Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree
 

Hi just wanted to know if anyone could help
I am a year 12 student in NSW and I just wanted to know which Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree is the best out of:
1. UNSW
2. Griffith
3. Swinburne
And also which has the best chance of getting accepted into the Qantas/Qantas link cadet programs or any other Australian airlines cadet program.
Cheers Will

Suggest you do a search
 

These are all frequent questions

I think the rankings put out by the sort of people who do that thing put Swinburne first, but really, it doesn't matter.

The best for you? UNSW stay at home, save your money.

Should you do a degree? Should you do an aviation degree? It's been discussed 1,000 times here and it's down to personal preference and life goals.

Best chance of getting into QF? None, academic qualifications are mostly just a tick in the box to get your resume to the next stage.

If QF exists in its' current form in the forseeable future?

I can only speak for UNSW but if you attend one of their information sessions, they do seem to emphasise that their graduates wind up in the CX cadet program, RAAF and Qantas Link.

I have three friends who are doing the course and they are enjoying it. I would personally still stay away from the aviation degree though, which I know has been discussed quite a lot. Don't get me wrong though, I would say that in the future, having a degree will be important.

Also, I think limiting your scope to just cadet programs isn't the best of ideas. You also have to take into account your long term goals and thinking about which degree will get you into a cadet program probably isn't the best way to go. I'll use myself as an example. I got accepted into ADFA as a RAAF Pilot last year for 2011, but with the degrees they offered, it didn't align with my long term goals. Sure, you may want to stay in aviation for the rest of your life, but considering the state in which Qantas is, it's probably best to have some kind of degree non-aviation related.

This is just my opinion though. Go with whatever you want to pursue.

Get a trade, don't waste your time on an aviation degree. You can still be an airline pilot without one.

Agree with Mr Hat. Get a trade or some other skilled job first and do a pilots course as a side hobby at first. Then if it all turns to sh#* you still have something worth while to make a living at.
Why anyone would need a "degree" for what is essentially a blue collar job is beyond me.

Thanks everyone for the advice
Will
:ok:

Gonna have to disagree with the above 2 posters.

Whilst its true you dont actually need a degree, it can help and in the next few years (with Aust taking on from Americas lead where the vast majority of airline pilots have degrees and were scouted from colleges). Plus a 3 year course versus 1.5-2 years which is realistically what it takes to go from 0 to FATPL MECIR CPL or CPL/FIR is not a huge difference when your that young.

It also provides a good backup- people say theres nothing in an aviation degree- I disagree, if you do a commerce degree and you hate it there will be nothing worse. Also, key management roles plus senior pilot roles such as Check and Training, Chief Pilot, etc are filled in a large part by those with degrees as it just adds to your experience. In terms of a backup as I said, it shows you have the motivation to get through a course which is challenging and maintain a good balance between flying and the academic side of things. With the amount of management and business related courses in a Bachelor of Aviation degree nowadays you are well equipped to go into a business type field, or even gain say a commerce degree in a much shorter period of time if the unthinkable happens and you lose your medical.

Just my 0.02c , take it as you will! :)

Dunno about CX and QL, but the RAAF do not give a flying fcuk about any of these degrees. Don't waste your time and money if that's the way you want to go.

Of course they are going to say that!! They aren't about to advertise that their students are living in a donger in Elcho Island flying a 210 after spending $150 000 at their university now are they!!:hmm:

I went to one of these things nearly 20 years ago now, back then they were telling everyone that your first job after completing a UNSW degree was in a regional airline.....which was bollocks as you needed about 5000 hours to even apply!! Be careful they aren't claiming foreign nationals who study in Australia and get a walkup start at their national carrier in those numbers too.

So be wary what a university tells you. If one allumni gets into an airline they claim it, despite the rest battling it out in GA or quitting.

Right now I would be questioning aviation as a career at all. The Labor/Green government looks hell bent on bringing in a Carbon Tax which I think will be the beginning of the end of Aviation.

Do another degree and if things look better in a few years then get into flying.

