Where are the AME apprentices?
Thread Starter
Where are the AME apprentices?
It appears less and less apprentices are attracted to AME trades, which must create an even greater skilled labour crisis in GA aircraft maintenance in the future.
I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice, age no barrier, in Central Queensland and no applicants. Zip, zilch, no interest at all.
Most trades are experiencing critical skills shortages, but if there are dimminishing numbers of apprentices entering aeroskills trades it will be impossible to keep Australia's aging aircraft flying in the future.
I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice, age no barrier, in Central Queensland and no applicants. Zip, zilch, no interest at all.
Most trades are experiencing critical skills shortages, but if there are dimminishing numbers of apprentices entering aeroskills trades it will be impossible to keep Australia's aging aircraft flying in the future.
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It is not only aeroskills trades, it is elsewhere too. I work in a trade, non-aviation, and we too have a skills shortage. I also have a quite a lot of friends and associates from a broad range of trade areas, and they too have a skills shortage.
Have you thought about advertising for, and taking on, a 1st year apprentice?
So many people in various trades want to hire 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices.
Why? thats easy, because they are productive now, and the business owner can charge for the work they produce now.
Problem: A 1st year apprentice takes time (and therefore money) to teach them the skills of the trade to a point where they produce chargable work.
Reason 1: A lot (not all, but a lot) of kids out of school lack initiative, heck, they even need to be told "If you're not busy, at least make it look like you're busy. Pick up a broom and sweep a clean floor if you have nothing else to do". They need someone to "hold their hand" whilst they learn (at least for the 1st year)
Reason 2: By the time these people develop this initiative, and be more useful (if not chargable) around the workplace, they are over 21 and need to be paid an adult wage, which costs the owner of the business more.
So, as to the trade shortage, who is at fault?
Is it that people no longer want to work in a trade area?
Or
Is it that business owners no longer wish to hire 1st year apprentices? (they just want to poach them from other businesses who have given them their initial start)
I believe that in a majority of cases that it is the later. Business owners need to deal with the either Reason 1, or Reason 2.
Again, Have you thought about taking on a 1st year apprentice?
Just remember, you were at some stage either someones Reason 1, or their Reason 2.
Mike
I have a vacancy for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice
So many people in various trades want to hire 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices.
Why? thats easy, because they are productive now, and the business owner can charge for the work they produce now.
Problem: A 1st year apprentice takes time (and therefore money) to teach them the skills of the trade to a point where they produce chargable work.
Reason 1: A lot (not all, but a lot) of kids out of school lack initiative, heck, they even need to be told "If you're not busy, at least make it look like you're busy. Pick up a broom and sweep a clean floor if you have nothing else to do". They need someone to "hold their hand" whilst they learn (at least for the 1st year)
Reason 2: By the time these people develop this initiative, and be more useful (if not chargable) around the workplace, they are over 21 and need to be paid an adult wage, which costs the owner of the business more.
So, as to the trade shortage, who is at fault?
Is it that people no longer want to work in a trade area?
Or
Is it that business owners no longer wish to hire 1st year apprentices? (they just want to poach them from other businesses who have given them their initial start)
I believe that in a majority of cases that it is the later. Business owners need to deal with the either Reason 1, or Reason 2.
Again, Have you thought about taking on a 1st year apprentice?
Just remember, you were at some stage either someones Reason 1, or their Reason 2.
Mike
Thread Starter
Mike
I hear you loud and clear. No one is more aware of the trade skills shortage or trying to address the problem than me.
I already employ 149 full time apprentices; 15 part time apprentices; 32 School Based apprentices and 111 trainees.
There are already full time first year apprentices in the work place. The work place is unable to efficiently provide effective trade supervision for a further first year apprentice.
On this occasion I am seeking a 2nd to 4th Year Aeroskills apprentice and appalled at the lack of interest and long term impact on Australia's capacity and ability to maintain its current aircraft fleet.
It may surprise you that the greatest growth sector in new Australian apprenticeships is in mature age Apprenticeships. Most trade employers are now paying over Award payments to apprentices; they recognise that apprentice wages are an investment in the future prosperity of their own business.
You probably missed Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year. Many employers are exascerbated with the lack of committment in todays Gen Y.
I hear you loud and clear. No one is more aware of the trade skills shortage or trying to address the problem than me.
I already employ 149 full time apprentices; 15 part time apprentices; 32 School Based apprentices and 111 trainees.
There are already full time first year apprentices in the work place. The work place is unable to efficiently provide effective trade supervision for a further first year apprentice.
