If people want to pay for ICUS then let them, but what I think is pretty poor form is when the ICUS seats are given to the 'fly-in paying customers' in preference to those who have spent many more thousands of dollars doing the instrument rating/endorsement training at the same company with the expectation/promise of ICUS following the endorsement.

My company doesn't offer ICUS, mainly because our ops (99% pax CHTR) aren't suited to it.

I offer the following questions as Devil's Advocate:

If I have a product to sell, and someone wants to buy it, why not?

No pilots are out of work because of it (I need to put a pilot on that run anyway)... why not?

If I have the capacity and systems in place to give someone ICUS... why not?

They win, we were flying there anyway, YES we make some additional revenue from the aircraft so we win too. Why not?

If that additional revenue means another bill paid and my pilots stay in work... why not?

I am not sure I can see a legitimate reason for your beef. People everywhere, in every industry, do the equivalent of paying for ICUS; it's called doing the hard yards to get ahead.

There also seems to be an insinuation that any company offering ICUS is automatically dodgy and must accordingly have low standards of training, questionable ethics and dubious parentage.

This isn't a perfect world, it's a dog-eat-dog world, and crying on PPRuNe aint going to change that.

Some of you just seem upset that little Johnny has paid the money and got ahead :{

If the ICUS is worth paying for (ie: you aren't just a seat warmer/refueller/cargo loader for a day) then word will get around. It can be good training.

If the ICUS is crap... if you don't actually get pole time... if you don't learn anything, word will get around then too.

In a previous life, I DID give 10-12 hours ICUS once as a favour on a survey tour in a C206. I will say this:

If you DO enter into an agreement to do ICUS with someone, at an agreed rate, do the honourable thing and PAY THE BILL :=

You know who you are.

Horatio,
Have to agree with you after a few years of being around this bloody industry.
If the ICUS is properly given, then why wouldn't you do it? Everybody wins.
The good old days are long gone (though to be honest I can't remember them being particulary good at all!!).
There is no real union protection for GA pilots, there is certainly no real career progression most part of GA and to top it off, we don't live in Wonderland!!!
Do what you've gotta do to get ahead in this segment of the industry and do it quick. Ethics, morals, doing the "right thing" (ie: waiting your turn) by your compatriots in and around GA is pointless. Good guys get nowhere fast.
Take the hours when you can and how you can because.......GA is NOT worth it. It's just a place to spend a few years, have a few beers and enjoy yourself but eventually financial and family reality will force you to move on to much more enjoyable, well paid and better things.
Not a particulary nice tone to my post but.....grounded well within Realityland. Sad really!:ugh:

There's nothing wrong with ICUS.

Here's a thought from the other side of the fence, pay the Pilot flying ICUS $120/hr and advertise the safety benefit of two crew to your passengers.

You'll not only be doing a good service by your passengers, but you'll be helping a young Pilot in the industry.

An operator who could not afford to do that could just take the kid on without paying him if he has the extra capacity. Why not?

Is it just my computer, or has the ad been removed from the afap jobs page?

I Can't believe you people
 

The argument for "Charging for ICUS" as some humanitarian greater good for GA, is like saying that you're making a humanitarian contribution to Haiti by only shagging Haitian hookers. :ugh:

It's amazing that people are quick to trot out the old line about how it's you the members who collectively are the AFAP, thereby absolving the organisation from any wrong doing or responsibility and placing the onus on the collective group.

Yet when it comes to abhorrent practices in GA, it's every man for himself. It's all about the individual and the perception of getting ahead and F:mad:ck everyone else.:ugh:

With the way that behavioural science based Airline interviews are going, I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future candidates were requested to Cite examples of how they have made their work-place / industry a better place for the generations following behind them. :hmm:

Arnellis
 

It's not your computer. Refer to LC's post #59 :ok:

Cheers,

DIVOSH!

If If If.
 

Well Done.
A victory for the working class. An advertisement has been taken off a website. The bourgeious has capitulated. Net result. Nil. Another successful lose-lose for those that pepper their sentences with with "what should happen is..", and"we should all..." and then do exactly nothing. This is called stirring and is,in fact, a great Australian pastime.The fact of the matter is that we are all out there in the market place alone, competing for the scraps and morsels available and no amount of pipe dreaming on PPRUNE about better conditions and days gone by are going to magically improve the lot of GA. Its is up to you, the individual, to make your choices and get ahead and fight for your terms and conditions yourself because, as sure as death and taxes, your aviation brothers are not going to do it for you despite all the hot air here to the contrary. This may involve joining a union or it may involve some firm words with your employer or it may just be acting smart and finding leverage where you can. Or it may, shock,horror involve paying somebody to gain some hours because it will benefit you and your family.The market is the great dictator here and hopefully, with all this hiring ramping up, the boot will be back not on our, but your, foot. If you choose to do your bit and help out those you are in a position to help, directly and materially with words of advice or a word to the boss or a finger point in the right direction then I salute you. I have been helped like this and have helped others and its got me work and Ive got others work and it actually works hell of a lot more that sitting around carping about higher wages and longer lunch hours. I sit back and wait for the roasting....

