Merged: Airtex/Skymaster AOC suspended
 

Tell me it's not true - - that CASA have done their usual 5pm Friday stunt. Oh, I'm sorry, it was 4.30, letter under the door, and a phone call telling the operator to read the letter!!!!!!!
Passengers stranded all over Australia - from Darwin to points South and East.
CASA again proving what a bunch of unmitigated ars---------s that they are!
But wait there is more - and you think that Polar Air case was/is a big one - you ain't seen nothin yet!
:mad::mad::ugh:

Two accidents in a relatively short period of time.................. :mad:

O, we didn't see that one coming :ugh:

Let us all hope their doors stay closed :ok:

Careful: Softly, softly.
 

Kipling's poem about smugglers springs to mind. "Them as ask no questions, is' nt told no lies". etc. It will depend on who's lies create the 'best' reasonable doubt in a court of LAW, not in the minds of CASA.

Mandatory reading for all Australian operators is the Polar Air saga in WA. Read carefully, then draw your own conclusions children. This is what the industry has, and is forced to deal with on a daily basis.

The Airtex story will become part of our Australian aviation legend, make no mistake. It all depends on what flavour you like your spin, just like coffee. Do not believe, for one moment that the 'authority' has got it right. They are so very much like the gutter press, sketchy proof, big headlines and no apologies issued. What happens , years after the headlines, it turns out that when, proven beyond a reasonable doubt (in a court of criminal real law, with barristers and everything) they were wrong, again. Any changes - not since 1922.

It is fairly sad that this is what Chief Pilots and ATO' s have to live with every working day. It is not for the money God knows. The Airtex case will, eventually, prove to be the basis for a Royal commission into the absolutely immoral behavior and poor performance of the authority over the past few years.

OK. For a 6 pack; who said (public record) ? " The authority is not responsible for safety, but for ensuring a safe verdict for judges".
No criticism, bollix. Churchill - " Bugger on!". P.S. He won.

And Fron the CASA website:
 

I wonder. . . :(

Before taking action to vary, suspend or cancel a certificate, CASA provides the holder with written details of the facts and circumstances that CASA believes warrant the proposed action and, except in a case involving an immediate safety threat, provides them with a reasonable opportunity to show cause why the action should not be taken.

thorn bird
 

This should be a wake up call for every operator in Australia. We are not dealing with anyone acting with probity, mostly industry rejects with inflated ego's out to prove a point, therebye increasing their likelihood of promotion. There are various Dubious characters out there trying to make a name for themselves, beware! Its a very sad to say but it would seem that the days when one could seek advise and council from our regulator are long gone, unless your prepared to pay for it. With the current regime to seek council and advise (without your lawyer present) is at your peril, anything you say can and WILL be twisted out of context, massaged to make the "evidence fit the crime" and used against you in a court of law. Disagree with them or critisize and mate you are out of business!!Anyone talking to CASA today should remember three replies "Yes".."No" or "cant remember" then find a good lawyer if you can afford one.

CASA is not there to guide you and help you and make aviation safe for all. They are there to punish you. And like most government depts, they are largly laws unto themselves.

I cannot believe that this would happen without issues a statement to show cause.

Snoop dog, you really are an ill informed ignoramus.

If you would just go shove your head back up your ass, and leave that sort of ignorance out of it.

thorn bird
 

:D well said that man

snoop doggy dog, you are right on the money. I know of their practices and procedures. And yes, it will be much safer for the public and for future and current pilots if their doors never open again.

Snoopy doggy dog and oneday_soon,

You say you .
The pay was not the best, but I spent two years working for them and I tell you, you couldn't be more wrong.
I guarantee you, no operator will beg you to write up snags and ground their aircraft. It is up to the pilot. I grounded those a/c whenever they needed to be. Have stopped and overnighted at times because I was fatigued, even though "CAO's and Fatigue Management" said I could continue, and I can promise you not one word from ops, the hangar, or the Austrian as to why, not once was I asked to explain myself.
Now if you would refuse to do it because you were worried about your job, then don't blame Airtex for that.

Hope they are up and running soon and everyone has their jobs back, but I am afraid CASA's tricks may force them out.

Assy

There is a very famous scene in the movie Tora Tora Tora, where Admiral Yamamoto say " I fear we have woken the sleeping dragon who will take a terrible revenge"

This time round CASA has perhaps woken a man with both the resolve and the resources to see justice as an end.

