It's entertaining to say the least to see some of the responses. At no time have I said that education was a waste of time nor do I believe this to be the case. I've had more than one career and I've used my degree. If you want to talk about turbulent times I'll send you some nice photos and I'll close that case off pretty quickly let me give you the red hot tip! People on here seem to be selecting parts of my argument yet ignoring others to justify their own.

For the last time.

1. I'm not Anti Education.
2. I am Pro timing education to get maximum bang for buck (get bum on seat then do the degree claim the deduction).
3. I do believe there are better plan B's than a degree in Aviation for a pilot.
4. Without the detail, I've got a rough idea about losing my career at short notice and having to find a plan B or starve.
5. I'm just here to offer newbies an alternative to the hard sell business of university open days. They will make their own choices.

As for my career? Well, all I can do is pass my sims and do the best job I can. Do I expect my employer to be open forever? Do not know. Do I think I might have to retrain one day to do something else? Possibly. Do I wish I had a trade? You bet.

Mr. Hat,

Fee-Help is only available as part of a post-graduate course from universities. What uni's do is enrol you in a bachelor and some sort of graduate certificate. Hecs for the bachelor which covers theory and fee-help for the practical stuff in the certificate.

It can only be accessed at unis at the moment (and is one of the reasons they can charge the fees they do). The senate inquiry did look into the equality and anti-competitiveness of this, but it got a bit lost under the Jetstar/CASA stuff, hopefully not forgotten as it is unfair and inflating flying training prices.

Mr Hat,

Whilst I appreciate your input and experience I think I'n the end it is a decision on personal preference. the course, the people I've met, been able to network with , being I'n the AUSAR hq I'n CBR during the airvan accident I'n flinders are experiences I can't say my friends who didn't do the degree have had.

If you want to do a relative comparison- out of those who went the traditional route and compare those who did the flying school method almost all took 1.5-2 yrs for cpl mecir/fir and atpl.. I've completed these I'n 2 years and will have my degree so really it is a VERY small difference. These guys I refer to - 3/10 have jobs I'n the aviation industry and out of those 3 they have logged around 300-400 hours I'n work - which really isn't that big a difference considering how soon I finish.



End rant- I'n short my perspective is from someone who's done the degree recently , and I think times are changing rapidly compared to when other posters started out. Plus tell me what Asian carrier, us and even European don't want a degree .. Most do, and they value an aviation one for the knowledge it gives you. When it hits the fan in this country and I consider my options if another 89' like they're talking about happens . I'll be glad knowing I meet the degree entry requirements opening up many options I wouldn't of had before even with flying experience.

Hullo Chaps,

Dear oh dear, haven't we gotten ourselves into a twist over this subject again. Like clockwork it seems, every 2-3 months, this old chestnut pops it's head up and all the usual suspects regurgitate the same old arguments ad nauseum.

The hipocrisy is charming also, I do love the statement that:

Ignoring the slander contained in that paragraph, this circling the drain style descent really kicked off in earnest when Airline hopefuls started coughing up for the type rating. Sound familiar Hat old boy? But the PPRuNe community thanks you in earnest for the sacrifice of your Friday night to give advice.

Do I have a degree you ask? Why yes. Is it aviation? Why yes it is. Did it help? Most Certainly. Would I have had the time or inclination during the last 6 years of flying to complete any degree by correpsondence? Certainly not.

Did my degree assist me in my current and previous employment? Unequivocally yes. Now if you'll excuse me, I must get back to working for one of Mr Hat's 'forget the rest' employers. Actually, no, I don't work weekends. Quite good for a 125k/500hrs a year job.

Straight home and don't spare the horses.

This did seem contradictory in Mr. Hat's post i.e. he referred to his "Straight 7's" friend not having the "steam" to pursue a degree and Mr. Hat's argument that a degree/trade should be attained during one's aviation career.

Yep righto. I'll stop wasting readers time with my experiences. I made mistakes, was just trying to share them to maybe help someone in their journey.

the degree of a Degree
 

There are some unique aspects to some aviation degrees that are not found in commerce/business degrees, science degrees, aero eng degrees etc.

