Beating the Rex Bond
 

Anyone with any news on beating the Rex bond, a few have gotten off without paying it, any details, the name of the lawyer who has dealt with the case would be nice. Appartently they are suing for the outstanding bonds and for breach of the agreement, and extra 7-10 grand on top of the bond! A nice way to treat former employees, Singapore style.

Well... it is/was a contract. And it is aviation...
"You can't have your cake and eat it too."

No wonder bonding is de rigueur.

Sometimes pilots are their own worst enemies.

Next you'll be jumping up and down shouting how unfair it is that you have to pay up front for an endorsement for your Jetstar or DJ job.

It's precisely the reason that selfish people like that (you?) that have caused companies to introduce pay up front. :mad:

Rex has invested time and money into you. It is your duty - as you willingly agreed - to see out your return of service or pay up the remainder of the bond - as you had previously agreed.

It's got nothing to do with Singapore style, hamster style or any other style. You've tried to shaft them by scrounging out of an agreement you entered into, and they are trying to get back what is theirs. Fair enough.

For once I am with Rex. And this has nothing to do with the (lack of?) EBA negotiations. :=

Quite right
 

If you don't want to work there, then don't go there in the first place.

Well said C.T.

I don't think many here would be more outspoken about the H.R. skills (or lack thereof) of REX. But mate! Fair's fair. I don't agree that at this or higher levels of aviation that companies are doing themselves a service by requiring already "experienced" pilots to fork out 10's of thousands of dollars for the "privilige" of working for them.

I do agree however, that the bond is an equitable and fair alternative. Take your lumps mate. Do the right thing. :{

Krusty!

Krusty old mate... I HAVE to disagree with you here.
the reason that pilots are paid a TRAINING wage, and LOWER than fair wages over the first three years at REX, is a hngover from the KD/ZL days when there was no bond or upfront payment for the type rating. The way the current REX board has it, they are double-dipping with regards screwing new recruits.
IF the company wants to keep employees..... well we BOTH know the answer to that one!

As for beating the bond.... I would suggest it would be fairly easy! just list the ways in which the COMPANY has not abided by the EBA, and then put it to THEM that THEY were the ones who first broke the agreement, hence all bets are off! and I would bet a penny to a pound, that you could find SOME WAY in which they have broken their end of the bargain.

good luck Penben,

I paid mine and it made me sick to fork out my hard earned to those F#$k'n pricks....

be interesting to find out how the others got out of it, maybe I can get my coin back!!

I agree with the obviously older heads regarding bonds. I think a bond is a gentlemans agreement between employee and employer. It is WRONG to depart before you have done your time. As others have noted it is no wonder that Virgin and Jet Star are making pilots pay for endorsements when this sort of thing happens.
A couple of years back I was bonded for 2 years and was offered a better job about a month into my bond tenure. I could have paid the bond out but I elected to stay as the bond in no way covered the costs of endorsing me and all the other trimmings. I just felt I had a moral obligation to the organisation concerned. I never regretted it and they now pay me handsomely.
I implore the selfish ones to reconsider when thinking of jumping bond, it gives us all a bad name. Remember it is a very small industry and deeds done now will come back to haunt you. Just ask any survivor of the War.

apache

Just like the bond, those that signed the contract knew what the pay deal was. This doesn’t make it right but in this industry Karma has a way of coming around and bighting you on the bum. Either do your time or pay out your bond and use it as a good life lesson.

Bonds rarely hold up in court!

Dr :8

When you first joined REX you knew the deal and signed the bond. It must have seemed worth it at one point... now just pay it.:ugh:

Upfront payment is just wrong :mad:

Goes to show the audactiy of some pilots. I've come across a lot that say "I'm just gonna do it to get ahead so I can get a jet job". I don't know how many I have warned, that going to Rex is only going to make them whinge and whine in 12 months time, about how much they hate it there and want to get out. And so far, I have only come across 1 who hasn't whinged and whined, and is actually still there.

If you go there, do the company (and all future pilots) a favour, STAY THERE! For at least the term of your bond.

I remember seeing a letter written by Rex Management, that basically said "We're not going to pay you more, because you're all just going to go anyway". Now that I think about it, I don't blame them. Anyone that goes there with the attitude I quoted above, deserves to be screwed over. All they're doing is making it worse for those following them.