To those two on this thread who for personal reasons - envy or revenge want Airtex etc closed remember there are some 70 families that depend upon them for their livelyhood and well being. This has been arbitarily taken away by a few who appear to have no reason except to get "a notch on their belt" and to further a dubious career.

These CASA gentlemen should be aware that Dick Smith did one very good service to our Industry that has yet to be used. CASA employees may be personally liable for their actions. It will just take one person to proceed against a CASA employee to bankruptcy to bring this point home.

I noticed Skymaster were advertising for PA31 drivers yesterday.

You want to be very, very careful saying stuff like that. Despite the ever-popular swipes at CASA and their motives, they simply cannot take the well-being of employees into account when making safety-related decisions - their job is to protect the public, not the company. Despite the way some people love to hate CASA, and despite some past indiscretions, they always look at the legal side when making these decisions and I doubt they would have acted without serious and substantial concerns.

In this case, there seem to be rather too many issues in too short a time for comfort.

CASA may sometimes overstep the mark, but many of the companies they take action against are far from blameless.

Your an idiot assymetric. You had best open your eyes and read when quoting who has said what :rolleyes:

It is your responsibility to not fly fatigued and stop if you are, so you are not endangering the lives of people. Hence the need for a good safety culture to educate people like yourself. No one forced you to work there mate. Working sixteen hour days for one hundred and fifty dollars. Good luck to you, it was your choice mate :mad:

They certainly operate differently now they do not have their own maitenance, or is it the pilots' working there are willing to fly aircraft with multiply snags to get the job done? :ugh:

Best to clean the industry up, and have operators that respect their employees and have a good safety culture in their operations.

RATsoreA, snoop doggy was flying for this mob directly/indirectly when you were still on your mummas tit, fortunately for him he moved onto the shiny jet. Snoop doggy tried in the past to bring one dodgy operator to the attention of CASA ( I was witness in one of the meetings ) but they refused to step in, he resigned from that mob just before they drove an aircraft into a hill. So RATsoreA, although this is an anonymousrumour mill, he has had more to do with CASA and trying to prevent (unsuccessfully) fatals before they occurr than you have probably had hot dinners. snoop in the end found it easier to walk away from GA and join an airline. RATsoreA, if you tried to bring an accident waiting to happen 10 years ago mate to the attention of CASA, you would known what balls it took to risk ending your own career so you could sleep at night with a clear conscience.

How do you get envy or revenge out of the above threads dhavillandpilot? :rolleyes:

Was there a Metro and recently a PA31 that killed people from this company? :rolleyes:

If envy or revenge is wanting good operators to service people in Australia, whilst cleaning out the rest, I guess it is as you say.

Having casual employees who will tow the line (because they want the twin hours or whatever), do what is required (long hours, low pay, work fatigued, etc) is not at all conducive to a good safety culture. Sooner or later the latent failures line-up and disaster strikes, as it has with this company :mad:.

The good thing for the seventy families is that they will have their loved ones coming home tonight, as CASA is doing what it should have done a long time ago. The regulator acts too slowly and should have guided this company on a tighter rein it seems. Example, Transair operated for some time before they were finally closed.

It will be interesting to see what safety culture changes the company put in place since the first disaster. If the company employed people full time since disaster one, then I guess the were moving in the right direction. I doubt it though and what have my money on the line drivers still being casual so they are at the companys' beck and calling :=.

For the record mate, I have always choosen where I work and walked away from operators when it did not seem right. I had a good bit of advice when I started out twenty years ago and have used it as a measure;

"If someone asks you to do something that's not right or fly an aircraft that is not serviceable, don't do it and walk away. Even if they say there are people to replace, walk away, you keep your good reputation and a better opportunity will come your way."

Mate, there is no envy or revenge here. I am out, I have chosen not to fly anymore for a living. But I have been in and around the industry for 20+ years now, an emotion plays a big part in people's thinking. People are so desperate to fly, that they will compromise there own lives to get into the air. They justify what they are doing or are just so blinkered by what they are trying to achieve that they convince themselves companies such as the ones in question should continue to operate. It is Tunnel vision.

My God, it is amazing to me what people are prepared to do to fly.

Just remember there is so much more to life than flying. It took me a long time to realise that, but i am lucky i did.

Good Luck all.

Now tell me who couldn't see that one coming.... The person concerned is just about on his last legs with ANY Australian operator. I know we made that mistake once, Airtex was probably the only mob who would touch him - or maybe they never reference checked him.

