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Parachuting at Elwood Park
Yesterday was probably the start of using the beachside park at Elwood as a parachuting DZ.
I would appear that the local council has approved para hops into the park on a trial basis, possibly two months. The jumps will be tandem (read passenger carrying) and will operate from Moorabbin airport. Elwood Park is on the beach south of Melbourne City. An aircraft in that area could be on any one of four frequencies so hearing a two-minute-to-jump warning might not be heard. Elwood is just north of the Brighton VFR waypoint into Moorabbin. The area is already very busy with aircraft going north and south and into Essendon, some in CTA, others about to join CTA and others flying OCTA. One has to ask does this meet APF regulations in hopping over a built up area? Do these jumps meet APF regs in terms of the jumpers having lifejackets on given the proximity to the sea? It would appear that a NOTAM will be issued on the day of any scheduled jumps. Whether that will be a Moorabbin or Melbourne FIR NOTAM is unclear at this stage. It has been reported that more than 100 jumps per week are planned. Given the extra workload on the Melbourne RAS 135.7 perhaps AirServices should start thinking of charging per hop for each flight that involves an airways clearance, in the same way that IFR flights are charged for using the system. Beware when flying north of Moorabbin for both horizontal and vertical traffic. |
If there was a NOTAM issued every time they are going to jump then that will help a little but seriously I liken the location to jumping out overhead Carrum. Mind you, Elwood is next to Brighton which is essentially an approach point for GAAP. Not so much am I overly concerned about the chutes as such but the aircraft dropping them, they are out to get up and down as quick as they can so you are certanily right about vertical and horizontal traffic.
Tooradin has been operating next to water for near 6 years and they haven't lost anyone to the water yet. Do you really want parachute aircraft to be charged for VFR CTA clearances? If you kept pushing that and it happened, god help us all. |
One has to ask does this meet APF regulations in hopping over a built up area? Responsibility for safety of the drop largely rests with the meat bomber. If as you say there is a possibility of a number of frequencies in use then the workload on that final jump run will be a little high. We used to see jumping into the ocean between Fremantle and Rottnest a few years back without too much problem. Perth Radar were always good at keeping the jump aircraft and those transiting mainland to the island or down the VFR route separated. AirServices should start thinking of charging per hop for each flight that involves an airways clearance, |
My semi-educated guess would be that ATC will clear the meatbomber to climb and descend out of the way of lanes of traffic in the area, likely over the bay depending on which rwy is in use at YMML which should be safe enough.
Proximity to water would unlikely pose a problem the tandem masters will all be very experienced and used to landing in certain areas; wind is also taken into account and if it's blowing offshore too strongly, they won't land on the beach. They'll have lifejackets with the pax just in case tho. However I would also have concerns with aircraft potentially flying through the DZ enroute to Brighton or towards YMEN, especially considering students who are struggling with high workloads (I know I would have likely missed the call during training), and would be interested to know how they are going to negate the potential risk?? A tandem master, pax and rig will make a mess of any aircraft if they end up sharing airspace. |
They wont exist soon will they months. |
Elwood DZ
For those of your flying in the Melbourne area, have you ever heard on ML Radar the clearance "Lilydale One".
The skydivers at Lilydale are the same people operating into Elwood and they work very closely with ML ATC. Lilydale One is a defined area to the South and East of Lilydale where they climb and descent in CTA. Melbourne Skydive also have a Cloud Manual approved by the AFP and ML ATC where they are approved to drop through cloud. Your points are well made with reference to the approach point into YMMB, but I am positive Radar is comfortable with the arrangement otherwise they wouldn't be able to drop in the area. Melbourne Skydive also drop into Royal Park near the Melbourne zoo from time to time. Cheers O471 |
I'm guessing that there may have been a case for a better weather check here?
