Cloud Seeding Cessna 310 Moorabbin 1980's
 

Had a discussion recently about cloud seeding operations in th 1980's using a Cessna 310 from Moorabbin. Does anyone have any more information of that operation such as how long did it go for, what were the various pilot's names, where did they do the seeding, etc

i remember a pressurised navajo in late 70,s , BSF i think .

Not directly related to your question Centaurus but of historical note, the CSIRO owned and used a 310 (VH-REK) back in the late 1950s for cloud seeding.

Later spent nearly seven years in New Guinea being flown by a Catholic Priest, the late Father JGA Flynn, before being finally relocated at Bankstown.

Was extensively rebuilt in 1994 and acquired by HARS in late 1996. Believe it was the first GA aircraft, as opposed to airline and military, to have approval for IMC operations in Oz.

There used to be a C320 (Skyknight) VH-DRK doing survey work in those times, unsure of the cloud seeding though.
It was in a sorry state for a long time in the GAM graveyard at Essendon.
Not sure what happened to it, but it definitely didn't fly out.
As a matter of interest, what was the difference between the 310 and 320,
apart from 10 in case those of you wish to state the bleedin' obvious?

I believe the 320 is basically a turbocharged 310. There also appears to be a difference in the side windows.
Don't think there's much more than that.
Probably more fuel in the 320 but don't quote me.

Hi Centaurus

There were 3 C310 rainmakers that I know of; VH-AER, VH-REK and VH-REL.

REK and REL taken at the end of their delivery flight on 5 Dec 57:

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vau...EL-05DEC57.jpg

At Tamworth with rainmaker Hudson VH-EWR:

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vau...REK-REL-02.jpg

VH-AER is preserved by the Moorabbin Air Museum.
VH-REK is preserved by HARS.

C320 VH-DRK was last reported in Denis Beahan's yard at Roma in 2003.

Another lesser-known rainmaker is Beagle 206 VH-UNL which is preserved at the Queensland Air Museum.

Rgds

Par Avion from Hobart had a PA31P VH-BSF based at MB for that contract. I think the resident pilot was Lance Scott.

REL did a contract in Hobart about '64 or '65. Mike Hunt was the pilot. Remember seeing it on lake Pedder beach around that time.

Dog One

Say again pilot's name.

Rgds

Slight Drift.....

I remember one of the 310's doing a 'wheels up' on the grass at Mascot.
Can't remember the date.

It was planned, in that the pilot did fly around and use up fuel, then made the approach, stopped both engines, and used the starter motor to align both of the 2 bladed props in the horizontal position - thus minimising the engine damage.

SMH of the day gave praise all round and reported the airframe damage to be minimal.
Sounds like a job 'well done'..??:ok::ok:

p.s. Tch tch.... Mr Frisbie....:}

Cessna 310 cloud seeding 1980's
 

Centaurus:

Not sure about the 1980's but in 1966 and 1967 I did a lot of flying on cloud seeding in Cessna 310's, VH-TTM, VH-AER and VH-RLY. It was done for the CSIRO and we operated mainly from Dubbo, meeting the weather fronts out at the South Australian / New South Wales border and if they were suitable, then we would seed them until the front left the New South Wales Pacific coast. If weather came in from either the North or South we would do the same thing.

It was good for the IF training and Ice handling.

Tmb

Wheels up at Mascot C310
 

EX FSO GRIFFO:

I do not know who to or when this happened but I do recall people in my younger days talking about such an incident.

My own incident at Mascot was in November 1965 and had to land with a magnetometer "Bomb" trailing behind and below the aircraft. It closed the airport for a time.

Tmb

Bill Surh of Peninsular Air Services owned VH-REL in the late sixties and early seventies at Moorabbin. 'REL' was indeed an ex cloud-seeder and he also, later,(1970?) had a contract with the CSIRO for seeding, using a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO an ex Conellan machine. Very little use was made of it in the cloud-seeding mode. I cannot remember why. The 310B was a totally different animal to later 310s' especially the 'Q' onwards, but great fun to fly, very light in roll. I saw 'REL' in Hamilton in the early eighties while visiting the Ansett Museum. The pilots for the CSIRO contract were Bill himself and John Fleming. Sadly both were subsequently killed in aircraft accidents. 'CLO' was painted two-tone blue with the CSIRO badge on the rear fuselage and fin. After the contract ended the aircraft was painted in a yellow scheme and ended its days on the Cairns fire dump.