Dieter and SD, you don't deserve this, it was brought to you by the other two industry lightweights concerned. I wish you the best.

Les,
Whom are you referring to... the current Skymaster CP or former incumbents?

??...
 

:ooh: Anyone knows what's wrong with this operator???

Link to CASA press release is here

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Two Sydney based air operators suspended

Les N.
 

Well . . you got it half right! Dieter certainly didn't deserve all this, as for SD - when you play "cute" within the "knowledge is power" scenario, I guess you could say that the results speak for themselves. Karma will prevail.
P.S. Rumour has it that this info is first hand, not hearesay!

Well it's sure put a stop to their Lake Eyre flights!

DF.

I wonder, in my quiet way - why is it so?.
 

We have the snipers 'in the back of the crew bus' (slightly smug for being there) or people hiding behind 'Dirinbandi' locations (sod the spell checker) or some such ridiculously far fetched part of the planet, happy to deride, delight in criticism and run down an industry which, despite all the inherent, inflicted and regulatory problems, survives.
Almost everyone here had a start in GA, some had a charmed run, some fell at the first fence. But every pilot reading this (bar a few) has held their breath over a 'rough engine', gripped the seat with their buttocks during a close call for fuel or dragged a pig through a fence on a hot day calling loud and long, to whatever Gods they believe in, the pilots eternal prayer .
"Just let me get this one home and I'll never infringe a regulation again". The second line is
" Please help me survive my first 500 hours multi, and I will live in 'Dirinbandi' for ever, always humbly ride in the back of the bus (crew only) and never stuff up like this again so help me".
This newly discovered piety always lasts until slightly after the second beer.
GA runs on enthusiasm, adrenalin and precious little else. The guys at Airtex are no worse and probably better than a lot of operators. It is grossly unfair to criticise young Andy Wilson, a three legged dog, or a two legged bar stool without you knowing the story. ALL the story, warts and all.
It is quite a story. Wait for the evidence and the judgements. It will be worth it.
To those who allow the 'authority' to rule their every waking minute remember the bit in the book about throwing the first stone (it is Sunday after all).
Tailwinds – Lilum (inter spinas).

This is something that my personal experience can attest to. I have flown with some dodgy operators (Primary flight instruments that may as well have been painted on, 'can you fly this single engine ****box 120nm over a remote area on one magneto to maintence so they can fix it) and I have never been pressured/tempted/asked/coerrced to do anything that wasn't happy with.

DS has his ways about him, but I always found him to be a straight shooter and IMHO, is undeserving of this.

Tiger19, you should have your own pyschic style TV show, seeing as how you can reach out across cyber space and make sweeping statements that make claims about my experiences.

I have left a poor operator after voicing my concerns, where they then drove a (turbine) aircraft into a hill, fortunatly, empty at the time except for the pilot. And I sleep like a drunk baby at night, thank you.

CASA
 

I agree with much of what has been said here, most importantly being CASA's selective and often unfounded targeting of operators and individuals, some based on personal grudges and several FOI's desire to have the last word. Not for a second am I saying Airtex don't have issues, however look at the way CASA have done this again, the friday late arvo shut down.

There are a stack of dodgy operators around, that get away with what they do because they can. Then there are others that are so closely monitored, any glitch (even if outside everyone's control) and they feel the wrath of an angry bunch of little men. Troppos were a good example. Again, not to say they didn't have some issues along the way, but they were undoubtedly the best operator up there, and the only one to be shut down.

If you ask ANYONE in Australian Aviation what they think of CASA, you will always, 100% of the time get a negative response. Why is this continuing on like this then? Why the hell don't we do something about it??

There are a lot of incredibly intelligent, informed and experienced individuals here on pprune, surely there are enough people to get together and get some action going.

We live in a society where we decide who controls what we do. Why do we all complain about these people and do nothing about it?? Unless proven otherwise, I believe we all feel the same about this, so why are we sitting around letting these people continue doing what they do? Where and how do we start??

I'm sure there are people on here who consider this a very naive and uninformed post, however the simple fact is that everyone in aviation here in Australia who is governed by these people all feel the same. So why can't we start to make a change?

Dumb question department, but who are Avtex, I have heard of Airtex, Heron and Skymaster?

Les,
The following comments apply to the Avtex/Airtex Metro operation only, and the changes required by CASA after the freighter loss about two years ago.

Over a period of 18 months, a new CP and a boss of training ( with long term serious airline training/standards and management experience) were put in place.All the pilots were retrained, two pilot crews for pax ops. (demanded by CASA) became the order of the day.

