710m TODA - Enough for a Baron 58?
 

Am looking at a nice little property just out of sydney thats for sale. Lo and behold, it comes with a nice little 710m grass runway. All of it is useable as there are NO obstacles at either end.

Is this long enough to operate a Baron out of there (300hp) up to Max weight. I have the flight manual for the 285 hp model and it indicates only 1500ft or around 460m for ground roll (sea level nil wind ISA)

My question is how much is needed for an average pilot?

CASA used to issue P-charts for light GA aircraft which took into account many factors including, but not limited to, old aircraft and the abilities of an 'average' pilot.
Their factor was 15% over the POH figures although these days they don't make these charts anymore.

If 15% is good enough for CASA then I guess it's good enough for everyone else!

sounds tight. I don't like taking a 310 or baron thats less than 900m. Plus is the field at sea level, and how many ISA days to you get in Sydney?, density height will have a large factor on safely operating out of a shortish strip.

Also depends of course on what your payload intends to be in and out of there. Just you and min fuel for a 20min flight, probably no worries. Add a few pax into the equation also, your mates won't understand when you start saying you can't take 5 for a joyflight as the runway isn't long enough, it's too hot or whatever.

Finally, how do you determine an average pilot. What is your proficiency on the aircraft. How often do you fly it, your time on type, total time. For a rough idea of how well you can do it, next time you go into a 1000m strip land and try and pull it up by the 700m mark.

Just a few points to ponder. Hope it all works out.:ok:

900M is the figure I would use as a minimum at MTOW, especially on a non paved runway. I would recommend getting a grader in for a day, it'll be cheaper than if you run off the end! That way you won't have to worry, unless it's 40C...;)

PS: You would get the Baron in OK, but you may not get it out again!:eek:

??

Where aeroplanes are concerned, getting out is generally a bigger issue than getting in - in my experience. :E

Dr :8

Getting in has been my issue lately - but then, I've been married for about 7 years now.... :{

Yeah, get your grader out and give it another 300 meters with a turning circle at the end. Its ok to bend it a bit to get it to fit. The surface is the important thing - a bit of gravel on the centre 5 meters does wonders.

And, why not a couple of 100mm reo concrete pads under the props and tires where you park ?

You going to paint the cones black on one side and yellow on the other ? :)

Is it a B58 or E55. The 55 was approved for takeoff with 10 or 15 degrees of flap. Cant remember the figure but I remember it being the weapon of choice for tighter strips rather than the B58 "Tank". I rekon it may help you out of the strip a little better if you cvan use flaps.

The Dr. saysYou're not wrong and the reciprocal applies:

Where HELICOPTERS are concerned, getting IN is generally a bigger issue than getting out!

True that doc, didn't think before I typed.

I was an average pilot flying them many a moon ago and from memory, 700m was generally ok for RPT at MTOW nil wind on the B58 (285hp). May have been less, but can't remember. :ugh:

If the good book says it's good to go, then it must be ;)

The E55 was much better because the POH had performance for the first bit of flap. :ok:

Enjoy your flight Guptar :)

Healy

Did he say it was an E55?? no, so stick to what he asked :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Good point Gulf_dweller, couldn't agree more.

get a Retard vehicle....... no problem then on 260HP:ok:

The Dr has done the Ambo strip with average loads and its shorter.....albeit harder and dry.....

The secret is find somehere else and practice with the right weights and conditions.

If the approach and departure are good, this helps. Just be very sure first....and ask the neighbours if they mind you pulling the fence down!

or buy one of these..................

Thanks for all the replys.

Just wondering how much it would cost to pave the strip.

Lengthening is out of the question as it one end has a deep gorge with a river at the bottom and the other end is bounded by a public road. Another property just down the road could fit a 900m strip however.

The hardest part will be convincing the mrs that we really do NEED our own plane. The same as wee need that flash car and kick arse home theatre.

Sure hope she doesnt say nyet.

Bythewy, theres heaps of Baron vids on youtube of guys going in and out of 700-800m strips and they seem to have no trouble. One even shows a Citation 2 blasting out of a 2000 ft strip. thats about 800m...must have been very light.