Skydivers rescued as wild winds take Melbourne by surprise DRAMATIC footage has captured the moment skydivers were caught out as wild winds and thunderstorms lashed Melbourne. A total 14 tandem skydivers were rescued after diving in wild weather at St Kilda foreshore. Five people were treated with welts and abrasions after freefalling from 12,000 feet into hail and storm clouds. Instructor Thomas Lumb said the weather turned to “armageddon” after they leapt from the plane. “Once we were out, there was nothing we could do about it,” he said. MFB confirmed two people were rescued while “struggling” in the water, their parachute still attached, after they were brought down by the storm at about 3pm. Another 12 people were found at the foreshore after MFB conducted a land and sea search. First-time skydiver Samuel Cunningham, 29, was covered from head to toe in red welts. “It was very painful,” the Pakenham man said. “It seemed all right on the way up, but when we jumped out everything went pear-shaped. We got pelted on the way down.” Mr Cunningham and his instructor landed on the beach, about 1.5km away from the target landing spot. Herald Sun reader Christian said he saw the skydivers “dropping like flies”. “They were going way faster than usual and you could tell they were going to have a rough landing,” he said. As the skydivers hurtled to the ground, Christian captured the heavy impact on his phone. “The first one landed pretty heavily in the water, you can see it in the video,” he said. “Then there was another one that landed on the patch of land in front of the Espy.” Two people were taken to The Alfred hospital with minor injuries at 3.44pm, while another three were being assessed at the scene at 4pm. Christian said about an hour before the storm hit he had walked past the Skydive the Beach outlet and asked one skydiver whether he’d be going up in the wild weather. “He said they weren’t sure if they were still going up or not, but then about an hour later I was still walking around in the area and I noticed these four skydivers dropping like flies,” he said. Mr Lumb said the instructors — all with skydiving experience — used radars and internet forecasts to track the weather. But he said nothing had suggested a storm would hit during the jump. In his seven years as an instructor, Mr Lumb said he had never experienced anything like the rapid weather change. Only two of the tandem jumpers made it to the usual landing area at St Kilda Marina, with a couple landing on the beach, one coming down in the ocean and another landing in a park near the St Kilda Sea Baths. Skydive the Beach owner Anthony Boucaut denied MFB reports that the skydivers had to be rescued. He said the experienced divers decided on a soft landing on the sand and in shallow water when the wild weather hit. “The 14 people rescued is absolute furphy,” he said. “Never let a story get in the way of the truth.” Two other skydive groups were booked in for the afternoon but have been cancelled with strong winds set to continue. http://resources3.news.com.au/images...cd3b83aa30.jpg http://resources3.news.com.au/images...0a91fb6db7.jpg http://resources1.news.com.au/images...0a91fb6db7.jpg |
Skydive the Beach owner Anthony Boucaut denied MFB reports that the skydivers had to be rescued. The photo of the two tandem masters hugging and shaking hands says a lot, especially with the rubbish bins blown over in the background. |
You'd have to have had your head in the sand to not know that weather was coming today ! So the hail just fell from the blue sky above did it???
That video looks like a normal video with someone trying to lose height normally. They are damn lucky they didn't drown. Same as in NZ today. |
How absolutely moronic that they were dropping chutes with CB's building over the Melbourne area at the time, which were on the TAF. Hopefully someone gets their ass kicked for this ... was one way to easily kill multiple people
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You gotta admit Melbourne weather was quite unpredictable today. I was sitting in Batman Park (I think that's what they call it) where the helipads are located. It was sunny, calm and warm, I was even handed a free ice-cream by Melbourne Trams who are doing major road works nearby.
Then I got up to go back and within 5 minutes it was p#ssing down, it came out of nowhere. I looked around and there were only a few largish cumulus clouds floating about like Zeppelins. I checked the BOM website and their rain radar only showed tiny spots of intense rain with lots of clear air, never seen this kind of phenomenon before, but this is Melbourne I guess. Bad luck for the parachutists, I watch them regularly at Elwood and they are pretty good. Typical Herald Sun dribble, that's why I don't buy their newspaper. |
I just can't believe this sort of crap is still happening. Bad weather just don't appear from no where. Just pushing the gap to make an extra dollar.
