I think the next generation will come from India. That's my prediction.

The government has signed an agreement to allow 40000+ workers to come to Australia to fill the skills shortage in Australia left by the mining boom.

Expect to see lots of chaps in GA as AMEs wanting to turn a spanner if it means the opportunity to earn more than home,and the possibility of a residency visa in the future.

This is quickly becoming a profession for people from 3rd world countries with only a smattering of locals taking up an apprenticeship in Australia.

Bug a Lugs..
that is a crock!

I actually work in an industry outside of aviation. My outside looking in view of the aviation trades sector, is that it is one of the healthiest in the country. My industry is automotive body.

At current the auto body industry employs .0003 of an apprentice per workshop. How does that compare to the aviation industry? It is probably very close to 1 per workshop.

Barring a few operators, the aviation industry has a better mindset for training new people than the auto industry does.

I personally would employ at least 2 more apprentices, but i don't have the tradesmen to cover them.

As i stated earlier, it is a 2 fold problem..............begining with the education system and ending with prospective employers


Cheers
Jas

Well Jas,where do you think the future is coming from,because there doesn't seem to be too many wanting to take up an apprenticeship?

Its understandable as many young locally based people who would normally be interested in a mechanical/electrical based trade, can earn more in their first few years out of school working for Telstra or Dick Smith,and you don't get dirty,work reasonable hours. Or they head to Uni.

Jet Airways and other Indian operators are training young guys, who after a few years are upping sticks and heading overseas for better wages & conditions than they will enjoy in India.