Paying for ICUS
 

I noticed on the AFAP website a particular company is offering Pilots to pay for ICUS in their PA31s :ugh:

$120 per hour day or night. They should be paying Pilots $120 per hour to fly a PA31 for them.

The race to the bottom continues.

Don't people understand that you get the required minima to fly a particular aircraft with an operator when you do your line training/ICUS? A good operator will spend 50 hours doing ICUS with the right Pilot for the job to get them up to insurance/contractual minima.

If this continues and is accepted by our industry, the right seat in an airliner will be soon for sale with a price tag on 500 hours P2 time in a 737 to get a crack at the middle eastern carriers.

Let me guess.......from the right seat?:hmm:

Could not agree more GG.

Glad to see the AFAP refusing to support pilot prostitution. :=:=:=

No, that's right, they are so weak they even assist by advertising it.

Shame, shame shame. :=:=:=:=

That's disgusting.... Who is the organisation

YOU, the member ARE the organisation:sad::sad::sad:

...
 

Think you will find that there are already A320/737 operators around doing it, just look in the back of flight international...

I WAS in the throws of joining the union for precisely this reason....the greater good for all in the long term.

On reading that advertisement I threw my application form in the bin, what an utter disgrace AFAP......shame. What hope do we have?:ugh:

It isn't at all possible to make a new, more powerful union, is it?

How I see it is, that most pilots see AFAP doing nothing, therefore won't join, so the union is not going to get any stronger. Is it time for a new union?

-Puts flame shield up-

For a union/association/affiliation/league to work people have to stick together, just reading these thread alone that's never going to happen. While ever you have feeder mobs crewing with cadets/trainees and paying dearly for it, the practice is going all the way to the top boys, accept it.

One of the Night

Please explain to me ( because obviously I am stupid ) how can you change things by not being a member???:ugh::ugh:

welcome to the future of aviation.

JetAOK said It is a chuckle, mummy and daddy usually paid for their training too :8

I ask the same question of ALL of you, how can you change things by NOT being a union member.

Or are you, indeed, happy with your lot???

Arnold,

Perhaps I am the stupid one, though I am under no delusions that my actions will change anything.

At this point in time, I simply lack the confidence in such an organisation to achieve anything either. Granted I know very little about the AFAP, and will continue to delve deeper....though this advertisement set alarm bells ringing. I sincerely hope upon further investigation my opinion is altered.

However as you said, the organisation is a reflection/representation of it's members, this advertisement does not reflect my values one iota.

Well then, join and change it.
Lobby and make a difference.

DO SOMETHING

Is there a possibility that people are actually going to pay money to possibly go and spot greenpeace for the Japanese?

Sad, sad world

MakeItHappenCaptain

Ka????

Yeah Ok, went back to the top of the thread and re-read, see what you mean.

Hey GG I agree with your sentiment re paying for experience and jobs, but I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick here.

I happen to know that this IS one of the employers that does give whatever ICUS is needed to the right applicants. (I was once one of them)

Those who do instrument ratings there also get as much ICUS as they need (okay, within reason) free of charge.

They don't just send you with anyone. The ones giving the ICUS all have formal training with an external ATO for approval to fly/supervise from the right.

Instead, I would be blaming all the employers out there that want pilots with 10/50/100 on type, forcing young pilots that want the job to get experience elsewhere, and the same even experienced pilots that just happen to not have time on that particular type. This company is not one of them!

Personally though, I don't see why people pay for ICUS to get a job with those outfits that refuse invest in their staff's training themselves. It doesn't say much for the company. I guess this is what you were trying to say, GG?

Then why are they advertising ICUS for $150/hr?

You don't need to be anyone special to supervise someone during ICUS. **** I used to supervise people all the time, and I'm no one special, nor did I ever have any 'formal' training for flying from the right seat.

morno

morno,

Exactly right. You don't need any special approval, but the company has elected to go above and beyond that. I think its a bloody good idea.

They are advertising it because there are a lot of people out there that want/need the experience to work for other operators, or just want to get current.

I didn't intend this to be a union bashing exercise after all, I am an AFAP member.

I do think it is a little ordinary that 'our' union is receiving money from a company that is exploiting Pilots trying to get a leg up on their peers, hoping to get the job that will get them ahead. The problem is those with the deepest pockets are not necessarily those that are most suited to the job.

As you mentioned Glekichi, I started this thread to point out that operators should be investing in their people. You take a guy, put him through your company, and pay him a decent wage as he increases in experience and value to your company. When he leaves he has all the boxes ticked and heads off to somewhere for further career progression (Hopefully after you have had at least 2/3 years out of him -0-ATPL).