As far as I am aware UNSW is the only Uni that runs its own flying school. This means that the flying and academic studies are better coordinated and the Uni can ensure that the flying school standards are maintained at a high level.

ignore what the cynics are saying.

A degree sets you apart as a professional and is pretty much a pre-requisite for a long term career at the airlines.

Also, don't underestimate the benefits of networking at places like Swinburne which can be the catalyst for entry into the airlines.

I'm a long-term private pilot who flies out of Moorabbin. I have seen many young pilots work their way up the GA ladder into the the airlines.

I have also seen many Swinburne graduates going into the airlines quite young. A young Swinburne graduate helped with the instructing for my NVFR rating. One day he was missing from YMMB. After a short stint instructing he landed a job with Virgin flying B777's internationally as an FO.

He always impressed me as being competent and professional, a very good instructor in spite of his young age. Some of this would have been natural ability, some training from Swinburne/GFS.

If I was 20 years younger I'd do an aviation degree. Great entrance to a great career.

Oh that old chessnut! Gotta say I heard that one at the uni open day 15 years ago. Feel like getting my Guns N Roses T shirt on for the occasion! Guess what it was just total spin!

I could have spent the 3 years and several thousand dollars getting myself a plan B. I got done like a dinner. Young and Naive I was. What you will find as time passes by is that these opportunities get smaller and smaller with future Mrs hamiltonw and the rug rat talk and a 650k mortgage even if you wanted to go and get a back you won't be able to. Don't be like me: painted into a corner, at the mercy of the next big HR managers idea (deep ****). Oh well too late fingers crossed.

How many times was I asked about the degree for flying roles in 15 years? Not once. Sorry guys I'm not bagging education I'm saying do it on line whilst in GA or in an airline. Don't waste crucial time in your late teens and early twenties getting a "nice to have". Set your foundation at the start: get a trade my friend.

A prerequisite? This is total rubbish.

Gotta agree with a couple of posters in here, an aviation degree means zip at the end of the day.But having said that those that do the hiring are now these days guys/gals who have degrees themselves & still think that a degree is needed to fly a plane which most know is a myth, tick the box as has been said is all that's it's worth:-)

A trade or a skill outside of aviation as a back up is a GOOD idea. No one should these days put all their eggs into the aviation basket as it's full of egg sized holes these days.
It was once a life long great career where 'IF' you got into the airlines you had a job for life & where carried out in a pine box at retirement, now more like a straight jacket would be yr preferred exit medium !:E




Wmk2

A very important consideration is one's gameplan if it all falls in a heap due medical, not getting that break into whatever flying avenue one's heart is set on, etc....

Be very investigative regarding what your degree might open for you.

I have colleagues who lecture in one aviation degree program and those who do that program will get a good grounding in many areas relevant to airline operations etc.

However, if one ends up out of flying, consider very seriously where one might go in such an event.

Vocational degrees, providing one has acquired some experience in the field while flying, may offer a better lifeline than an aviation degree. Specifically, I would suggest investigating law, commerce, economics, engineering (might be a bit difficult to get any useful part time work), medicine etc.

On the other hand, a trade is probably a whole lot more flexible and may be easier to get part time work to get some runs on the board. Trades may offer some flexibility for part time work in retirement if the superannuation didn't work out all that well.

A degree sets you apart as a professional and is pretty much a pre-requisite for a long term career at the airlines.

I think the other folk, above, have scotched such self-serving tripe as arrant nonsense. I can reflect on having read aero engineering - good fun, had a ball at uni with more than a few headaches, and it's provided me with a very interesting career and good money - but, in terms of absolute difficulty to get a bit of paper at the end of the study, the SCPL/ATPL exams were the harder sequence to run albeit they can be done in far less time and the output is far less rigorous in terms of knowledge skillset.

If your argument is that a degree impresses along the lines of demonstrating that one can study and pass exams, I suggest you think again. Me, I dips me lid to those who have slogged through ATPL subjects whilst working full time. Indeed, I spent some years lecturing in such things and I have nothing but admiration for some folk who, in spite of considerable odds, slogged through and ended up in their preferred lines of flying endeavour.