These include: managing high international competition changes on a daily basis, schedule management and schedule disruption management, LCC approaches, very low returns on capital investment, predicting route RPKs, choosing fleets to optimise ASKs yet minimising aircraft types on the AOC, as well as safety issues (adoption of ICAO requirements) such as SMS, developing safety cultures, human actors and SOPs, fatigue, and how to develop and implement security systems for airlines and airports etc.

Only aviation Degrees can give you this material, although some Degrees have a greater degree of thoroughness than others. Some just tack on a couple of courses on HF and aviation economics and leave the majority of academic theory to delivering the legislated flying theory, while others have specific management degrees which cover all of the issues in the 2nd paragraph and more. Graduates with a wide and deep knowledge of aviation management are very employable.

All degrees build intellectual capability as well as providing some specialist knowledge. Intellectual challenges are best made in areas in which the individual has a genuine interest and curiosity, so if a degree is to be attempted it is best done in an area where the individual has an interest, and curiosity, because this is where he/she will best prosper in the workplace where this background is useful.

As an aside, those pilots who subscribe to the “don’t need to know much outside of the direct flying requirements” philosophy probably do the profession some damage, as well as being easier to manipulate by intelligent and well educated senior managers or CEOs. The better educated and informed the pilot community, and the higher level of professionalism that pilots show, the better the pilot community is able to defend jobs.

There are different degrees of quality and content depending on the Degree on offer. They are not all the same, so check out the details carefully.

End of rant; time for a nice red.

I suppose half of you lot think that collecting jet endorsements is a great idea as well?
You're only as good (and employable) as what you have been doing recently. A piece of paper in whatever field is useless unless you have stayed up on the game.
I have a trade, Engine/Airframe, and certainly don't kid myself into believing that if I lost my flying job that I could just take up where I left off.
Save your biccies girls. You can play the "what if" game all day.

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hatty hatty hatty.... You gotta chill out in your old age mate. When you need the pills, you already know who to call :E

It's pretty funny seeing lots of guys who are still doing their BAV degrees with sub 150hrs total time and 0.0 hrs working in the industry write on this thread like their opinion the gospel truth.

My $0.02. I'm in the industry, yeah. I've got a degree, yeah. Been in and out of aviation for a little over a decade so I can never be accused of rushing anything career wise. All I know is this:

I'm off away from friends and family looking for flying work. I'd hazard a guess that it's going to take me about 2-6 months before any flying comes along. Because of my degree in a field outside of aviation I get paid $60.82 an hour casual rate, I can get a job in ANY town I happen to be in by simply picking up the phone, and most importantly of all is that while I look for flying work I can literally pick my hours so that my work fits around trips out to the airport. This 2-6 months is going to be a doddle.

If you've got a B Aviation, what can you do in my place?

I've got two big regrets.

First, is that my timing is ****ehouse. Back in 2004 when things were tough I went back to uni, had the time of my life, and totally missed the short lived GA land of milk and honey in the 2006-7 period and only caught the tail end of it before the GFC came along. Timing is everything I suppose :ugh:

Second, is that I didn't stick with it when times were tough the first time around. Things were much different then, I had been at it for three years with promise after promise being broken in GA, I had no degree, and no skills outside of flying aircraft (even those were questionable :E). All my mates from that era that are still with us who were in the same boat as I was are flying jets on decent coin (because they don't work for that operator), or turboprops doing some of the most enjoyable flying in the world all the while loving what they do. I still wonder if I'd stuck with it for another three months if it would be me that cracked that first real charter job which would have lead me to the same position in life as those other blokes.

That said, do I regret having done a degree in a field completely removed from aviation? NO.

The way I see it is this -> Get your flying training done quickly so that you can pack up, head out bush and be first in line when that job comes. Stick with it otherwise you'll wind up at the back of the que. If you want more qualifications (which is in no way a bad thing) then get something you can use on those dark dark days when you realise that no matter how much flash looking paint it might have on the outside, beauty in the aviation industry is often only skin deep.

By doing a straight aviation degree, you might (and there is no evidence to prove so in Australia) be giving yourself a +1 on the resume, but you are limiting yourself to one industry which is notoriously cyclical, extraordinarily small, and in the process of cutting the terms and conditions of those that work in it all the way to the bone.

Sorry Seabreeze,

Aviation degrees take you only a little of the way into all these things, the subjects I found were great 'set the scene' things but really could have been gotten from reading a few books on each of the subjects.