Compressor Stall, I completely agree with you.

morno

Even if, as the Dr says, bonds rarely hold up in court, you really need a very strong reason to break one. Simply being pissed-off with the company is no excuse - most pilots suffer from this malaise at times. To get out with any shred of honour you would need to take them on for some clear breach of their side of any agreement, and show that you had objected to whatever the breach was, but to no avail. Examples could be illegal rostering, repeated late payment of salary or allowances, failure to provide a safe working environment etc.
Or you could deliberately fail a check ride, or tell the boss what you think of him at the Xmas party (or roger his missus) of course. But when your next potential employer does due diligence, all but the last of these tactics would likely bite you on the bum just as bad as jumping the bond.

A gentlemans agreement is what we had in the good old days, a bond is what we have now due to the lack of gentlemen...:rolleyes:

Pretty typical of attitudes these days. " want all the rights, but you can take the responsibilities and shove 'em up your arse". When will they learn.

You signed the agreement, be man enough or have the morals to live up to it.

I think the general feeling here is that paying for an endo is like paying to get a job. Right or wrong that's the way the world turns, today. But funny you know we ALL have 'paid' to get a job flying, right from the very first day we handed over our first buck to learn to fly!


WMk2

post of the year howard! :D

No body wins in the end....
 

Had a flick through the case provided by leagleagle73 and whilst yes, Matthew Clarke won the appeal and didn't have to pay the bond he lost on costs and ended up having to pay his own.

I'd be curious to know how much more or less than $7500 it cost him in the end......

UTR

Very true UTR. A phyrric, and immoral, victory

BTW - have you got very long arms? I thought you'd be two orders of magnitude closer to your keyboard than you have listed. ;):E

broken bond twice now. yes it is an agreement and both times i have upheld my end and paid it out. good tax deduction too cause it is all work related training.

I believe that the AFAP picked up the tab on this one. I also have it on good authority that the case is NOT over, and REX are spending big $$$$ chasing the $7500, because they, like other airlines, do NOT want a precedent to be set.

There's always one trying to ride the system.

Stallie - you're the first in 4 years to notice (including me - if memory serves I was pissed when dreaming that up)! You must be even more bored than I am reading legal cases!

UTR.

[/thread drift]

Strewth Stallie, thats twice I've seen that word this year.........I think you used it both times.

It is my understanding that if binding is covered by one's AWA/EBA, then it's enforceable. If bonding does not appear in said documents, but is a side contract, then its enforceability is more doubtful.

the bond at this time was not in the rex eba but added later....

so clarke had every right to contest it......and won...

rex would have spent a packet on the QC and others (100k+) seeing on how long it went for....

suck ****e i say.....

maybe if they paid their f/o's / pilots what their worth, they would not have this problem in the first place!!

And of course, the last paragraph in the EBA states "both parties agree that NO further claims will be entered into during the course of this EBA".... or words to that effect.
REX adding this to Mr Clarkes terms of employment constitutes a breach of EBA, therefore I wouldn't think that in this case, the extra clause would be enforceable at all.

The fact that it has SINCE been added to, and approved in the EBA makes it a tad harder.... but NOT impossible.

Seems ppl are all happy to break the bond and not pay it out, but then go and fork out 30K on a jet rating.

beats me

'who_cares' too true about the jet rating costs but I think when one gets to that level of flying that's it, there is not further to go other than perhaps a sideways shift & a couple of years bonding (if that's the case) goes quickly when you believe yr at the end of the line. At the regional level these days it appears to not be a life long career move for most hence if you can get out of the bond legally & move on as in this particular case then some will try.
Mr Clarke won in the eyes of the law, but as we all know sh1t sticks in the aviation business big time & it's like being on an Island, there's nowhere to hide.

WMk2

Are those pay figures correct!?!?
No wonder your all leaving, I made more in GA flying a single! :hmm::ugh:

When breaking a bond, some things you MUST do, for your own future's sake. Give the required notice. On or before final day, go into the boss's office with a cheque for the outstanding amount on the bond. Tell him you will exchange it for a clearance letter which clearly states that you are leaving of your own accord and have discharged the bond. Make sure your final paycheque is in the bank, with any accrued leave paid out, before clearing the cheque.
That way, you have ammunition if they later bag you with a poor reference. If you can prove that one, you could sue if any untrue statement had been made. It is also something to take to interview for when any future employer raises doubts about your integrity because of your short period of service after taking the type endorsement training (if they know their stuff they work all this out from your logbook).
But as others have said here and before - if you do a runner you screw those who would follow you. It happened so often in the past and that is why employers now bond. IMHO this is preferable to making the pilot pay up front for the training, but if we as a breed make a practice of snivelling on bonds every operator will require pre-paid training in future.