I regularly take the Bonanza in and out of 600 m - it does that comfortably in most conditions.

The POH + 10-15% seems like a good idea for planning purposes.

Dr :8

That wouldn't be the strip just south of the Wilton parachute club, by any chance?

From memory anything under 900m at max weight was tight for departure. I also remember that there was a fairly lengthy period of time between the start of the rotation and when you had a bit of height and speed where I reckon you would have been pretty stuffed if you lost an engine. Mind you, there were always trees at the end of the strips I went into as well as it being hot with **** all wind. Best to talk to someone who is operating one into strips and is still current before having a row with the missus I reckon.

Sealing the strip?

About $55k for base stabilisation + 130k for 50mm bitumen seal or
250k or so for concrete.

Has anyone considered what an engine failure before takeoff would be like? Into the gorge or the public road if not done correctly. Worst case dead at the bottom of the gorge or (minor?) injuries on the road. Although from experience 58 would be the plane to get you out even with 1 engine out after takeoff.

I always found the baron a beast on the takeoff but required a lot of runway to land as she was a slippery little bugger.....

700 will be fine most of the time but on the odd occasion it will scare you.

I used to work out conditions for every aeroplane I flew as a worse case scenario, it it were better on the day I was right to go. 40 Degrees, 5000 PH, 5 knot tail wind with a downslope and see what the figure is. If you were better than that then you were right to go!

Neither a road, nor a gorge are suitable as a clearway/stopway, therefore cannot be included in any calculations. This leaves you with a TODA of 710 Metres, now I don't have the figures handy, but from memory this is not enough to 'legally' depart in a fully loaded Baron!

Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the accelrate/stop, accelerate/go scenarios, which I expect would yield a figure of closer to 1000M.

The question for me would it really HAVE to be a Baron....? If you are struggling to get approval for an aircraft at all, you might struggle to get approval for a Baron. Perhaps something else might be more suitable?

[QUOTE]Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the accelrate/stop, accelerate/go scenarios, which I expect would yield a figure of closer to 1000M. [QUOTE]
Yeah I reckon about 1000m as well.

I don't have B58 numbers but....
 

...I do have D55 figures. Remember the D55 has the big donks but the lightest fuselage, so its performance is better than the B58.

Using "normal" take-off technique:

TODR for a D55 is 678m at ISA+20 and a PH of 4000', level, nil wind.

ASDR for a D55 is 1463m under the same conditions and is still over 1000m at ISA-20 and SL.

This does not mean you can't use the strip - but it means you should probably limit your t/o weights because if the noise stops on one side at >84 knots, you won't be stopping :uhoh:

I assume by what I read above you do not actually have a plane either.

So if you like the property and you do not need the extra couple of seats, there are many other a/c that may be a better option.

I saw a very nice Retard Vehicle -10 for sale in the last Aviation Trader. 4 Adults fuel and gear......no problems!

Even one of those V Tailed things would just make it! Albeit a bit slower..... :E

Jesus wept - Stop way/clear way/accelerate stop/accelerate go/TODR/LDR:ugh:

The thread starter is asking about a potential private operation off a private strip - not running a RPT operation:ugh:

I once watched a 'pilot' barely stop a B58 on 11L at ysbk in light rain - because he was landing too fast - a VERY common practice. Land a Baron at 1.3 Vs for your actual weight and they can be landed very short indeed. When you get very comfortable in the aircraft 1.2 Vs is even better.

Vso (MAUW) in a B58 is 74kts. At typical landing weights its more like 68-70kts. Vref of 84-91kts works well. 100-110 kts + does not.

LDR is from 50' to stopped. TODR is from brakes release to 50'. Ignoring for a moment that these are certification numbers that bare little resemblance to real life neither of those 'points in space' need to be/should be/are required to be over the runway.

What?

Clearway.

Specified Height = 50'.

The thread starter has a TORA/ASDA of 710m. Un-factored TORR for a B58 at MAUW is 425m and about 434m for landing run - ISA MSL of course. He has stated that there are no obstacles in the approach or departure paths.