Credit where credit is due :ok:.
Time to retrieve a piece of paper from the waste basket.

You are supporting the companies out there that should be paying for endorsements and ongoing Pilot training.

An inconvenient teuth.
 

Next time you are talking to a wannabe airline pilot make sure he reads this thread to see what existing pilots think of the situation. He can then balance that against what the flying schools and ICUS sellers tell him.
I remember when companies paid for endoesements, but that has certainly changed. I also talked to a man who "purchased" 300 hours of 737 time from an asian airline, and was dumped when the 300 hours was up.He was looking for a job flying pistons in the outback.
Times have changed.

So how much experience did the guy have, that did your ICUS?

You're also paying them money on-top of what they are charging their clients. This enables them to undercut competitors and skimp of Pilot training for guys that they employ. This promotes a if you can't beat 'em join 'em mentality in the industry. Look at GA in NZ. Do you want Australia to have desperadoes working for up to a year without pay?

Do you think Lames will pay per hour for the privilege of working on a type to get their hours up for a new licence?

Anyway rant over for now :yuk:

A la Interair with the Westpac beach patrols.. Would have been a terrific first twin job if there wasn't 100 rich parented, spoilt ****s out there willing to pay for an endorsement and ICUS.

Rumour has it that TASAIR had a heap of people apply and they were more than willing to take their cash for the endorsement, but when it came to the actual flying all of a sudden they didn't have enough work...

Makes my blood f*cking boil. As someone said the race to the bottom is on, and the rich kids are leading the charge.

Re the Pay for ICUS debate that once raged.....

I hear your concerns and they are fair and reasonable concerns, however there are a few points that we should all consider.

Virgin Blue Pilots have to pay for their 73 endorsements and they pay off the debt gradually.

Also to fly a Chieftain, you require 50 command or ICUS hours to hire or fly one in command and at an operating cost of around $800+ per hour, that is quite a costly exercise to try and get those hours up if you are paying for them.

In addition, some of us who want to gain or consolidate some valuable IFR and/ or night IFR experience or currency and we have an excellent opportunity to do it at a reasonable rate, by doing the night IFR ICUS.

$120 per hour for night IFR ICUS experience in a Chieftain compared to around $500 for IFR training or flying in a Seminole and what would you choose.

Also, TASAIR, who operate from Tasmania offering the $120 ICUS is at least half the rate of the Tasfast rate who operate out of Moorabbin.

The other point I wish to make is that by carrying the pilot conducting the ICUS means that the payload may be reduced, thus reducing the return they may be making on the cargo run anyway.

I am only speaking for myself and find it a great way to enhance my experience base and flying in a challenging but safe situation.

Nobody's disputing the value of ICUS, we're banging our heads against the wall with people paying for it.

There's more than a few operators around who do ICUS for FREE. In fact you actually get PAID to do ICUS. You start working for the company and immediately receive a salary, when there's a bit of movement in the company, they pay for your endorsement on the next largest aircraft in the fleet and send you off flying with a more experienced pilot until you are competent.

If you want to get real fancy some of them even work for CAR 217 organisations where the pilot sitting in the right hand seat has been checked as a Supervisory Captain rather than someone who just happened to do the endorsement three months before you and still learning themselves.

Once upon a time airline pilot's didn't pay for type endorsements either. In fact there's still some companies where this is the case. Think about it.

This should not happen but PILOTs allow it to (Jetstar also does this with Tiger requiring you have the endorsement before starting). There are a number of operators who do not require this and pay for your training.

This is not required by law and is a flexible insurance requirement, there are ways around it if you know how.

Why? If you work for said companies they should have a training program to familiarise pilots with the operation.

Neither, I would get a job that pays me to fly, and I did. If you actually put in some effort the work is out there.

So they are undercutting each other? The pilot is still out of pocket.

Most times the ICUS pilot is off-loaded before freight, showing what you are worth to the operator.

As has been said before paying an operator for your training reduces your value. They will just replace you with the next person willing to do it, the cost to the operator to replace you is zero, they even make money off new starts.

The big question with paying for ICUS, is after you have taken the money of the willing pilot and done X number of hours would you let him or her fly the aeroplane on their own with your charter client?

I have seen city based flying schools set up charter companies in the outback using hired aeroplanes and casual pilots and selling ICUS . They can undercut established companies, fleece pilots and pull out when they have destroyed the industry in that area. They have virtually nothing invested.
They take money from pilots to train for jobs that do not exist, sell them ICUS with sinilar low timers supervising, and generally drag the industry down.
When it dies they just send the hired aeroplanes back or move to another area.
I cannot respect these people.

Yeah Bushy, but Tasair, despite all its faults, is certainly not one of those companies, and they do put newly employed pilots through ICUS without charge - as it should be!
What ****s me off about it is that none of the extra cash is passed on to the supervising pilot!