Hopefully the APF board will take a few ratings for some time. And no one landed in the water in NZ. The boats went to the aircraft expecting to find people then found everyone further up the beach and brought them back to where the road access was. Pilot had to be cut from large blackberry bush. Poor press reporting as usual. FH. |
They did the same thing 2 years ago while I was watching from the Melb F1 paddock. A big CB was rolling in from the west during F1 quali on Sat arvo, it was easily visible for a while and they still jumped, big squall line, made for interesting watching until they landed.
Seems they never learn or indeed look at the weather? |
"radars and internet forecasts to track the weather" aside, one would think that in the air they - and particularly the pilot - would have seen the WX coming.
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To experience falling through hail, unless it was travelling at a amazingly high front speed, you'd have dropped them into the top of it.
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Saw some great footage of the guy that went into the water on facebook. Stopped 10ft short of smashing into the pier. The sky looks about 5-6/8 so no excuse saying it crept up.
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It was unusual weather yesterday - the thunderstorms early in the afternoon were being created by the CBD. But by later in the afternoon they were general across the city.
I have posted before that I have concerns about the way these guys operate. I've seen them land off the DZ in the past - on the beach near Elwood life saving club. I've also seen them emerge from cloud, under canopy, very close to the C182 out of Williamstown. |
If a parachutist was hit by an aircraft, whose fault would it be? Not trying to start and argument, but would it be the pilot who could have been listening to another frequency and not heard them jump or the person controlling the canopy?
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Originally Posted by pistnbroke_again
(Post 8815381)
If a parachutist was hit by an aircraft, whose fault would it be? Not trying to start and argument, but would it be the pilot who could have been listening to another frequency and not heard them jump or the person controlling the canopy?
I opined that leaving EN before a call there and then going onto 132.1 or 135.7 after a call had been made there, would leave me oblivious to a jump happening. And I believe it unreasonable to have to avoid an area (which many MB operators now do) because of the commercial operation causing risk to others. There are a number of pilots around who will attest to coming close to drops without having heard a 'warning' broadcast beforehand. |
there has to be coverage on 135.7, MB Tower, EN Tower, CTA broadcast, Yarra 132.1 and hope that everyone is listening and gets one of the calls |
With all the comprehensive radio calls those guys make and the fact that its clearly marked as a danger area on charts any pilot finding himself in conflict with parachutes deserves to be shot on arrival at their next port of call. If unsure and desperate to transit some smart cookies have been calling 135.7 to ask if a drop was due, its not hard.
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By the comments posted thus far, it's obvious no one knows how much traffic goes through this area.
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By the comments posted thus far, it's obvious no one knows how much traffic goes through this area. More to the point, it's the "quality" of pilots flying through this area. Back when I used to fly around there I considered anywhere south of the EN CTR right down to Cowes (including all around the bay and the MB Training area) to be a Danger area. It's not just the quantity of traffic; it's "where they are" as pilots. You've got English challenged guys who are taught at the sausage factories going on PPL solo flights through there. Some of these guys have almost zero situational awareness. Couple that with an inability to fly their areoplane in a practical way (i.e. if they're taught to fly over Brighton, that's the only place they'll fly over. It's not an option in their minds to fly 1nm west of Brighton and report "1Nm west of Brighton" when contacting MB tower). And it's not just trainee pilots. I've seen countless examples of so-called experienced PPL's and CPL's who just barge on through there without any concept that other aircraft are in the sky. IMHO, it's an accident waiting to happen. DIVOSH! |
I wonder if we should avoid the parachute danger areas or fly straight through them. The parachutists seem to think that they are entitled to priority but they are not. Others are just as entitled to use the airspace as they are. If they want exclusive use of the area, let them ask for an R area.
I think that they should operate away from congested airspace, the current arrangement near PTO is stupid. |
Radio calls?