Well............When you said he was missing from Moorabbin I thought you were going to say he was found in DFO buying silvo for his wings? Good on him eh!

I have a son in year 11 who wants to fly for the airlines. My strong recommendation to him is Swinburne or RMIT.

For years I used to hire Decathlons from GFS and over that time saw many Swinburne graduates going into the airlines.

If he wants to change careers in 20 years time, his bachelors degree in aviation would still be a good basis for post-graduate study in another area.

Even without the career benefits of a degree, I'd still recommend going to uni. Education for the sake of education has a lot of virtue.

I would extremely doubt that one would study medicine for five to seven years with the intention of keeping it as a back up.

that one would study medicine for five to seven years with the intention of keeping it as a back up.

One well-known chap in Melbourne (certainly would have to be retired now - haven't spoken with him for quite a few years) ..

(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),

(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,

(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop

all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.

One of the PPRuNe moderators combines both medical practice and professional flying. I venture to guess that there will be others in the sandpit as well.


As with any of the vocational degrees, they become very stale, very quickly if one doesn't work in the field along the way - none of them really fit the idea of being kept in reserve for a feared event years down the track. I see no reason why most can't be combined with flying. For instance, I ran a very active aviation engineering consultancy activity in parallel with airline flying.

I guess that similar observations could be made regarding, at least, some trades which require licences ?

Good point JT!

The one benefit of doing an aviation degree, then working in aviation is you are keeping the degree current by working in the field. If you do a psych degree as a back up that's fine but in ten years time when you are over aviation and looking to get back into it your degree will be almost worthless.

As someone above said, education can be an end in itself and university life is a lot of fun, you make lots of new friends and have some great times. You will be slogging it out up north for a number of years, nothing wrong with taking a year or two extra to enjoy being young and responsibility free!

I'd personally recommend uni of some sort (aviation, commerce, arts, science etc. as long as it interests you) but it really doesn't matter. That is purely based on what I wanted to experience in life.

I did the Griffith uni Ba Avn. I enjoyed it, as others have said, each degree will have its strengths and weaknesses. Having done the degree and having worked in GA I can say that it will not help you get your first few jobs. It did however recently get me an interview with a large airline overseas

I did the degree because I was encouraged by my parents. I found that uni life was pretty cruisy and I made some great friends. After graduating I became interested in post grad study and I am now working towards a PhD with UNSW.

If you want a well rounded education and the proven ability to think critically, go with a degree and take a part time job (I went with security and crowd control).

If you want money on the side and a fall back option, go with a trade; or

If you have the cash, just get your CPL ASAP and get that first job...

That being said, most employers look at flight experience, whether you can sell yourself in an interview and whether or not get a good reference from your last employer. That is how I got every job I've had.

My experience is mainly at Moorabbin, where I have hired a lot of planes from GFS/Oxford.

Looking back, I get a very favorable impression of the people who have been thru Swinburne/Oxford.

Can't comment on RMIT or other places because havn't had much to do with the.

Possibly the Swinburne/Oxford pilots would have turned out well anyway, but I'm impressed. Certainly the "airline pilot sausage factory" holds water, but that's what both the pilots and airlines want.

My strategy is for my son to finish his PPL in my plane before he hopefully starts at uni, and to use my plane as far as possible for training to reduce the costs.

Aviation degrees are a fantastic idea and generally seems to have been well executed.

I think you may have misunderstood, but my apologies if you haven't. But as far as I'm aware, there is no medical degree program, and by that I mean, that awards one with a MBBS, that is offered part-time. Sure, you can read every book in the world related to medicine, but it doesn't admit the individual for an internship which is what all medical practictioners must complete.

I stand to be corrected, but I myself only graduated from year twelve last year with an offer to UNSW's MBBS program. Unless anything significant has changed since then, I don't think medicine would be a good choice if flying is what one wanted to do full-time IMHO. However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair.

Thanks again everyone, from what I have seen and researched UNSW looks like a good option as it has its own flying school and its local so that will being costs down.