Instead GA is full of guys moving from one company to the next without any loyalty, companies are taking guys from other operators instead of training them themselves and so on.

Dog eat dog I suppose, kind of sad really.

Perhaps the GA companies should get together and make agreements with each other as feeders to each other after x amount of time is served and a slot opens up.

Alligator to Westwing, Slingair to Hardy, King Leos to Chartair etc etc. Maybe then guys will stick around a little while longer with a carrot being dangled and the multi engine operators know the product they are getting. Perhaps then the multi engine operators should feed particular regionals etc etc.


Dreaming but it would be nice!

Is it a crock of **** if it's a single pilot operation, therefore they don't actually need another pilot in the aeroplane, and by having an ICUS pilot they have reduced payload for passengers/cargo?

Pay the money, log the hours in the command column instead because you are "hiring the aircraft" at that rate. Bugger off. Cheap hours on type! :E


don't take the above too seriously..................................

Yes it's still a crock Aerocat, as they are training you to fly their aircraft to make them money...

An on the AFAP front, you all love to bag them and call them paper tigers and useless. So just for clarification, how many of you guys complaining are members? Strength and Saftey in numbers, plus 500k if I lose an eye, or get diabetes etc.

j3 AFAP member since 04.

I think paying for hrs is wrong but having said that aviation today is a different beast to many years ago when it was flourishing. I personally wouldn't pay for such hrs but I'm not in the early learning stages of gaining experience where such things is developing into what could be the norm if you want to get ahead of the pack.
Don't forget everyone in some ways we have ALL paid for flying from day one in one way or another. Every lesson you took you paid for so effectively you paid for yr job along the way. Self funded type endo's, ICUS time self funded (such as thread topic), security clearances self funded, user pays in virtually everything with aviation, ldg fees, en route fees, English language tests, there all nails in the coffin of general aviation. Slowly but surely the 'flying for fun' & the building of hrs towards a job will be only available to the few very wealthy & as for learning to fly from off the street to that shinny jet job (the traditional way once)? Well will one day pass into aviation folk law, sad but I believe inevitable:{

Obviously all personal opinions & no more:-)

Aviation is like a school yard, the tough stand on top of the heap!

Wmk2

did anyone mention Eagle Jet etc etc.

Seems to be becoming common practice these days- I don't condone it however it is just a fact of the way things are moving..

Did try it for a couple of years back in the early eighties, think I was a member about four years. I had a complaint about $6,000 missing from a years wages, they said they couldn't help and my next years subs were due. Seems at the time all they were interested in were Captains wages and conditions, GA didn't get a look in. Has anything changed?

Maybe things haven't changed, but you sure as hell are not going to change things by being on the outside, looking in.

Maybe the TWU is the go for GA.

IMHO, the AFAP is virtually worthless...

Great in concept, but tainted by the fact that the battles they need to fight exceed the capabilities of those charged with fighting them! I've seen this on a few occasions now - and the predictability of an amatuer approach from AFAP is quite frustrating, both as a pilot and a pilot manager.

I do acknowledge the "can't change things from outside looking in" argument, but my primary focus is not to ever be driving AFAP - I'd rather pay fees to people who are interested in doing that well and in so doing, get out there and kick some goals for us.

Nevertheless, paying for ICUS is a crap scheme but unfortunately, it will never stop. I bet that many companies would love to buy a new photocopier, get the office staff to pay for a training course on it, and then have them pay again to use the copier in the service of said company!

I like the concept of "feeding" pilots from one company through another, though - at least that way each company has a known quantity, the pilots coming through a career path for a while and the stability that comes with being able to predict and plan (to an extent) pilot attrition. Ideally, a flying school to charter company to regional airline concept would be great.

To be honest I reckon it would develop a very competitive and professionally mature aviator in comparison with their QANTAS cadet / military counterparts - after all, there is no substitute for getting out there on the job and learning through experience, with the right balance of mentoring from those pilot managers at each level along the way.

Be very very careful about joining the TWU, read the fine print carefully. When I worked as a lawyer I represented several people who wanted to cancel their membership. The TWU had some nasty provisions about that and were ruthless in pursuing them.

As to paying for ICUS, I have done it twice. The first was at the conclusion of my instrument rating when I realised that I only had a rating to learn. I bought some hours to consolidate the training and to get a feel for "real life" IFR. I still consider it the best money I have spent on training.

The second occasion was just prior to the first instrument rating renewal when I needed to get back to speed on flying a twin. Again, I consider it money well spent.