By George, you may well be correct. C310 VH-REL I believe was derelict in a paddock west of Branxholme Vic (sth of HML) in late '80's having been owned by a now former local identity, Tom Francis (previous owner of PA24-400 PYM among others). Don't know of circumstances now.

Ahhh eighties GA in EN/MB. Such memories.

the C320 was a larger cabin than the 310.....I think. Certainly different windows. I remember the green DRK lurking around EN.

And another green machine. A navajo from out west, WBL I think. Was it SOW?

Skybird back then was kind of a central point for a lot of EN GA and certainly turboprops and jets. Anyone remember N133LE commonly known as nibble? CIII I think it was.

I think from memory that the reason that CLO wasn't used much was because it was either being fixed or flying to and from being fixed.

Bit of a "cursed" aircraft.

VH-REL was my first twin endorsement and it's interesting to compare how we use to fly them. I was reading on another thread about a member looking for a Navajo checklist. We just started the engines, used "TEMPFSCH" and took off. I hired a light twin last month, when home on leave, and the checklist was like something out of the Space Shuttle. In regards to the ferry of 'REL' and 'REK' from the States I think Gordon Howe was one of the pilots.

C320 was a turbo charged version of the C310. Then Cessna made all the series turbo charged which made the C320 redundant and it went out of production.
There were differences in the windows and also in the position of the rear bulkhead which changed the available cabin volume a little, but usually the changes were available in either model.
The external dimensions (span, length etc) were the same for each model.
I fly both at present and even though they are identical in external size, it is easy to be fooled when looking at the cabin. One has a ski tube but has the bulkhead further forward, one has a higher cabin roof over the pilot station, one has a two piece windscreen etc. One has a takeoff weight of 5670lb and the other is 5300 lb, but the useful load is about the same.
What I like about the C320 is that it has 285hp engines and is very quiet. It flies to about 25,000 feet and burns 32 gph while the C310 has 325 hp RAMs and can go higher (30,000 feet?) burning 36 gph but is so noisy it drives me mad after a few hours, even with a noise-cancelling headset.
Both are really fun to fly, and can be operated out of 3000 feet gravel strips safely, with good single engine performance if required. If you don't worry about engine failure, they can fly out of 2000 feet strips, although I usually use flap then, and pull them into the air early to avoid prop damage from rocks.
And if you have flown either, you already know the cabin heaters will have stopped working long before you reach 25,000 feet.
Parts are hard to get and expensive. We have not had the spars done, but I think all the ones in Aus have been modified?
If you get a chance to fly one, go for it. I guarantee you will love it.

Civil Flying Services had a contact for cloud seeding in 1969 over Victoria using Beech Barons. They also had a tip tanked Bonanza at Roma.

Cloud Seeding 1980's
 

Seem to remember a pilot by the name of Ray Samson? from Cobar NSW doing cloud seeding back in the 70's in a 310 FYW. Anybody else that can confirm this

Correct re the Baron.

CFJ was one and there was one other, but cant recall the rego. CFJ was I recall, BIB at one stage when Bib Stillwell owned Civil. He later put that rego on his Lear.

Peter Bini did a fair bit of cloud seeding in the Baron out Nhill way for a few seasons. Barry ?? was another regular then... He later went to Civils in WA as did the Baron. And I think it was a bit earlier than '69. Maybe 67??

Yes, those days at MB were great.. nothing like today (sadly)

CFJ, a Beech 55, was the aeroplane Civil used to do instrument rating training in. I remember Jock, Peter, Ian and Russ were there in Sept 1969.

At that time there was another Baron away in western Victoria doing cloud seeding.

I noticed I did circuits at MB at night in Sept using flares. We had to call the flight off after 30 minutes as the flares were being blown out by the south-westerly.

I don't know if CFJ did any cloud seeding although it was well equipped for flight in icing conditions.

I believe my Baron, VH-CFA was also involved in cloud seeding operations, I think based out of Horsham. Someone told me this once but cannot confirm it??

BSB

BSB... I think you may be correct. Have a look at the log books around the late '60's' to see if there is any mention of the mod to put the gear on/off, at the wing tips. May not be sign on the a/c any more?? I was around Civil at that time and sure there was one other than CFJ.

That was the other Baron.
CFJ was a B95-B55 (260hp) and CFA was a B95-C55 (285hp).

