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-   The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions-91/)
-   -   Paying for ICUS (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/402142-paying-icus.html)

Di_Vosh 18th Jun 2010 00:47

I think Bushy's post was aimed at D***ctair

DIVOSH!

PLovett 18th Jun 2010 02:08

Di_Vosh, then bushy got it wrong, at least while I was there.

The Green Goblin 19th Jun 2010 07:14


Part of the reason operators charge ICUS is that after investing quite a lot of money on a pilots training they will piss off at the drop of the hat, leaving the operator to fork out for the next lot of training.
Not really, single engine operators know they've got 'em until they clock over th 1000th hour provided they provide decent working conditions and the work is there to support a career minded Pilot (they will leave pretty quick starting out at less than 400 hours a year)

A multi engine operator knows they have got them until 500 multi command, provided they meet the same conditions above. They also tend to stick around for a while on the pistons until a turbine slot shows up.

Turboprop operators generally have no choice with the training as it's mandated if they are a CAR217 operation however they do bond.

hardNfast 19th Jun 2010 08:17


Part of the reason operators charge ICUS is that after investing quite a lot of money on a pilots training they will piss off at the drop of the hat, leaving the operator to fork out for the next lot of training.
Really?? Most companies now days want you to pay up front for endorsements.

No wonder people piss off as soon as they get the hours they need. If they were a good operator to work for people would stay around.

Reading5 26th Jun 2010 16:12

I wanted to let all this go but I am still wondering...

Am I hallucinating here? I'm actually a little confused and might sign off as I think there are passing comment here.

A company obtaining a government loan...and people are rejoicing in their struggle? People getting ICUS and people PPRuners canning the company?

Give me a break! So where is the happy medium? If companies like Tasair go under, apart from the immediate impact to family members and share holders, what happens to the employees...not just the pilots.

Doing IMC IFR flying to get experience is a challenge. If you are adept and qualified at that, kudos to you brother or sister.

But don't pooh pooh people having a crack at doing this and trying to survive (literally). The company and the crew are okay and seemed to be switched on.

I am not aligned to any company but I read these forums with mild bemusement. Do any of you guys honestly believe the regionals are making millions....?

If you want to take up the fight, take it up with QANTAS or another major. Having a go at Tasair about ICUS is bull shiber.

glekichi 27th Jun 2010 03:04


There's no comeraderie where I fly, there's no updating the pilot behind you on the same route about the weather conditions etc. This is reflective of the industry on a whole, you are on your own, GA is something you survive alot of the time due to good luck rather than good management. Rather than be a good experience it is something you bear until you make it into an airline and are covered by an EBA.
Well, Owen, looks like you are working for the wrong operator then. This is one area that Tasair isn't actually too bad. The pilots, bar a few wankers (the kind that also wont have a beer with you after work, not that you'd invite them), are a pretty supportive group. Quite normal to stay back to help push planes away etc. and have a yarn about the day. I didn't leave on the best of terms with management, but the workmates I had there are something that I do miss.


On the case of Government intervention in Tasair, other operators would not get the same 'protections' 'subsidies' and 'bailouts.' They are tired of trying to make a quid on an unfair playing field. These other operators provide just as good and better services, they run on the smell of an oily rag. If the market was allowed to operate as it should there'd be less operators charging more realistic prices, then perhaps investment in better aircraft and better pay for pilots.
Once again, whilst far (really far!) from perfect, I think you'll find Tasair is still paying staff better than any other operator in Tasmania (unless, heaven forbid, the award is being enforced) and certainly is above average for GA.

It is the competition that has been under charging and under paying for years and contributed to the current situation! That and a certain personality that drives hundreds of thousands of students' dollars away every year.

They could do a lot better by listening more to the inputs of non-management staff though. Lots of wasted money elsewhere. It's pretty demoralising to know the work you're doing is making an absolute killing for the company, yet they still struggle because its being pissed away!!

A37575 27th Jun 2010 14:14

I am not sure about Australian regulation but by UK regs the ICUS pilot must make all operational decisions during the trip. If the pilot in command is forced to disagree on any one of those operational decisions by the ICUS pilot, then the ICUS logging is cancelled and the ICUS pilot reverts to logging dual or copilot time.

Judging from the significant amount of ICUS time I have witnessed in some pilot's log books in Australia they must either have been flying superbly without a single remark or comment by the supervising captain - or they are logging cheating hours.