Just another question does anyone know if Virgin Australia has any from of cadet program?

Thanks again Will
:ok:

there is no medical degree program, and by that I mean, that awards one with a MBBS, that is offered part-time

Back in the bad old days, one could structure one's flying to provide an essentially fulltime availability for other work, including training - might have affected the sleep a little but it certainly was possible.

The easier approach is to do the training fulltime prior to running with the flying job. Such was my strategy and, indeed, I just missed out on completing the BSc/BE double in parallel with engineering (without doing the extra year) as well as completing the bulk of my flying training on weekends. Mind you, back in those days, we averaged one or two nights a week working straight through without any sleep .. just par for the course, as it were. The Arts folk had a more relaxing life but that's the way things were and, I suppose, engineering is not all that much different these days ?

Actually, I originally intended to enrol in medicine but tossed that idea away over coffee on the day and went for aero .. I probably would have made a dreadful medico anyway.

However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair

Again, in the bad old days, more than a few airline pilots opted for professional flying on a recreational basis.

Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?

Main point is that some have combined medicine and professional flying with some success so the option remains valid.

In any case, medicine is but only but one of a number of vocational courses to which the budding pilot might look. The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.

I might note that those of us in '89 with a second string to the bow suffered, in the main, far less stress than many of our flying-only colleagues.

I won't doubt for a second that what you said is true, buthe thing is, the author wants to be a cadet for an airline. Unless the cadet has flexibility in their work arrangements, then I can't see why that couldn't happen today. Most cadet programs are now full-time commitments and because there are no part-time MBBS degrees available, it just isn't possible.

I'm not sure how different it is today but combined engineering students do on average 22-28 hours a week and their degree goes for 5.5 years.

Again, the author wants to become a cadet. I think our misinterpretation is coming down to our definition of professionally - indeed, getting paid to fly would be defined as 'professionally' (instructing, sight-seeing etc), but I was referring more to pilots in airlines, given that this is what the author is alluding to.

For those who do recreational flying, what I meant by that was those who maybe go down to their local airfield and just fly around for their own amusement.

Indeed, if again by professional you mean by those who get paid, then yes. There is no reason why the option isn't valid. But again, this is out of context with what the author is seeking. I think you would be VERY hard pressed to find a pilot in an airline with a MBBS, who practices as a doctor when he/she isn't flying.

Having a back up degree is important because you never know what could happen to your health. By having that back up, it's pretty much an insurance policy. But be mindful of what you pick as your back-up.

Anyway, I think this has been taken a bit too far off-topic now. However...

Quote:

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The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.

---

Guys you study medicine because you want to be a doctor. I would suggest that you will be told to 'come back when you're serious' if you told them at the entrance interview that medicine was only a backup plan to being an airline pilot.....

jieunni .. I guess, in the time honoured tradition, we shall have to agree to disagree on the odd point or two.

The consideration is not medicine, per se .. rather something to use as a marketable backup to the flying... doesn't really matter what arena so long as it's marketable and, preferably, desirable for the individual.

Looking back, I have had a ball playing engineers .. but I might have done far better, in all probability, with a trade. For instance, a cousin, of similar age, retired from fulltime work running an electrical contracting business at age 55 and has since played grey nomads in a large trailer van with more funds (from the sale) than I have ... oh well .. win some, lose some, I guess.


combined engineering students do on average 22-28 hours a week

things certainly have changed .. that was our workload through until around Tuesday evening ... and we had to find room for drinking in our leisure time.

When I went to university, I used to get up half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work 29 hours a day and when I got home our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves!

And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe ya!

It seems to me that you need to decide which career path will hold precedence over the other.

I've always followed my ag. science path, and the flying became the 'hobby' if you like. It's worked well for me, as a travelling consultant - the flying became the means to travel. Nowdays I instruct a little more often as I've retired from most science jobs. And, I'll stay with it until the med1 expires. After 48 years and near 12k hours in my 2nd profession - I can definitely say this way... works.