Spirax and 601,

When I purchased her the log books were "missing" but could be found for cash. We started with fresh logbooks so I don't have any of her history.
I met a guy once who flew her in WA in the early days and also seem to recall a conversation with someone about her time at Horsham. Any further info that you could enlighten me with would be appreciated, just to know some of the things she has done. With over 10,000 hours in the air she must have had some wonderful adventures.

BSB

BSB

MB was a strange dark and foreboding place where we learnt to control a Frasca before getting into a Baron. I did not have anything to do with CFA as I believe it was away cloud seeding. I was VFR S/E Commercial Pilot, flying a Baron and cloud seeding was way out of my league.

CFJ was used for Civil's instrument training. Had this all singing all dancing HSI :cool: After flying C150, C182 and C205s, this was the bees knees.

One memorable incident happened one cold night at CFS. There was a line of Musketeers? on the apron. A pilot was going to do some night circuits and was checking the fuel by dipping his hand into the fuel tank to feel the fuel.

As the night was cold and humid, the fuel did not evaporate so he did not feel the coolness on his hand as the fuel evaporated. He then lit a match to visually check the fuel:eek:

Of course the fuel on his hand caught fire and he shook it to put it out only to ignite the fuel in the tank. No explosion, just this 3" round column of flame about 8" high. All he had to do was put the cap back on.

There was pandemonium in the office. The tower was notified to sent the fire service.

The hangar doors were closed. To get the extinguishers one had to run to the back of the office, into the hanger, run to the front of the hanger where the extinguishers were kept and repeat the reverse journey.

The rest is history. No planes were damaged, but lessons were learnt.

Checked my logbook and as a trainee cloud seeding officer I flew in CFJ Beech B55 flown by Neate out of Adelaide, CFR Beech C55 flown by Borthwick out of Horsham and RLY Cessna 310 flown by Hill out of Horsham in 1968. A great experience for a newbie SPL with about 3 hours at the time. Not to mention duck shooting from a Beaver flown by Mustachis south of Horsham on fine days not suitable for cloud seeding!

BSB

I don't know if it's relevant but I found the following reference in an article written for the AHSA Journal by Barry Tate:

The article is illustrated with photos of VH-CFG but unfortunately the other Baron is not identified.

Rgds

Ah, the memories are flooding back after looking at this thread. I did some cloud seeding with Maslings 67-68 in 310 WRG and 320 FJW which had belonged to Fletcher Jones of clothing fame. Had a very pleasant couple of weeks flying FJW out of Hobart as a backup to the East West Twotter. After Maslings I flew for Civil (Moorabbin) mainly on cloud-seeding and the aircraft we used were CFB, CFR and CFS, all C55 Barons and CFJ which as someone mentioned was a B55 with all the bells and whistles. I operated it out of Adelaide in the latter half of 1968 and with all that gear and the small engines it didn't take too much ice to send you towards terra-firma. CFS was the only one fitted with radar but that didn't stop one of the guys having a nasty encounter with a hail-storm one day out near Eildon. Lots of damage.
I flew out of Horsham for six months in 1969 initially with CFS then CFB. CFR was operating out of Mt Gambier at the same time mainly with Russ Thompson and Doug Krause. I don't remember seeing CFA used for cloud-seeding in Victoria but it may have after I left in early 70 as well as in WA. CFB seems to spend most of its days sitting at Murwillumbah lately.
C310B TTM was also mentioned on this thread; I never flew it while I was with Maslings but later flew it for the would-be third airline Jetair out of Eagle Farm as well as the also mentioned Twin Bonanza CLO which was a bucket of bolts way back then (1970).
I'm surprised Fantome hasn't appeared here yet as he spent a lot of his youth playing with clouds and aeroplanes. Another great guy involved in the cloud-seeding with Maslings was Lane Morrow, a Yankee import. Unfortunately he passed away in early 2004.
My first encounter with cloud-seeding was about 1964-5 in Wagga when the CSIRO were operating REK and REL from there with the legendary Chris Braund being one of the pilots.

The 310s that Maslings of Cootamundra had cloud-seeding included -

VH-AER, VH-REK, VH-WRG, VH-TTM, VH-GBC (subsequently privately owned, broke up in a Cb, Broken Hill to Mildura), VH-RLY (destroyed in Coota hangar fire) and C320 VH-FJW, ( crashed fatally Warwick Farm, NSW. Originally owned by Fletcher Jones, Warnambool, hence FJW.)