On this occasion I am seeking a 2nd to 4th Year Aeroskills apprentice and appalled at the lack of interest and long term impact on Australia's capacity and ability to maintain its current aircraft fleet.
"...they are over 21 and need to be paid an adult wage..."
You probably missed Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year. Many employers are exascerbated with the lack of committment in todays Gen Y.
Last edited by Torres; 9th Jun 2011 at 00:56.
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It's hard to pull a 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentice from anywhere; regardless of trade. Apprentices often like to stick with their original employer unless they are unhappy and without a large increase in salary and a desire to move to CQ I can see that many might not be interested. Understood that it's difficult to lose the apprentice when the shoe is on the other foot too.
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Reason 3: The national cancelation rate of first year apprentices is around 60% to 70% and diminishes as the apprentice progresses through 2nd, 3rd and 4th year.
Obviously with 307 apprentices/trainees on your books, you know more about the trade skills shortage and apprenticeship cancellations than I do.
Many employers are exascerbated with the lack of committment in todays Gen Y.
Thread Starter
Yes Mike, you are correct. But the tide is turning and those employers not committed to trade training and acceptable practices are unable to attract apprentice and qualified trade labour.
Our cancellation rate is still around 37% with the usual reasons for cancellation being:
"My girl friend is leaving town....",
"I want to go to the Mines....",
"My mates are all now in Brisbane....",
"The work is too hard......",
"I have a job on better money and flex hours at McDonalds/KFC/etc....."
There are many problems in our apprenticeship system, none more acute than here in rural Australia.
Our cancellation rate is still around 37% with the usual reasons for cancellation being:
"My girl friend is leaving town....",
"I want to go to the Mines....",
"My mates are all now in Brisbane....",
"The work is too hard......",
"I have a job on better money and flex hours at McDonalds/KFC/etc....."
There are many problems in our apprenticeship system, none more acute than here in rural Australia.
Why would you want to become an aircraft engineer anyway?
Normally anti-sociable hours, poor money to start with, hours of study for different licences, responsibility of signing of work on something that will carry pasengers in a hostile environment, being told to do dodgy repairs, putting up with dim witted aircraft owners that want everything done at mates rates but will take his Mercedes/BMW to the local dealership and pay $100 plus for labour.
And you wonder why people go and work in mines.
Normally anti-sociable hours, poor money to start with, hours of study for different licences, responsibility of signing of work on something that will carry pasengers in a hostile environment, being told to do dodgy repairs, putting up with dim witted aircraft owners that want everything done at mates rates but will take his Mercedes/BMW to the local dealership and pay $100 plus for labour.
And you wonder why people go and work in mines.
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Yep exactly what Charlie said.
When I have kids there is no f
ing way I'm going to let them go anywhere near an aircraft trade. Especially now the new dodgy B1/B2 system is here.
When I have kids there is no f
ing way I'm going to let them go anywhere near an aircraft trade. Especially now the new dodgy B1/B2 system is here.
Aircraft engineers are the most underpaid more buggers in the world, in my humble opinion, especially with CASA breathing down your neck and the the Australian legal system.
Have you tried making your company known at Aviation Australia? Quite a few of the apprentices I have worked with completed a pre vocational course there to better their chances at an apprenticeship....
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Aircraft engineers are the most underpaid more buggers in the world, in my humble opinion, especially with CASA breathing down your neck and the the Australian legal system.
HP is paying in the order of AU$75,000 as base pay for dual airframe engine licence.
Helicopter engineers are being paid 80,000 to 100,000 on shore and up to 140,000 offshore on tour basis.
CASA Australia is only doing it's job, certify for the work correctly and you will be left alone.
I haven't had dealings with Aust courts over maintenance matters, what is your experience that makes you fear them?
Cheers
BH
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My question is to the original poster who seems to have enough 1st year apprentices but cant seem to be able to hire 2nd to 4th year apprentices. Why dont you train your 1st years and grow them to second, third & fourth year apprentices?
I have some experience in this area and what I am hearing is that many first year apprentices quit because of the way they are treated, especially in GA. Many GA companies hire apprentices purely as cheap labour, without really considering that they are required to train these apprentices. By the way, that's why they get paid lower wages, as they are, in a sense paying for their training. If you want to hire someone to clean up after the LAMEs and do general work around the hangar, hire a TA or hangar rat and pay the going rate, which is much more that an apprentice. While I understand and don't disagree with the concept of "paying your dues", training must still be acomplished under the tutelage of an experienced LAME. This often just does not happen, many LAMEs have the attitude of "I learned the hard way, you must too". This attitude is quite prevalent today. Business pressures also tend to push training into the category of, I just don't have time for it.