All the manuals and the CAR 217 procedures were completely revamped, not only to include two pilot SOPs, but a complete overhaul, and all the changes were progressively negotiated with the then CASA YSBK management, and new AOCs were issued, with restrictions progressively removed, as changes went into place. So, at least twice in that period, presumably "--- and CASA is satisfied".

As far as I know, the SMS put in place (before they became mandatory) was the first fair dinkum SMS in a small GA organization. Check out the airline exemptions.

In the 18 months up to last February, there were several CASA audits, and several ACS ( the ICAO/IATA IOSA audit team from Melbourne) independent audits, all probably with a few comments, as there always are, but apparently no show stoppers. The ACS team is internationally recognized by ICAO and IATA, with a long list of very high profile clients, including not just international airlines, but national aviation authorities. One might reasonably say ACS auditors are far more highly qualified and widely experience than all but a few of CASA's inspectors. An ACS audit of CASA would be an interesting exercise.

Then, earlier this year, the CASA management changed at YSBK, and as they say in the movies: "The rest is history".

As I hear it, just about every operator at Bankstown, and most of the local ATOs are all in CASA YSBK sights.

Tootle pip!!

Leadsled is correct in what he says.

This has all the appearance of "notches on the belt" to enhance someones career.

If CASA is so determined to "do the job" and be the tough regulator then perhaps they should also look at the Qantas maintenance?

But there again, this would only be a fairy tale as Qantas is in the national interest - read political clout.

This is far from over and the driving force defending it has the will, means and determination to win.

As the chinese say "may you live in interesting times.

Any truth to a rumour that this operator had a big win against CASA and in particular an FOI that was hell bent on stopping the turbine side of this operation. From memory, it was over 10 years ago and a LARGE sum of money was handed over by CASA??????? Again, this is a rumour network, so please shoot me down in flames if i'm wrong!!!!!!!! But if it is true, remember, the big old elephant never forgets.

A young Aviator was being ramp checked by a CASA FOI.
As the FOI walked to the door of his Cessna, flipping open his ticket
book, the young aviator said, 'I bet you are going to sell me tickets to the CASA Flight Operations Inspectors Ball.'
He replied, 'CASA Flight Operation inspectors don't have balls.'
There was a moment of silence while the young aviator smiled, and the FOI realized what he'd just said.
He then closed his book, got back in his vehicle and left.

The young aviator was laughing too hard to start the aeroplane.

GG, I don't care if that is true or not because it is just so beautiful!

GG..........:D

Wrong, "I fear we have woken the sleeping dragon".
 

The CASA has no fear of any opposition, sleeping or not!. Guess what, the dragon is us.

The CASA anti dragon measures are a pitiful, wretched, hidebound, moribund culture which seeks to create fear by perverting flawed laws, to suit it's own sad egocentric ambitions.

It is up to the industry to stop the CASA.

Say (or shout) –'enough'. People power changes communist dictatorships. What chance have this CASA bunch against any 6 pack of determined Chief Pilots in the land.

Six good men and true could get rid of this bunch screeching pretenders. Easier than breaking wind. Just explain to the Senate that you, not the CASA bunch, are the legally qualified, everyday managers of real safety in this industry. You may also explain that bullies, screaming skulls, jack o' lanterns, the thing under the bed and Voldemort are always beaten by truth (or a cricket bat). Individual choice there children.

Look at any CASA document; grammar, punctuation, spelling and the use of the English language (as opposed to KGB translation) is not only piss poor, but would hardly qualify as acceptable under the least picky FOI' s idea of 'how it should be writ'. There is always a 'spello' or two, ask anyone who writes or, has ever written a manual. Do not the local FOI. Dollar says they are barely capable of reading it, let alone comprehending changed ideas or the legal/operational complexities of writing the blessed thing.

Remember; CASA/L3. "If not previously approved, knock it back". (Rule three of the CASA approved post lobotomy treatment).

For example, who the hell wrote CAO 40.1, (or part 5) bet you a 6 pack, the native tongue is not English.
Enough frivolity. Get real about changing the culture of fear.

What are you waiting for guys?. The manslaughter charge?.

Just remember old age and treachery beat youth and initiative every time.


When you complain to the Minister, remember that your letter goes down through the management chain all the way to the very person you are complaining about. It is that person who then writes the Ministers letter back to you.