Several others fellow scientists in Oz have also been able to steadily improve their flying quals - without losing anything in career path #1. The others I know of are all now ATPL/CIR, or CFI/Gr1 and still enjoying their flying.

I'd be surprised if there aren't many more economists, commerce,business,engineers, pharmacists out in GA/RAA land -enjoying their 2nd career, and filling a part time niche.

happy days,

Newcastle Uni
 

hamiltonw old mate, if you live in Newcastle try your local uni :ok:

Bachelor of Science (Aviation) / Program Handbook / The University of Newcastle, Australia

I have studied at 3 universities in Australia (under-grad. and post-grad.) and have found them to be the best. PM if you like.

Do your degree as you are young and have time on your side. It will give you an understanding on how to analyse and critique information in a valid manner. Employers and the people you will work with like this style ;)

Airlines (including where I work) are working towards employing more cadets with good academic qualifications and suitability to successfully train airline pilots in a procedural environment. Uni degrees help.

Companies all around the world (Aviation and otherwise) like employing aussies as they are educated and generally down to earth.

Good luck :ok:

However you look at it, if you want a job in an airline, an Aviation degree will put you further up in the queue.

4greens, but how far?
1 year of CPL + 2-3 years of charter flying

Or

3-4 years of uni with CPL included, then you are 2-3 years behind the one without the degree in terms of experience..

That may be the case in the UK but it means nothing in Australia. Personally, as a professional pilot, I couldn't imagine anything worse than working in another field of aviation where I didn't fly. There are loads of good uni's with related courses that will be recognised by other sectors. The aviation degree's may help you with a post grad but from my understanding don't hold much credit and certainly don't hold their weight outside of aviation. You must research this before you apply.

Will,
There is alot to be said for going local. Your whole support network is available to you during the course - that is unless you can be convinced that one uni is far far better than the rest.

As for whether or not to do a degree, I think what DominicYPGV said sums it up. You will be surprised at where it will be usefull in the future. I did a Business Degree and am now a full time pilot. The understandings I gained through the degree apply equally well to any job, the same will apply to your studies in an aviation degree - the topics covered are quite diverse, just referenced to aviation.

Also, I have yet to read anyone who has done the degree say it was a total waste of time.

Personally I think you are heading in the right direction for a career in aviation.

Good luck

I have a degree in aviation.

If my airline closed tomorrow what would I be qualified to do? Beg for a flying job with 1000 other pilots at the opposition or beg for a office job making 40k in an airline? Great.

If I had a trade I'd have multiple options available to me.

Another issue. Sometimes I have a lot of time off.. actually its quite often. If I had a trade I could be running a business on the side or picking up odd jobs here and there. I could also do most of the work at home or in my investment properties.

The difference between the yays vs the nays is that the nays don't have anything to sell. How do you know some of the posters here aren't involved in education with ulterior motives?

You choose. I did the degree, did the training with bells whistles did the GA did the turbo props, did the crap jet job now I have a good jet job. 15 years of right moves and mistakes. A degree before getting a job was one of the mistakes.

Get the trade do the training get a flying job then do the degree.

It's not that big a jump from aviation to IT. Do an aviation degree, then maybe some post grad IT studies.

Later, when flying for the airlines with days off, do IT consulting for extra bucks.

Main thing is to get an initial bachelors degree, it's easy from there.

Although Mr. Hat is 10 - 15 years ahead of myself and from what I can tell most of the posters here, and is therefore well worth a listen, everyone is different.

I could think of nothing worse than working a trade (maybe AME/LAME but not plumbing etc.) sorry. It's not for me.

I was talking to a guy who transferred out of my degree at the end of our first year to do construction management he got one and a half semesters of subjects knocked off his degree from RPL. Not bad and a lot more than I expected!

So maybe the Aviation degree is more useful than we think? As has been said though any qualification is only useful if you are using it. If you get a teaching degree, work in aviation for 10 years and decide you are over it, you will have to do a decent bit of training to make use of that teaching degree.

I'm 10 - 15 years behind Mr. Hat, maybe I will come to his realisation but personally for me and at the current state of affairs I am happy with where I am.