Taking on an apprentice requires a company to commit to a contract of training. Many companies forget this almost immediatly. I have had many apprentices, former apprentices and LAMEs confirm these things to me. If you are going to take on an apprentice, make sure you have the resources to do it. Identify a LAME or LAMEs who "desire" to pass on their knowledge and experience to the apprentice, dont throw them to the grumpy old farts who dont want them anyway.
I understand fully why it's hard to find 2nd to 4th year apprentices willing to join a company. If they made it past their first year and still like it they will stay where they are. If they dont stay with that company then the old line of "once bitten, twice shy" seems the appropriate reason.
As to the comment about Training institute graduates being no better than the average 1st year "off the street" apprentice, you are missing the point. These graduates have been given all the theory of a 4 year apprenticeship, but very little in the way of practical experience. While they may seem no better than the "off the street" version at first, I will venture to say that by the end of the graduates' first year of their apprenticeship, he/she is much more capable than the off the street apprentice at the end of their first year. This is because they have most of theory knowledge already and dont have to be released for training for up to 10 weeks a year, Many of the so called "traditional" apprentices came back from tech forgeting their hand skills and have missed a lot of the continuity that the hangar provides. The other obvious advantage is the company doesn't have to pay the apprentice while he/she is non productive at school. Again I constantly hear the harp of the "old fart LAME's" thats not the way I did it, so it's no good! Get over it! This is the way it's being done more and more now.
Bottom line, if you want good 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices, invest time and effort into your 1st year apprentices.
I have some experience in this area and what I am hearing is that many first year apprentices quit because of the way they are treated, especially in GA. Many GA companies hire apprentices purely as cheap labour, without really considering that they are required to train these apprentices. By the way, that's why they get paid lower wages, as they are, in a sense paying for their training. If you want to hire someone to clean up after the LAMEs and do general work around the hangar, hire a TA or hangar rat and pay the going rate, which is much more that an apprentice. While I understand and don't disagree with the concept of "paying your dues", training must still be acomplished under the tutelage of an experienced LAME. This often just does not happen, many LAMEs have the attitude of "I learned the hard way, you must too". This attitude is quite prevalent today. Business pressures also tend to push training into the category of, I just don't have time for it.
Taking on an apprentice requires a company to commit to a contract of training. Many companies forget this almost immediatly. I have had many apprentices, former apprentices and LAMEs confirm these things to me. If you are going to take on an apprentice, make sure you have the resources to do it. Identify a LAME or LAMEs who "desire" to pass on their knowledge and experience to the apprentice, dont throw them to the grumpy old farts who dont want them anyway.
I understand fully why it's hard to find 2nd to 4th year apprentices willing to join a company. If they made it past their first year and still like it they will stay where they are. If they dont stay with that company then the old line of "once bitten, twice shy" seems the appropriate reason.
As to the comment about Training institute graduates being no better than the average 1st year "off the street" apprentice, you are missing the point. These graduates have been given all the theory of a 4 year apprenticeship, but very little in the way of practical experience. While they may seem no better than the "off the street" version at first, I will venture to say that by the end of the graduates' first year of their apprenticeship, he/she is much more capable than the off the street apprentice at the end of their first year. This is because they have most of theory knowledge already and dont have to be released for training for up to 10 weeks a year, Many of the so called "traditional" apprentices came back from tech forgeting their hand skills and have missed a lot of the continuity that the hangar provides. The other obvious advantage is the company doesn't have to pay the apprentice while he/she is non productive at school. Again I constantly hear the harp of the "old fart LAME's" thats not the way I did it, so it's no good! Get over it! This is the way it's being done more and more now.
Bottom line, if you want good 2nd, 3rd or 4th year apprentices, invest time and effort into your 1st year apprentices.
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Sidesaddle, refer to post #6 by Torres - he explains why they keep leaving.
37% is probably not that bad. Universities are probably worse and many professional white collar worker jobs are around 15-30% per year for what I do, not for 4 years, thats per year...
37% is probably not that bad. Universities are probably worse and many professional white collar worker jobs are around 15-30% per year for what I do, not for 4 years, thats per year...
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HP is paying in the order of AU$75,000 as base pay for dual airframe engine licence.
Helicopter engineers are being paid 80,000 to 100,000 on shore and up to 140,000 offshore on tour basis.