What Hasselhof said.

PG

PS. I fly for an Aussie 'major' and I have degrees in aviation and another field.

Mr Hat is spot on!!
 

Mr Hat is spot on with all his posts. My son is one of the Airline Captains Mr Hat refers to without a Degree, more than likely the same age or younger than the FO's he fly's with in the B737NG he commands.

He doesn't hold it against those with Degrees, but reckons it makes virtually no difference when applying for an airline job, except those without Degrees are normally ahead when it comes to hours and experience.

I was involved in aviation, but have since retired before Aviation Degress were ever thought of. I did not assist my son in anyway in his chosen career. He worked his way into flying by working in mundane jobs to fund his flying lessons and MECIR. After working in GA for a few years, he manages to get a turbo job, folllowed by an initial charter jet job and finally to an airline job. He is now 36. Even when he was on the 'dole' for six months the money was spent on flying lessons.

In fact, when you talk to him, he feels sorry for those with Degrees who have now missed out on the opportunity for command for sometime within his airline. This, because he feels they started at the same time as he, but elected for teriary studies on a 'promise' they would be considered first by the airlines.

McG50.

A reasonable degree (of any sort) will give a foundation on which to build further knowledge and expertise, and to learn more advanced techniques. This development process should go on for life. A Degree (or any other qualification) is just a starting point of professional development, not the end point.

There is no reason a person without a degree can't learn techniques, but that would depend very much on the complexity of the techniques, and the ability of that person to learn in a work environment where the emphasis is to get the immediate job done quickly. For example, optimisation is best learned though a set of structured university courses rather than dabbling in canned software while working full time.

theme drift..... time for me to sign off and have another red.

A major difference that is forging such a dichotomy of opinion could come down to the way one was brought up. I was raised with the idea that education is very important (not saying this isn't the case for those without degrees) and so I naturally wanted to pursue higher education.

As it's been stated, command at the earliest possible age isn't the number one priority for all people. After I graduate from university, I'll have a combined law degree from USyd (albeit 4.5 years later). Although I might not get into the airlines as early as those who go into GA next year, I'll have had a blast with what university has offered me. There are also other things such as a commitment to life-long learning (which the poster above has briefly mentioned) which will support my professional develoment. There will also be exchange opportunities for me to study in another countries, listen to some of the most prominent speakers in the world today (Geoffrey Robertson, Malcom Turnbull and the US Ambassador gave talks several weeks ago, and Tony Abbot, former Chief Justices, solicitor-generals and others are schedules to give talks - even my lecturer for torts next semester will be a former High Court justice) and countless other opportunities that my future colleagues will not have had the chance to experience. Some of you may even be thinking well who cares? But to myself and others, we value what university other than the academic aspects offer. Indeed, most pilots my age will be far higher up in the seniority list, but in the end, it just comes down to what each person prefers, largely underpinned by how they were brought up.

Particularly to Mr. Hat, this doesn't detract from anything that you've achieved. I envy your position as a Qantas pilot and I know that I want to be in that position one day too. But, there are many other factors in my life such as wanting to be a pilot in the RAAF and university education that I have to balance out and by adopting the approach of the 'fastest way to the airlines', I inevitably miss out on many of the things that I want to do. Unlike you, I would still stick to the decision I've made (although I do regret not going to ADFA). At the same time, I think it was a sensible decision because from the way I see it, many ppruners negatively portray what is happening at Qantas (I guess this is the argument Mr. Hat puts foward about getting in early). At least this gives me time to assess my options and not go about putting all my eggs in one basket.

Food for thought for all those who argue that the fastest possible avenue to the airlines is most important:

If getting into the airlines asap is so important, why were so many against the Qantas cadetships (I'm not including the others because I know that would just lead people to talk about the experience/downward pressure on t&c etc) Alternatively, would you then suggest one leaves high school after year ten (if the student was seventeen), complete their CPL (by which time they would be 18), then go GA? Prior to submitting an application for the airlines, a bridging course could be completed in the required HSC subjects (takes about three weeks). This would arguably be the fastest route into the airlines? Would you support this path?

jieunni, possibly in your case it may have been better for you to take the ADFA offer, as you are obviously looking for security if all fails. Look at what you've missed out on with ADFA - free university education and free flying and might I say getting paid for it too.