Centaurus 27th Jun 2010 14:20


The people you meet with any integrity over twenty years you will count on the fingers of one hand. This may not have been the case before 1989, don't know.
Not quite sure what you are getting at. What is the significance of Year 1989.
Certainly 9/11 was a significant event in world events - but 1989?

Angle of Attack 27th Jun 2010 16:10

9/11 was not significant in the world, only in the western world, do not get too self important about this event please. It was a pin prick in the global scale lets get real people.

Centaurus 28th Jun 2010 13:16


9/11 was not significant in the world, only in the western world, do not get too self important about this event please. It was a pin prick in the global scale lets get real people.
A bloody painful pin prick to the 3000 plus who lost their lives. A pin prick that caused the US and its Allies to try get stuck into the baddies (fanatics) in Afghanistan and a pin prick that cause huge security measures to affect air travellers world wide. Anyway, the question is still unanswered. What is significant about 1989 in Australia?

aussieflyboy 28th Jun 2010 13:27

warning further thread drift:

meaning no disrespect to the tragic events but in Australia shouldn't we be calling it 11/9 rather then 9/11...

aaaaannnnd back to my hole :ugh:

Tee Emm 4th Jul 2010 05:17


Don't we all know that we are glorified bus drivers???
Agreed. Airbus.:8

Arnold E 4th Jul 2010 10:29

"In 1989, the then Prime Minister, Bob Hawke infamously put down all pilots and with Peter (Not quite) Ables caused massive stress to a number of good people"

If memory serves me correctly, didnt all the pilots resign en mass? Wouldn't that mean that people were re-employed on merit?
I dont know, but, maybe you had no merit :confused::confused: Dont know :sad::sad::sad::sad:

Owen Stanley 6th Jul 2010 12:07

Here we go...............

(couldn't help it :ugh::ugh::ugh:)

LeadSled 6th Jul 2010 14:10

A37575,
The UK P1(U/S), Command under supervision is ICAO compliant, as is the equivalent in US, most of EU, SIN, NZ, PNG, most places I have had occasion to look.

Australia's ICUS is not compliant with Annex 1 --- except that a difference notice filed with ICAO makes it "compliant".

By exemption,(???) CASA "allows" a number of major airline's pilots to log time in compliance with ICAO Annex 1.


What is really behind all the anguish on this thread (whether people know it or not) is that Australia makes it very difficult for a young pilot to log Pilot In Command Under Supervision.

Further, because all too many pilots who have achieved the holy grail of "enough command time" are so myopic that they are unable/don't want to distinguish (in UK terms) between P1 (with the P1 name in the log book) and P1 U/S, ( with the actual P1's name Command column in the P1 U/S log book).

Some how or other, ICUS is equated with some kind of cheating, "bogus" time, maybe we should call it BAICUS, log it as "Command (B)".

All the screeching about the propriety of someone paying for what must be obtained, (somehow or other) is really an offshoot of the fact that AU does not comply with the spirit and intent of ICAO Annex 1.

If Australia actually complied with Annex 1, without a difference, most of the problem would go away.

As a side issue, CASA is getting it right royally screwed up about ICUS time on an air route, or ICUS time after endorsement, and what applies in the case of "group" endorsements ---- there have been some really creative, some quite bizarre re-interpretation of what are really long standing rules ---- ???

Tootle pip!!

fanning 8th Jul 2010 00:41


I think you'll find Tasair is still paying staff better than any other operator in Tasmania (unless, heaven forbid, the award is being enforced) and certainly is above average for GA.
RFDS ... Rotorlift ... Airlines of Tas :confused:

Why would ex-staff be seeking entitlements? unless someone is just stirring the pot... :=

glekichi 8th Jul 2010 03:45

Sorry, yes, I forgot about the RFDS base in Launy. I was more thinking of piston charter operators. Rotorlift - not sure if that's relevant. Airlines of Tas - you're joking right?

The Green Goblin 28th Jan 2011 03:18

I noticed the operator is now back on AFAP offering 20 hours ICUS "free" with an instrument rating.

Perhaps they listened :ok:

Tee Emm 28th Jan 2011 12:24


noticed the operator is now back on AFAP offering 20 hours ICUS "free" with an instrument rating.
Buyer beware. Nothing in aviation is free. The catch must be in the scheduled min hours to complete training for the instrument rating. Or in the cost per hour with an instructor?

TSIO540 28th Jan 2011 21:47

The ICUS is done on a freight run... having trainees fly the route does take a little longer and therefore cost a little more, but I think you'll find that the deal is more about making sure that Tasair can have punters rolling through the door to keep their grade one's busy as bored instructors are hard to retain.


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