Helicopter engineers are being paid 80,000 to 100,000 on shore and up to 140,000 offshore on tour basis.
If I was a mining recruiter I would be down at my local airport poaching guys . Saying to them here is a job with more pay , better roster , better conditions, we feed you on site, we house you on site, little stress and no threat of litigation hanging over you.
Who are the fools here ?
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refer to post #6 by Torres - he explains why they keep leaving
I know of several cases in the last couple of years where GA operators lost their apprentices because they treated the apprentice with disdain and refused to invest in their training. The apprentice told the operator the "job is not for them" but told others the real reason. Then the operators would say when asked why the apprentice left, that they were "useless" or "unsuited" to aviation. It's like anything else you invest in, take care of them and they will earn you money. Treat them badly, you'll lose them, whether the investment be aircraft, tools or apprentices and tradesmen.
It's time many companies face reality, they are often the problem. Sorry if I've sugar coated it!
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SideSaddle, you have hit the nail on the head!! 
In my working career (aviation and non-aviation) I myself have worked for a number of employers, some great, some good and some bad. Funnily enough (or is that Unfortunately enough) the bosses that that have been the the biggestholes and who treat their employees (most employees, not only me), with disrespect, are those in the ga aviation sector. They, the holes, are out to make a dollar no matter who gets in their way. Crikey, they would even sell their own mothers into illegal prostitution in some third-world back water if they could make a few bucks!
That being said, some of the nicest people in the world that I have met are involved in aviation.
In my working career (aviation and non-aviation) I myself have worked for a number of employers, some great, some good and some bad. Funnily enough (or is that Unfortunately enough) the bosses that that have been the the biggest
holes and who treat their employees (most employees, not only me), with disrespect, are those in the ga aviation sector. They, the holes, are out to make a dollar no matter who gets in their way. Crikey, they would even sell their own mothers into illegal prostitution in some third-world back water if they could make a few bucks!That being said, some of the nicest people in the world that I have met are involved in aviation.
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Hasherufc
you are correct the mining industry pays well above the odds.
This is not the issue that Torres is speaking about.
The offer of 75k was from HP Cairns but was less than Ican earn as a contractor.
At this time there is a dearth of LAMEs in the regional and outback areas, good for those of us that contract in those areas.
Cheers
BH
you are correct the mining industry pays well above the odds.
This is not the issue that Torres is speaking about.
The offer of 75k was from HP Cairns but was less than Ican earn as a contractor.
At this time there is a dearth of LAMEs in the regional and outback areas, good for those of us that contract in those areas.
Cheers
BH
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if i had it to do over again i would get a lobotomy and stay away from this business,
i counsel all i know to stay away from it
i work nights, i get no thanks or recognition for my hard work/skill and knowledge and most nights i come home dirty and stinking, i got mates who fix computers and other software types that stay clean and make more money
too bad i love what i do
i counsel all i know to stay away from it
i work nights, i get no thanks or recognition for my hard work/skill and knowledge and most nights i come home dirty and stinking, i got mates who fix computers and other software types that stay clean and make more money
too bad i love what i do
I am a "grumpy old fart LAME" working in Oz and the rest of the world doing contracts. While there is a shortage of LAME'S I will continue to have work offered, plus I have a work ethic which is sadly lacking in a lot of young people I have met in aviation; this includes engineers and pilots.
I have a wealth of knowlege to impart and sadly I have met very few AME'S or apprentices who wish to be a custodian of that knowlege.
The other point is that I will actively discourage anybody coming into the industry due to the fact that a LAME must be a criminal; all the penalty points written into the regulations mean that they must be so.
CASA are a joke, as are the licencing regulations; still not finished after 20+ years.
The aircraft maintenance industry is a sad shell of it's former self; I have enjoyed it but now the enjoyment is rapidly going south and now I am semi retired. This means I can pick the jobs I want and leave the rest, a luxury denied to many still in the industry due low wages and family, or other comitments.
I have a wealth of knowlege to impart and sadly I have met very few AME'S or apprentices who wish to be a custodian of that knowlege.
The other point is that I will actively discourage anybody coming into the industry due to the fact that a LAME must be a criminal; all the penalty points written into the regulations mean that they must be so.
CASA are a joke, as are the licencing regulations; still not finished after 20+ years.
The aircraft maintenance industry is a sad shell of it's former self; I have enjoyed it but now the enjoyment is rapidly going south and now I am semi retired. This means I can pick the jobs I want and leave the rest, a luxury denied to many still in the industry due low wages and family, or other comitments.