The bases for these ops (all designated drought relief) were Wagga, Cobar, Dubbo and Horsham. For a brief period in 1968 AER was contracted to the Department of the Interior in Canberra for seeding over the Cotter catchment due to the severity of the drought affecting Canberra's water supply. The officer from the CSIRO who ran this job was Arthur Tapp, a Second World War nav in Bomber Command and the nav for the trans-Pacific ferry of REK and REL. (Arto was also as funny as a hat full of bums.)

The Beagle 206 VH-UNL was certainly contracted by Western Air Navigation, Eagle Farm, to the Queensland Government in 1969-70 for drought relief. Dubbed by some 'Winston Spencer Beagle', she was a bit of a dog when loaded to the hilt but on the other hand, on the controls, beautifully harmonised. A superb pilot's aeroplane, with outstanding outlook from behind the huge clear canopy/windscreen. Configured as an eight place, the rear two 'hunchback midget' seats featured a fairly low roof line.

Cloud Seeding Pilots
 

WTFIGO:

You mentioned Chris Braund, I think one of the others was GM.

Tmb

Chris, George, both joined the great celestial holding pattern a good while ago. Characters of a kind now in short supply. Both cut teeth in the RAF in Europe and North Africa. Both perpetual boys at heart. Many Chris anecdotes in 'Laughter in the Sky', put out by Jim Thorne. George ones not so accessible.

Do recall him sneaking up behind a 150 over Katoomba and imitating machine gun on the RT and then barrel rolling his 310 in front of the 150.

An ex QF, George Rickey, did a brief stint with Masoes. Also a character.
Like to know where he is. Similarly Ray Smythe, ex TAA, flew VH-MIN on the BMR survey contract. Native of Kempsey. (Knew how to put it way, prior to joining AA).

Memories of Cloud Seeding
 

Fantome:

Talking about George I remember a time that two rain making Cessna 310's did a fly past/over the Anzac Parade at Dubbo on Anzac day.

Not sure how it looked from the ground but from the air, it was spectactular, line astern, I was flying the rear C310.

Tmb

For the record.
VH-REK is not just preserved by HARS,it is operational and has recently completed the full Cessna aging aircraft inspection.
Wunwing

George Rickey & Ray Smythe
 

Any word about on either's whereabouts? Heard recently from Ron Roberts (ex QF 747 skipper who started on the Cats) that George blotted his copy book seriously on a 707 command check at Avalon with checkie Eric ? in right seat when George lent across on downwind and said 'Dangle the Dunlops daddio.' In addition to that I recall George recounting during his brief time at Maslings '67 or '68 that he'd made a few unwise remarks to his check captain at turn in time in the pub at Geelong, probably that same day. Ray came from Kempsey and was based at Goulburn with Maslings on their Reg 203 services with C402 same era. (Also had a nasty run in with the management)

I remember Ray samson from Cobar involved in cloud seeding.Later in the 80's,Ray operated a C310 from his Cobar property on charter.Ray later died suddenly from a bee sting.Apparently he was allergic to bees.

I have heard that there is film footage of some of Civils ops regarding cloud seeding and incendiary dropping for controlled burns from CSIRO archives from the 60's or 70's. Another bit of film that may be interesting is an add for the Ford Mustang involving a Bonanza around the same time, may have been Civil also.

Cloud Seeding Cessna 310 Moorabbin 1980's
 

C310, VH-WRG eventually came to grief - fell out of the sky in bits after losing an argument with a thunderstorm in 1974. Investigation put it down to pilot inexperience on type and lack of recency.

CFS Barons
 

Gents, I've only just discovered this posting!

I flew for CFS in WA from 1966 to 1970. Looking at my log book, it shows cloud-seeding operations out of Perth in 1967 in 95-B55 VH-CFJ and the following year out of Meekatharra (a real punishment posting that one) in 95-C55 CFB.

CFB (formerly BIB) certainly had all the bells and whistles; the only downside I recall was that as it had generators (not alternators) it was possible to flatten the batteries with the engines idling and everything turned on - as I found out to my embarrassment once.

Fris B. Fairing - the firebombing ops were conducted in 1969, operating mainly out of Manjimup. The aircraft used were 95-C55 CFG (as you said) and 95-B55 CFO. Barry Tate and I were often involved in this (another punishment posting!)!

I am aware of a pilot who used to cloud seed over Wagga in 1968 in a C310