You should go back now and tell them you'd elect for direct entry pilot. You've obviously passed the RAAF Candidate for Pilot Selection to be selected for ADFA and Pilot Training. Look at all the money you'd save in learning to fly alone. Do a Degree Course part-time whilst in the RAAF or afterwards. The only contraint is the ROSO (Return of Service Obligation) of I think 10 years now and more if you are further trained on the B737 BBJ or A330 Tanker. I can't remember when I was in the military what it was. But, remember, the failure rate is high.

What I think is clear from this thread is those who have never been to university don't appreciate the immense educational, social, psychological and motivational benefits of going to university - aviation course or non-aviation course.

And even more importantly, the chicks. Oh, and the uni bar. And the parties. And the chicks. Did I mention those? No? OK then... Chicks.

All I have to say is why do the Qantas cadetship, Jetstar (partially because it isnt actually a degree, its an associates) make their cadets do degrees ? I wonder.. thats a hard one to figure out:rolleyes: Clearly its valued and will continue to be an upward trend.

Those that regret doing it, either are windups or probably regret becoming a pilot too- the simple truth is that 1 year extra of a degree is NOT going to prevent you from getting command for years and years!

I think many readers need to remember that even in the 90s when many started out degrees werent valued here in aviation anywhere NEAR as much as they are now. Look at the Qantaslink traineeship criteria- Tertiary education/degree is a highly desirable component. I can tell you of two guys I know one who had a degree (was in Aviation) and one who didnt and both with the same experience- and the one with the degree got into the traineeship. But no listen to these guys, don't spend 1 year extra doing it- because it will never help:ok:

Same old same old...
 

To save myself a lot of typing I'll quote a post I made only four months ago on this very topic...

Jieunni, I don't work for Qantas. I do support their pilots, as I would others, in their cause however.

Confirmation bias alive and well...
 

What I think is clear from this thread is that those who have been to university overappreciate the value of going to university.

To anyone justifying three years of study for a "backup" please read my previous reply. As Mr Hat mentioned, if you don't keep your other skill set current it wont be much use to you.

Seabreeze

Self-serving intellectual snobbery! Backed up with a flawed argument which is itself backed up with a completely inane example.

Nkand:

Do they? Or is it that they get their students from providers like OAA who as part of their package include the Swinburne course? Best not to confuse cause and effect here. Why then do Qantas and J* DEFO's require HSC and not a tertiary qualification?

Clearly this is your opinion only.

Highly desirable doesn't mean mandatory! Surely you've passed HSC/VCE English? Is your comprehension lacking?

And the funniest quote of all:

To say that the degree made the difference here shows that you've a fundamental misunderstanding on how a recruitment process works.


DIVOSH!

P.S. But no, listen to these guys (Nkand, Jieunni, b_sta, etc), spend extra time and money doing a course which may well have a negative impact on your flying career.

I'd say you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm well aware that an aviation degree as a supposed prerequisite is unlikely to assist one in specifically becoming a pilot, and I'd also absolutely agree with your statements that getting a non-aviation degree simply as a backup is a futile exercise. However, where a degree does come in handy is, as I already stated, through the development of an indepth education - the taught ability to critique, question, research and explore - the motivational benefits, the social experience, and the satisfaction of achieving a major goal in life for many people.

Personally, I know far more people who've attended university - not just in aviation - than haven't, and I can't think of one who's regretted it. Perhaps 18 year olds with stars in their eyes and promises of an FO job on a 74 may end up regretting attending, given an expectation of such instant, causative success, but for those attending university for the right reasons, it's hard to beat in terms of personal growth at any age.

My thoughts, specifically? Do the training to become a pilot, if that's what you want, then do a degree - whichever degree you think you'll enjoy or will assist you in some way - as an addition to broaden your own knowledge, perceptions and skills. Don't waste your time doing an aviation degree because you think it'll get you a job, and don't waste your time doing a non-aviation degree simply as a backup.

I was one of the guys who did the Qantas cadetship - now probably one of the youngest FOs and I did not get a university education. Take what you want from that, but it's quite clear that bypassing university education gets you into the airlines much faster.