You legally don't even need a radio to fly through there !! |
There is good radar and ATC in that part of the bay so you'd think that would help with traffic separation.
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DiVosh:
It's not just the quantity of traffic; it's "where they are" as pilots. You've got English challenged guys who are taught at the sausage factories going on PPL solo flights through there. Some of these guys have almost zero situational awareness. Couple that with an inability to fly their areoplane in a practical way (i.e. if they're taught to fly over Brighton, that's the only place they'll fly over. It's not an option in their minds to fly 1nm west of Brighton and report "1Nm west of Brighton" when contacting MB tower). And it's not just trainee pilots. I've seen countless examples of so-called experienced PPL's and CPL's who just barge on through there without any concept that other aircraft are in the sky. IMHO, it's an accident waiting to happen. I don't see why I or any other pilot should have to put up with the inconvenience. just to satisfy the thrill seeking needs of a bunch of St Kilda backpacking bogans and the greed of one parachuting business whose actions have just demonstrated a complete contempt for life and limb - close it down. Furthermore, some inbound pilots are now not tracking from Williamstown to Station Pier and proceeding down the coast to Brighton but tracking direct without a hope in hell of gliding to land if they have an engine failure and of course not wearing a life jacket. When one of them inevitably goes in I bet CASA issues an order making the wearing of life jackets mandatory for anyone tracking North and West out of YMMB. |
By the comments posted thus far, it's obvious no one knows how much traffic goes through this area. On one breath you blokes tell me Australia's aviation industry is in decline, then on the next breath you tell me we should shut down an aviation business that is successful just because they operate where a few other aircraft fly. Drop zones are tiny and easy to avoid. Whats wrong with you guys? |
Aussie Bob:
Like how much? All the traffic in Australia? We have traffic here? Serious? Some of you blokes need a trip to a busy country. Australia has no traffic and a declining aviation industry. On one breath you blokes tell me Australia's aviation industry is in decline, then on the next breath you tell me we should shut down an aviation business that is successful just because they operate where a few other aircraft fly. Drop zones are tiny and easy to avoid. Whats wrong with you guys? The drop zone is approximately Two miles North of the prescribed VFR entry reporting point Brighton (BTO) for aircraft arriving from the North and West. The drop zone is approximately One mile South of Albert Park VFR reporting point for aircraft inbound into Essendon airspace and frequently one will get "clearance unavailable remain OCTA until it is which requires an orbit to be made right through the drop zone. The drop zone is about Two miles South East of the Station Pier VFR waypoint which is a prescribed VFR entry/exit point from Essendon controlled airspace. To put it another way, you might as well put a drop zone in Martin Place, Rundle Mall or Fortitude Valley to get the same effect. |
In this instance PeterC I would not call Melbourne Radar "ATC."
It's glass G, no radio is even required and separation cannot be guaranteed as many (most?) aircraft going through there don't even make radio calls. Whilst there is a listed VFR route, aircraft go in all directions so there is no guarantee anyone is following it. |
Sunfish, clearly you know exactly where it is. How come, when you know exactly where it is, you have such a problem avoiding it?
Perhaps you need a GPS. Wanting to close down a viable aviation business because you don't like its location is pathetic. Parachutists fall through a 1 nm wide column. 5 nm is all you need to avoid them totally, like 2.5 nm either side of where they are dropping. Struth, how hard is that? |
Pretty easy to get it wrong in your light aircraft, and have a nasty encounter.