That person also has your file on his desk when he does it, and every piece of correspondence your organisation has ever written to CASA is in it, and its all registered and neatly indexed at his fingertips.

Now along with the letter this joker writes for the Minister to sign, he writes a Ministerial brief, no more than Two pages long at the very maximum. The Ministerial brief explains what the bureaucracy has done to investigate the matter you raised, a recommendation about the resolution of the matter, maybe a point of explanation if necessary, perhaps to explain some terminology or construction in the letter, and finally a recommendation that the Minister sign the attached letter.

Assuming your bosses, who all have to read and approve your brief are happy, and the Ministerial adviser is happy it ain't going to cost votes, the Minister is handed the brief and the letter and signs it as well as initialing the brief, which is then returned to you so you can take copies and post the damn thing.

I am telling you this because unless you are absolutely rock solid in your facts, and can prove misdeeds comprehensively, you are going to be hung drawn and quartered very quickly by the very person you are complaining about, and it will be done in the full light of day, watched by senior bureaucrats and the Minister, and there is not a damn thing you can do to stop it once you have mailed your complaining letter.

You have engaged in a dual with a Public servant. His only resource in the public service is his reputation and personal file. If you succeed in besmirching his escutcheon, his career is finished. He will fight you to the death and he has all the resources of the Department behind him.

That is the meaning of the constant use of the word advice by Government Ministers. They always act on advice from a public servant unless they are, to use "Yes Ministers" Sir Humphrey Appelby word "courageous" meaning stupid.

You would need an overwhelming display of industry solidarity to get anywhere with CASA otherwise you will simply be fobbed off as "Several disgruntled Individuals" and dealt with piecemeal in private. Furthermore, your concerns should be couched in terms of helping CASA and the industry improve safety and efficiency, not just carping about one of many administrative decisions that need to be made by CASA every day that wasn't to your liking.




......and finally, I've been a victim of the Friday 4.30 pm letter/fax (in commercial matters, not with CASA or Government). It is a puerile legal insult, since it is extremely unpleasant having to drop everything at that hour and try and find a lawyer and a judge who will give you an immediate injunction.

I would have thought better of CASA.

Do as I say, not as I do !!!
 

Lead Sled, you are right on the money when you mention an audit on CASA. Some years ago (not too many) I did a Safety/Lead Auditor course. That particular course was held in Brisbane, and the practical part of the course was done live on Virgin Airlines at YBBN.
The course instructor commented, in detail, about previous courses, which, for their practical component, had completed (or had attempted to complete) on CASA (at CASA's invitation).
Every component of the Audit on CASA failed, with multiple RCA's (requests for corrective action) issued for every element of the Audit.
CASA declined to discuss the results of the Audit, and CASA subsequently forbade the Auditing of themselves by an independant auditor.
On the matter of a revised 217 manual, demanded of Airtex by CASA, it would seem that the legal imperative of IPSO FACTO has been ignored. It would seem inconceivable that having accepted a new manual, and re-issuing the AOC on the basis of that new manual, that CASA would then proceed on what could best be described as a witch hunt, using the old 217 manual (or parts from that manual that best suit CASA's purposes) to persecute Airtex.
Or does it suit CASA to mix both Airtex's old and new 217 manuals to produce a bending machine that will allow CASA to massage facts into any shape that might suit their needs.
Reliable rumour has it that both Dubious and Worthless conclusions have been arrived at using the aforementioned tactics.
One would suspect that the matter is being mentioned in legal Chambers.

While all this has nothing to do with me, is the CASA gentleman who was involved in some on going West Australian airline alleged persecution legal matter (Polar Air?) involved in this matter? I think I understood that he was promoted into some East Coast management position. Name escapes me.

Provided that CASA have hard evidence to shut this business down, maybe they should start shutting down a few more?


One operator that way, had 2 major prangs in as many months, but CASA are not knocking on their door?? 2 Dead and one pilot has lost an eye:{

Word going around is "if you fly that much, something is bound to happen eventually", and with that mentality GA in Australia takes yet another step backwards...so much for "moving forward"....:mad:

I personally think that the owner of an aviation business (one with the financial interest in the company) should not be allowed to fix or fly that companies aircraft...

CMN :E

Sunfish is obviously very familiar in dealing with Government, this is exactly how it works!:ok:

Sunfish,
Don't know about WA, but at least one individual CASA employee involved in this imbroglio has apparently an interesting history in Darwin, before he departed for cooler climes, or was it to cool down.
Tootle pip!!