However, it's much like a double-edged sword. If there was enough time in the world for what everyone wanted to do, I would have most probably done a history degree because that is where one of my interests lie. I do no think that there is also any doubt that university offers many of the other benefits that those who advocate for it are arguing i.e. professional development, social environment, networking, exchange, challenging etc

In terms of an aviation degree, I don't find any particular strong advantages of completing one, but if another field? Definitely. Jieunni makes a really good point about life-long learning but I bet there would be several raised eyebrows with the fact that you're doing a combined law degree at a university that had a UAI (or whatever it's called these days, ATAR I think?) of 99.7 - the industry is becoming worse and worse. From the pilots that I've talked to, they wouldn't recommend this to their children. You could easily do something else, earn bucket loads of money, whilst still enjoying the pleasures of aviation.

Just my two cents

If you really want a degree there is nothing to stop you doing one ,[part time] AFTER you have a job in an airline. In fact you will credits for a large pecentage of an Aviation degree. Many pilots have done degrees of various types after years in an airline.

Joining an airline one year apart may mean many seniority numbers and that may be the difference between good and less good times for the next 40 years!
For eg: those that joined Qantas one year after me cannot get to an aircraft type where I have middle seniority!:ugh:

Times may change but in many ways degrees are only for snob value! I have been looked down on by some of these snobs for not having a degree [by Batch Arts FFS!:ugh:]and not having the benefits of going to Uni, thankfully I don't care and would prefer to be earning three times their salary!:ok: [unfortunately that is changing in this industry too!]:mad:

I don't think it is for the snob value anymore, if there were ever such a thing. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a job without a degree in fields such as law and medicine (both of which it is a requirement), architecture, engineering etc

You were probably looked down upon because you couldn't spell the first word of their qualification and with regards to doing a degree during employment? I guess it could be possible if you were SH, but I know I wouldn't be effed to get out a textbook whilst I am jetlagged during stopover and study. Also, whilst you may be earning three times more than a B Arts, there are many degrees that offer avenues to careers that make our salaries laughable (given what we also have to go through as well + medical + checks)

I think it is quite clear that you under-appreciate the value of university.

Will, I did a degree with Swinburne and had a great time! got to party and play up whilst i also learnt some great stuff and met some top people who are still great friends... With it being so hard trying to find work these days maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to give it a crack and wait for 'the next dip in the roller coaster'... However some tips for if you do decide to do it...

1. If the flying has anything to do with 'Oxford' don't do the training with them... Go to some other mob that has a solid base and good reputation with older more experienced instructors... Oxford market their product well, yet the fact of the matter is that the guys that will be teaching you with Oxford are only fresh CPL's themselves and haven't yet grasped flying either... on top of that the rates which they charge for the aircraft hire is shocking (way to much icing on the cake!) I know for a fact, (because i was so shocked myself) that you can hire a twin at other schools for less then what they charge for a single! and if your planning on going into the charter world I think an old 'gas and steam' twin would benefit you a lot more in the long run...

2. If your course includes ATPL subjects see if you can skip it and go do the study with AFT in the sunny coast. The cost of one ATPL subject at uni is just as expensive as the 4 major ones with Nath... I know at Swinburne if you complete the CASA ATPL exam that is more then enough for the university to pass that component

3. Network as much as you can it won't hurt you in any way just help you if anything.

4. Just enjoy.

If you have any other questions mate feel free to inbox me otherwise have fun!

Flyhigh,
I can spell OK! Have many mates in medicine etc and of course they need degrees, that is how their profession is trained. We are talking about aviation degrees here, almost useless!:=
Of most of the B Arts crowd, I wouldn't piss on them, a waste of [my] taxpayers money.:ugh:

How many of the richest 1000 people in Australia have degrees?:confused:

You are correct, I do under-appreciate the value of university.:E

Of course, I agree - almost useless. But only on what is learnt ie the subjects taught.

I would think that many of the top 1000 richest Australians would have degrees.

With respect to the rest of the world, there are only the odd few we hear about like Bill Gates who drop out of Harvard and become self-made billionaires :{

Already done a Business degre - looking to become a pilot
 

Hey,

I'm 23, already done a business degree at UTS and worked in finance. Always wanted to be a pilot and after much deliberation i've decided to go ahead and do it! I do value a good education and enjoyed the whole university experience but wondering if it's worth doing again to become a pilot?! If it puts me ahead at all i'll consider doing it but just seems like the Bachelor of Aviation is for people that want to become a pilot and also want the whole university experience.