British glider over France. Parachutists DROPPING THROUGH CLOUD! One hits the glider, knocks the glider wing off....both glider pilots then take to their chutes, one of which opened about 10 feet AGL...felt like it, anyway, he testified at the French Magistrates court....where they were held to be negligent flying a glider in open airspace...under a cloud! And I got in trouble in a comp, following another glider near a known site, warned at the briefing....still got it wrong, and went round the parachute site on the UPWIND side. I never saw anybody, but the chief parachute instructor was freefalling, saw me below, maneuvered behind me, got my tail number and called the gliding competition director. I was basted in his office and before the entire congregation the next day. So its easy enough not to understand the requirements of this strange form of aviation. Well done all those New Zealanders who managed to exit their jump plane in time. Meat bombing, we calls it over here..... |
5 nm is all you need to avoid them totally, like 2.5 nm either side of where they are dropping. Struth, how hard is that? 2.5 nm one side and you infringe controlled airspace (or at least the tolerances for your planned track). 2.5 nm the other side and you are 2.5 nm offshore at 1500 feet. There are 4 VFR approach points for Essendon and Moorabbin within 2.5 nm. The coastal VFR route is marked literally right through the middle of the drop zone. It does seem like a dumb place for a drop zone. |
Radio calls? You legally don't even need a radio to fly through there !! Spot on, a carriage of a radio is not mandatory. However having the correct charts for your area of operation is. It's clearly marked. I am definitely with Aussie Bob on this one. It is sad that in a time where Australian GA is in decline people are trying to bring down a successful and progressive undertaking. Wednesdays event while unfortunate was a parachuting incident more so than an aviation one. How many years has the drop zone been operating now? How many incidents with aircraft coming dangerously close to parachutes? I think the most dangerous phase has passed and now there is enough awareness amongst the flying community about the dropzone that it is now safer than it ever has been. Listening to the pilots on ATC they act professional and courteous. Expediting their sortie when needed and never hesitating to go-around if there is a suspected class G conflict. I get the feeling half of you are instructors with training standards too p!ss poor for your students to have 3/38ths of a clue about situational awareness. Bit nervous if you sign a student out they might fly somewhere where they shouldn't? All you guys whining and moaning need to take a good hard look at yourselves in the mirror. Airmanship, get some. |
Aussie Bob:
Parachutists fall through a 1 nm wide column. 5 nm is all you need to avoid them totally, like 2.5 nm either side of where they are dropping. Struth, how hard is that? Takeoff, climb, head for Brighton or Albert Park,, set cruise power, trim, transponder to 1200 or 0100 for YMEN from 3000, get Essendon ATIS, switch from YMMB 123.0 to YMEN 125.1 or Area on 135.7 watch for inbound aircraft on reciprocal course that you just heard on 123.0, , keep climbing for 2500 but not above. Miss the jump call on the area frequency by one second in all your work. Oh ****! What was that??? What........... And a P.S., where in the hell is our great leader CASA in all this? How the hell could they approve it? Its terminally unsafe. |
I get the feeling half of you are instructors with training standards too p!ss poor for your students to have 3/38ths of a clue about situational awareness. Bit nervous if you sign a student out they might fly somewhere where they shouldn't? All you guys whining and moaning need to take a good hard look at yourselves in the mirror. Airmanship, get some. |
Picture attached for those interstate whom are failing to understand what is starting to sound like the busiest and most dangerous piece of airspace in the Southern Hemisphere. Sorry I don't have a helicopter logo for John or a 172 logo for the sausage factory.
What you see here is actually quite typical for a given Saturday or Sunday. http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/VTC-1.jpg |
2.5 nm one side and you infringe controlled airspace (or at least the tolerances for your planned track). 2.5 nm the other side and you are 2.5 nm offshore at 1500 feet. A brightly coloured tandem parachute drifting down vertically is infinitely easier to see than another aircraft. Please, especially in this area, look out the window folks. Hopefully do it everywhere you are VFR. Sunny, you have my respect on this forum but here I simply don't agree with your logic. Thankfully the regulator had enough nous to allow this operation. Obviously they are not totally against aviation. |
DZs
Haha nice picture squawk.
Some of the negativity from pilots towards skydiving sounds a lot like the negativity from the public to general aviation. Ban these 172s flying around that just get in the way of 737s. Busy airspace? What about the dropzone operation in amesterdam that operates out of their international airport? |
Busy airspace? What about the dropzone operation in amesterdam that operates out of their international airport? |
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