One of the responses to a high attrition rate was the Rex cadetship program...I'd be intrigued to see whether any of the Rex cadets honour their 6 year bond given the prospect of possibly remaining on FO wages throughout this entire period. Personally I don't see these guys enduring the full wack of this bond!:ouch:

Bonds
 

State Industrial laws have more protection for workers when a company has a training wage and a bond. It is plain rude and unfair to have an EBA/ Agreement which agrees to this. := Certainly something that a good industrial lawyer points out when knocking up these agreements. It's one or the other, NOT both.

Usually the company walks away, as it is a waste of time and money for both parties. REX, will no doubt have an influx of experienced operators lining up at their doors, to be treated like a fool and paid chickens' feed, with all the good press they get for treating their workers soo well. :ugh:

All the best beating them. :ok:

I know little of REX other than what I glean here. However my impression is that if you jump bond they will hunt you down whatever the legal cost to themselves. In the greater scheme of an aviation business 100 grand or even double that for lawyers and court appearances is nothing. They are fully aware that the 'law' has financially broken more than one individual trying to defend a position - whether morally right or not - and WILL call your bluff. To do anything less would be loss of face. Ask anyone who ever tried to duck out on Singapore Airlines what happens to bond-breakers.

This isn't entirely on topic, but why would anyone in their right mind pack up and move to sydney, to a job that you are bonded to, for 40k per year.

What is the average rent for a house/unit near YSSY? Add in possible loan repayments for your training and you end up eating the same 2 minute noodles that you were eating while bashing around the bush in a C206. No wonder he didn't pay back the bond, he would have been struggling enough just to buy groceries.

Is this what I have to endure when I finally have enough hours up to throw some resume's out there?. I am much better off in my current job, it is easy, I get paid 45k+ plus incentives and do not have to pay for internet/phones, let alone the privilege of getting my job in the first place.

I don't care about earning big bucks, I would be satisfied being able to tell my boss to "stick it, I'm going to fly aeroplanes" - But you have to be able to afford to live.

Apologies for ranting, but I have mates that left school at 16, did a trade and now own houses/BMW's/their own business. They got paid while doing thier training and love their jobs. I am still working in retail 4 years after finishing year 12 and all the money I get goes towards paying for flying training. After I finish training and get a job for a couple of years to get my hours up, I may be able to apply for a job at REX or the like and then proceed to get paid about the same as my mates were when they were 18. They will be 10 years in front of me.

Off to watch the cricket now before the men in white suits come to take me away.....

povopilot

know that feeling..... it gets worse to! :{ wait til the bank sends you a letter "we are very dissapointed you have not kept your promise....) :\

Lester you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Whatever failings people may think the Rex recruitment process may have, one thing you couldn’t fault is the amount of detail provided re bond, pay, basings etc. All this info is provided before you have even been accepted. During my interview they spent 5-10min going through the EBA pay scale and the details of how the bond worked.

Penny, you signed your name on the dotted line, deal with it and don’t crap in the nest of those that follow.

As for cost of living in Sydney (which seems to get a run here regularly), there is no requirement to live there. When I joined, a Sydney base required some level of seniority, i.e. everyone that was in SY had chosen to move there. From my observations, the Sydney crews were generally the unhappiest, so much so that I ended up refusing to pax there and fill in when they were short of crew. Once again, you signed your name on the transfer request form, deal with the reality.

Beating the bond
 

As others have said, beating Rex (or any other employer) in exiting from your legally (or perhaps just ehically) binding contract is neither "clever" nor ethical.

Rex remained unique amongst the established players over the last 5 years, during which "pay to play" became industry standard. They did not follow Impulse, Jetstar or Virgin to that very low ebb.

Like QF mainline, Rex not only PAYS FOR your training but PAYS YOU to do it. It's a good deal.

EVEN QANTAS MAINLINE BONDS PILOTS.

As Dave Incognito pointed out, you knew the bargain when you went in... don't try to weasil out of it now.

When I grew up, a gentleman's word was his bond. Seems that honour is only measured in $50 notes these days :{