Any advice/thoughts would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

You already have a worthwhile degree, save your money and just do the normal route. :ok:

No.
Fly. :ok:

As Biggles said, your own degree is a good one; you don't need another.

uni
 

Hi

The situation I am in is I am 28 and want to start a career in the aviation industry, which i regret not doing straight from school but I do have a trade behind me and a whole lot of knowledge and life experience.

The issue is I have a home loan now and to pay upfront the costs involved to get my CPL I would have to sell my place and rent until I can buy again in the future.

That is why I am considering either bachelor of aviation at Griffith or Swinburne Uni mainly because i can defer the flight training costs using hecs and fee help and have minimum initial out of pocket expense.

What are peoples thoughts? I know my age is an issue but I am at a point in my life that I want to be in a career I love for the next 30 + years in my life, even if I don't make excessive amounts of money.

Cheers in advance for the input.

:D

You don't have to go to University to access FEE-HELP. I'd recommend checking out TAFE courses run by smaller flying schools.

I recently completed a Bachelor of Aviation at university and put a lot of my flight training on FEE-HELP. The flying school I went to was too big and didn't really give a stuff about my progress, there were 2 month long gaps in my training due to shortages of instructors.

I've since moved to a smaller school and I'm progressing faster than ever and enjoying my training a million times more than I was at the University's flying school. The smaller school I'm at now have a TAFE course with access to FEE-HELP. If only I had known that 3 years ago, it would have saved me a lot of time, money and headaches.

Would you have any more information or know where i can get it regarding tafe courses approved for vet fee help?

Ive tried searching tafe's etc but cannot find anything. Is it only offered in certain states? I am in qld and was considering Swinburne uni as it is only 3 years where Griffith up here is 4.

What is your feedback on the Bachelor of Aviation?

Thanks for the reply.

I think UNSW Aviation offers a Bachelor of Aviation with Hecs-Help and a concurrent Graduate Diploma of Flying with Fee-Help. You have to meet academic entry requirements of some sort.

Having up-front loans is great but they have to be paid back... eventually.

By the way VET Fee-Help and Uni Fee-Help have different requirements in terms of up-front and deferred costs


SB

Oh dear, I hope I haven't gotten my facts wrong.
Looks like VET FEE-HELP doesn't cover CERT I - IV, which is what the CPL is usually under. It's just a matter of finding a place that has CPL included under a diploma or graduate certificate.

I thought Royal Vic Aero Club had access to FEE-HELP, but it looks like that's only for Instructor and Instrument rating.

Here's a list of all the places that are approved VET. Not all of them are aviation, but it might help. Providers that offer Commonwealth assistance - Study Assist

Giving them a ring to enquire about courses can't hurt, if it's a good school they'll be more than happy to help to give you info.

My university experience was good and bad. Good points included making a big network of friends who I'm still mates with after finishing uni, and getting a nice overview of all the parts of aviation, like how an airline runs as a business, air traffic control, aircraft design, etc.

The bad part was trying to juggle a university degree as well as flying as well as a job to pay for rent, food and those damn charts, books, exams, uniform, headset and landing and ILS fees.

Some subjects sucked as well, who wants to constantly pump out assignments on complex numbers and matrices or the mathematical formulas behind gas turbine engines or calculate the stress and forces in a beam that has a hole drilled in it or do a 20,000 word group assignment when you have a nav the next day? Uni + Flying = hard if you value sleeping.

Really bad points included the constant battle with the flying school about how I wanted to have weekly lessons to get my flying done instead of having 4-8 week gaps because my instructor was 'busy' teaching the cadets. Endless phone calls, emails and meetings and no one could seem to fix that for me. What was meant to be 2 years of flying (getting to CPL) dragged out to 3.5 years.

A lot of people I studied with ended up hating how big and unorganised the flying school was. It can zap your motivation pretty quick when a simple thing like getting a flying lesson booked is near impossible.

I didn't study at RMIT so I'm not sure what their course is like, if you're trying to save time this one looks really quick and cuts out all the university assignment stuff?
C6010 - Diploma of Air Transport (Airline Pilot) - RMIT

Other advice: Look at scholarships. There are ones available for accommodation and all types of wacky stuff.