The rest of my entries under ICUS in the logbook were getting time on type prior to being turned loose on an unsuspecting public by my employer.

.

I agree and this comment definilty aplies. I am in GA and have been for many years. I was once a member of the AFAP but like so many others I felt a little alone being a member there. Year after year the same feeling. My opinion is the TWU really doesnt care for the GA pilot either, but at least I get that warm fuzzy feeling being a part of a powerful organisation that can achieve. Sorry the AFAP for the GA grunt cannot.

Paying for ICUS sucks. It cost's enough money and heart ache to get any where in this industry without these vultures circling. It would be marvellous if each company could be a feeder for each other, but are they that organised to do such a thing? Each company is striving to survive week to week. So the big ICUS carrot is here and here to stay. Unfortunatley :*

I wonder how the legalities and cost structure of such a scheme work? Are you still classified as an employee of a company if you are PAYING to work there, or are you a Customer? Are you covered by things like workers comp and public liability etc? Is it even legal to charge people to work for you?

Very valid point Plovett about the TWU and membership.

Nothing like getting that valuable ICUS experience with somebody that
knows only a smidgin more about the aeroplane than you do!!!!!!

Why would you pay for ICUS though plovett to try and get current for an instrument renewal?

I always found spending a couple of hundred bucks on a simulator and shooting NDBs and ILSs far more valuable. Even though I have never had to pay for a renewal yet (the employer has always paid the bill) I would not want to fail one and let them down if they are investing the time and money in me, so a couple of hundred bucks out of my pocket for the sim was very good value and showed I was keen.

The ATO also is not testing your straight and level performance, they want to see you shooting approaches in a high traffic CTA type environment.

The spirit of ICUS was/is for an employer to get an employee checked to line for the type of operation he/she was hired to do. It was/is not intended for someone to pay for hours to meet minimum hours on type or for an employer to ICUS someone 500 hours to meet command requirements.

IMO you also can't log ICUS in the right seat, it has to be in the left with a check captain or chief pilot who is approved to occupy that seat. I bet CASA has the same viewpoint.

GG

The AFAP in the old days were not beyond the bully boy approach. The majority of our pilots were members and a couple of our boys did all the donkey work in negotiating award details with the company. AFAP were a rubber stamp basically, besides being the agent to whom the judge talked to formalise arrangements. A disagreement came about (forget what) and our reps were told (threatened??) that they, the AFAP, would get Norm Gallagher (remember him?) and his muscle to pay a visit and show us the error of our ways. The result was all AFAP members bailed and we set up our own union.

Actually this is not the CASA viewpoint, have a read of CASACom 01/09:

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...91117/0901.pdf

It's wrong but it's here.
 

The whole concept of using the light aircraft industry as merely a training ground for airline pilots is very, very wrong, and this "prostituting' will continue as long as that practice continues.
The light aircraft industry supplies vital air services to about 80% of the country that have very few options and little infrastructure. It is an important part of our trnasport system that should have a sound commercial base, long term personel and long term planning. At the moment it has neither of these.
Like the aboriginal problems this is an inconvenient truth that has been swept under the carpet for too long.
In a so called civilised society people in the the centre of the country have to rely on an organisation that is supported by bequests an public fund raising to fly them to medical facilities as there are no medical facilities near where they live.
Why are the bequests and public fund raising necessary?
Because our Governments and regulators live on the coast and don't care. They don't care about the light aircraft industry either. They don't use outback medical services or light aircraft services. Our governments are relying on cheap services to the outback, from "missionaries" etc who do things at low rates and expect support from public fund raising, bequests etc, and a flood of wannabie airline piolts who will also work cheap.
So our very important light aircraft industry is impoverished and staffed by lots of transient airline wannabies who will pay for ICUS etc and are not interested in making things better.Many won't be here long. They will quit if they don't get an airline job soon.
Many who read this are adding to the problem, but I cannot see a solution while the present system continues.

Too late! In the UK, at least, the process is now:

1. pay for your training at an "integrated school", at twice the price of a "pay per lesson" school,
2. pay extra for special "two crew airline" training,
3. pay extra for type rating on jet, with a "guaranteed" job,
4. "garanteed job" turns out to be unpaid line training, with
5. a bit of casual "pay by the hour" over Summer (when the airline is busy), then
6. you're dropped like a hot rock over winter, and
7. never called again, as you have to make way for the next income opportunity .. er.. "cadet". :mad:

I cant believe what is posted is true, because only the truely stupid would put themselves in this position. If you truely want to fly that much, get a fair dinkum job, buy yourself and aircraft and fly at a fraction of that cost, and have a lot more fun to-boot.