Call it 440m for both - x 1.60 = 704m.

Anyone going to suggest that factoring by 60% is less than conservative?

The only thing the thread starter needs to search his soul about is whether he can,

1/. REALLY afford the care and feeding of a Baron and,

2/. Is he up to flying the aircraft correctly and precisely.

NOT whether the proposed airstrip is long enough.

The B-58 was not designed for RPT, yet has the charts available, why not consider all options in order to make a valid assessment of the suitability of the strip? But I digress, the original thread starter asked "how much is needed for an average pilot?"

I will stand by my original 900(ish) metres! :E

By the way...
My bolding!:ugh:

So what are you expecting the gorge and river to do?

Guptar
I was just going to sit and watch this one, but like all the above who answered your enquiry, here's my little bit.
Both Baron types would do it privately. Have carried big loads in and out of similar sized strips that have had the figures done on them for RPT margins for Company use. It usually depends on weight. The 55 with the big engines and big flaps would be better but you lose the double doors. (Harder to load a rectangular coffin into !!). As always the devil is in the detail. Now I'm no expert, and some of those who are could maybe do it better, but it would be up to you on the day to decide, (and you'd be the pilot, right?) if that grass was wet from dew or rain and braking would be a problem, you flew accurately to your calculated final approach speed for the weight (as Chimbu said), if there was a crane passing on the road while on short final (have had yacht masts cross extended centrelines on occasions), crosswinds, poor vis., temperatures, and all those other little things to take into account on T.O. and Landing. And some of the strips we went to were only rostered for the more experienced pilots. So the buck stops with you. If you think you can handle it fine, just do your homework from hard data some where, have someone good do a practise one for you first while you ride along watching, then make your decision with what you are comfortable with. Commanders are responsible for any F...ups. That is a point that is harder to get across these days with testing budgets but little ongoing training. (You just have to have discipline in your flying) And just because I have told you this, and something unmentionable happens, I'm not responsible. You're the Captain.

If you want to invite your friends in their 58's who havn't been in before to land on your strip, then you had better tell them all about it in advance, and stress that THEY are the Captain!

(I keep forgetting this is a P.P.sRumour Network) (Now THAT is a Rumour)

Nice post Chuckles :ok:



I know of an Arrow that is operating out of a private strip at 350 metres.

I know of a Skyfox that operates out of 950 ft / 290 metres.

I know of a Gazelle operating at 350 metres.

and a Chieftain @ 800 metres..... that one is a little tight.

Have also seen an RV6 operating at less than 200 meters reliably.

There are so many variables and the biggest one is the nut behind the wheel !

Jaba, I can't believe how much speed that thing has up at the start, looks like it's only a few metres from the fence behind it ! Is that the 125 metre strip we were discussing recently?

If you can't lengthen it then you have to trade off between a high risk Baron or a low risk C206 / Cherokee 6 / Bonanza or even C182 if you want smaller.

For a Baron, you will need a short field technique each and every time, and stay current at it. At some point, rain / turb / Xwind, or high GW and DH, you are going to be very marginal in any Baron and one principle to stick to is: - don't do something that you don't really need to do.

Someone above raised the good point that if you get a Baron in, someone else will try the same with theirs - perhaps not a good idea.

So whats the GPS lat/long ??? We'll put it up on Google Erf and see if it's really Baronable. Question 2 - who/what do you want do fly in and out, and do you need something in IFR category ?

"Speed"!

I have NEVER heard that word used to describe a Savannah!

Trust me XXX - its an optical illusion!

Dr :8

:\ Firstly read your FM or POH. This is what the Insurance Comany, CASA and ATSB WILL go off if you goof up! Secondly, it depends on surface condition, bumps, slope, temp, elevation and WIND. Work out your x/w component thoroughly. I have seen many a fine aircraft go through the bottom fence beause of incorrect wind assessment.

NOW, we USED to put a late model 58 into 614m....very tight. HOWEVER we were flying max hours EVERY day and knew the aircraft extremely well.

If I were you, and if you are low time on type I would use 700/900 as my benchmark. As you got more proficient you will shorten this up considerably. Practise on a long strip and practise short short landings. Honestly mate that 600m strip had me on the edge of the seat on every landing. It must feel like you are going to land well B4 the start of the strip. Good luck with it.

I stand corrected - by the book, for the Baron the TO distances are less than the Landing distances
eg TO 407/640 m LDG 438/761 m

Dr :8

I guess that would make sense!

Not much point being able to takeoff if you can't land back on it!!

??

For many (most?) aircraft the opposite is true!

eg C402B TO: 516/676 m LDG: 236/537 m

Dr :8

Correction
 

I guess that doesn't make sense!

Not much point being able to takeoff if you can't land back on it!!

:ok:

This relates to a Beechcraft Baron how?


No, no, and no. The regs are quite specific. There is no 10 - 15% for the Beechcraft Baron, and it is not a good idea, sorry FDR.

The TODR is the actual POH figure using Declared Density or actual conditions MULTIPLIED by the linear interpolation safety factor.

The LDR is the actual POH figure using Declared Density MULTIPLIED by the linear interpolation safety factor. There is no ATIS so actual conditions will be unavailable.


Take Off

An aeroplane must not take off at a weight in excess of the least of the weights determined in accordance with subparagraphs (a) to (d):
(a) a weight at which the take-off distance required under subsection 6 for the pressure height, temperature, runway slope (if in excess of 1%) and wind component along the runway, is equal to or less than the take-off distance available in the direction of take-off. Approved declared conditions may be used instead of actual pressure height and temperature;
(b) a weight which will permit compliance with the take-off climb requirements specified in subsection 7 taking into account ambient temperature and pressure height. Approved declared temperature and pressure height may be used instead of ambient conditions;
(c) a weight which will permit compliance with the en-route climb requirements specified in subsection 8;
(d) a weight which, allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight and taking into account either the forecast temperature and pressure or approved declared conditions, will permit compliance with the landing distance limitations specified in subsection 10 related to the longest available landing length under conditions of zero wind.

and

Subject to paragraph 6.3, the take-off distance required is the distance to accelerate from a standing start with all engines operating and to achieve take-off safety speed at a height of 50 feet above the take-off surface, multiplied by the following factors:
(a) 1.15 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 2 000 kg or less;
(b) 1.25 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 3 500 kg or greater; or
(c) for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights between 2 000 kg and 3 500 kg, a factor derived by linear interpolation between 1.15 and 1.25 according to the maximum take-off weight of the aeroplane.


LANDING


Except in an emergency, an aeroplane must not land at a weight in excess of the least of the weights determined in accordance with subparagraphs (a) and (b):
(a) a weight at which the landing distance required in accordance with subsection 10 for the pressure height, temperature, runway slope (if in excess of 1%), and wind component along the runway at the time of landing, is equal to or less than the landing distance available in the direction of landing. Approved declared conditions may be used instead of actual pressure height and temperature;
Issue 4: 8 December 2004 Amdt No. 212 -3- SECTION 20.7.4 Issue 4
(b) a weight which will permit compliance with the landing climb requirements specified in subsection 9, taking into account the elevation of the aerodrome of landing instead of actual pressure height and temperature.

AND

Subject to paragraphs 10.3 and 10.4, an aeroplane must not land unless the landing distance available is equal to or greater than the distance required to bring the aeroplane to a complete stop or, in the case of aeroplanes operated on water, to a speed of 3 knots, following an approach to land at a speed not less than 1.3VS maintained to within 50 feet of the landing surface. This distance is to be measured from the point where the aeroplane first reaches a height of 50 feet above the landing surface and must be multiplied by the following factors:
(a) 1.15 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 2 000 kg or less;
(b) 1.43 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 4 500 kg or greater;
(c) for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights between 2 000 kg and 4500 kg, a factor derived by linear interpolation between 1.15 and 1.43 according to the maximum take-off weight of the aeroplane.

I hope this helps as the red wine has kicked in.:ok: