Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!
 

From the CASA News....

At Newcastle -
"Between 13 December 2008 and 10 January 2009 there will be a CASA-certified air-ground radio operator to provide pilots with traffic and other information seven days a week. It will be mandatory for pilots to contact the radio operator and all aircraft must carry and use radar transponders."

Good news?

NO 'Clearances' required for transit?
Just call the CAGRO - for traffic and other info.

"Hi Ho,.. Hi Ho,.. Along The Beach We Go"............!!!:p:p

Link here - I hope!
Media release - Newcastle airport operates safely

:ok::ok:

So all the GA planes with young families aboard, but without a transponder, that in the past have been able to transit the coastal lane on weekends will now be forced onto the inland lane where it's not possible to do a safe forced landing .

Great safety improvement!

And where was the NPRM and the consultation for this "first in the world" class G transponder requirement?

And why don't the 10-30 PAX RPT aircraft require TCAS?

Over my dead body! See here

Gee Dick,

"Over my dead body"........

I REALLY don't wanna go THAT far........but, if you insist!!

[SIZE="3"]
ONLY JOKING!!!:E:E:eek::eek:[SIZE="2"]

Maybe they could call this "NEW" system an AFIZ!!!!!:rolleyes:

There has been Cagro for years there for Military movements. Who is supplying the body? Interestingly, due to nothing other than wanting to stream line a document, an airspace combination that was known as 'Willy 1' was abolished. This was an activation of the zone only and allowed for runway and circuit separation. Perhaps people with concerns could enquire as to why this already designed and implemented airspace is not used during this time. If it is a blue shirt playng cagro, it would make complete sense.

It was a blue shirt last year with a radar screen close by to add to safety.

Now from the civilian side (see add in last fridays Australian) and no radar display and no blue shirt.

And why not ATC- a service was given in Baghdad over the Christmas break a number of years ago- why not in Aus.

Coz Dick there is no ATC staff to do it, either blue shirts or civilians.

I thought there were about 300 atc's in the RAAF.

Lets say 20 for Townsville and 50 for Darwin- wouldn't there be at least one available to work even part time at Williamtown?

Dick, there would be around 200 controllers in the RAAF. Maybe - they are hurting as much as AsA at the moment. In my time there was about 30 in Darwin and not sure about Townsville, and they have barely enough to maintain services without releasing one or two for CAGRO duties.

As I have said all along, you can have all of the services you want - as long as you have the people to provide them. Your efforts would be better directed at the training and retention side of ATC rather than service delivery at the moment.

Cheers,

NFR.

You will never get any more controllers if you let CASA get away with fake safety studies that show that ATC is not required for airports as busy as Williamtown. Don't you understand this?

I don't want them to be released to do CAGRO work- I want ATC at 50,000 movement, 1 million PAX airports.

OK, only 30 at Darwin, so where are the other 150 ?

The other 150 are either working, on their well deserved annual leave or deployed.

And Dick, please don't patronise me with "Don't you understand this?". I am fully aware that CASA is a toothless tiger at the moment. Regardless of what CASA deems safe or not, where will you get the controllers from? CASA says we must provide an ATC service. Do we? No, not all the time - TIBA.

The stroke of a pen does not change things. I can write a cheque for a million dollars but that doesn't make the money appear. You say you want this and you want that - fine. But you can't just make controllers appear out of thin air.

Pretty sure the CAGRO will just be the CTR, or have i read it wrong? Would suspect that, if this is the case, then noones forced to fly low through the inland lane.

CAGRO services are also planned for Karratha...

Can't help feel the wheel has just about gone full circle. What's next, full reporting and flight plans for everyone?

... with associated high levels of traffic including some military and GA, and higher risk to operations with complex airspace boundaries, lack of controllers, variable weather and proximity to Sydney, I would very much prefer to be controlled in CTA into and out of Newcastle. On this one I am with Dick...it is a national disgrace akin to third world ops that more and more risk be placed on the aircrew shoulders because AirnonServices and the ADF have failed to strategically plan their human resources and/or pay them appropriately.

I've never had much trouble with the jets/metros at willy, and I'm sure I've asked before, but is it normally controlled with MIL traffic, as the R areas would have to be activated?

Is this CAGRO the same thing they've been trialling at Port Macquarie?

CAGRO Service.....
 

'Roller'....


Yes!! .. All of us I am sure do agree with yr statement -

"THEY"....Failed to plan etc and PAY THEM APPROP!!!!:ok::ok:

When I first started flying (civilian) jets in the regions 22 years ago, there were AFIZs just about everywhere I went. By the sounds of it, they'll all be back by the time I retire. But gee, we saved a heap of money in the meantime with MBZs, didn't we Dick? :ugh::=

Topend, a CAGRO is needed at KTA to keep that "thing" you fly under control!! I want a TCAS, RNP 0.001 and ADS-C put on it ASAP! :}:ok:

Griffo,
Get yer butt up to KTA. They have a CAGRO job for you! In a nice shiny TOWER! :eek: Think of the view! :D

Karratha? Naah. Newcastle is nice, I'd think about that. Coffs would be even better.

CV: You wanna move traffic? You want someone to play by all the rules? Make up your mind. Expressions of interest welcome.

TKS....But....
 

Capn Bloggs,....

Many TKS for the 'vote of confidence', I've SEEN 'The View'....

... I used to drive a 40ft Boat out of Dampier for a previous employer - MKMO - and, as much as that was 'FUN' ...I was a "lot" younger then...as you may well know,
I believe...!

But, ITS POSSIBLE!! That 'view'.... over dem salt lakes ....
(In Dec 1970 'we' had a "White Christmas' @ 'Dampier' - we posed by the salt pile and sent the photos to those in 'cooler climes' .......

When I last flew in/out of there in my 'trusty' 206/210, It was still called 'Dampier'......

But - I DID 'work' it from PH as an FSO, and, in fact, was the FSO on duty at its point of closure.....:(:(:(

Maybe?? Maybe my 'Grandies' need me more?? I dunno!!

But, I DO have a V E R Y N I C E 7.6M 'Walkabout' that I could take up there.....

Where do I/we apply???:ok::ok::ok:

E vs W...
 

G'Day Binos....Merry Christmas!!

I'll cut you a deal...

You got the E coast,

I'll stick to the W..... the fishing's better......:ok::ok::ok:

Newcastle Airport controllers
 

Short item in the news this morning re no controllers at Newcastle airport over Christmas. Any more detail?

Lots more detail in a thread a few down:

http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-av...newcastle.html

If you would like to see more information on how I am attempting to stop this from happening - not just no controllers, but also no radar - see here.

Transponders
 

Anyone care to speculate where the authority to enforce the carriage and operation of transponders in the Deacticvated Willy Airspace will derive from?

It will be Class G airspace, will it not?

I introduced the CAGRO when I was Chairman of CASA in 1998. I actually wrote the original CAGRO paper on my kitchen table because the opposition was so great within CASA.

It was never envisaged for a second that a CAGRO would be used to replace air traffic control at places like Williamtown or Avalon. This is an outrageous distortion of the original Board decision in relation to CAGROs.

Gary , you are on to it. No one would know if the transponder was working anyhow as there is no radar.

What a croc. The people at the OAR at CASA must have come from the Wheat Board.

And CASA wasn't game to introduce the ICAO requirement for mandatory ACAS in 10 to 30 pax aircraft (must never stand up to the powerful) so we have airlines operating into Newcastle which are not so fitted.

Probably be in the Federal Court on Friday afternoon- if anyone wants to come and watch the proceedings send me a message. Also could be looking for a few more expert witnesses.

What would the daily movement rate be at Newcastle,over this period, compared to Broome in the dry season?

Dick Smith said "I actually wrote the original CAGRO paper on my kitchen table because the opposition was so great within CASA."

The opposition from CASA was only because you wanted unqualified volunteers to be able to give traffic and weather information to RPT pilots - something that the pilots and CASA would not have a bar of, and with good reason. And furthermore, CAGRO'S came out of a need to provide these services within an MBZ because of numerous incidents that occured after you disbanded Flight Service e.g. AFIZ. CASA has always supported the CAGRO service and recongnizes that it has an important and cost effective role to play as a transition between unmanned CTAF's and class D towers

Lastly, the CAGRO service at Newcastle is not replacing ATC, it is providing an increased level of saftey for RPT aircraft when there is NO ATC service available.

Crisper, Rubbish, The CAGRO was totally opposed and then changed after I resigned so that only ex AsA or ex ADF employees could make money from them.

It's called self interest- It's what is happening at CASA now re Williamtown.

So Dick , you are not opposed to the CAGRO service itself, only the fact that people want to be paid for providing the service ? :ugh:

I am opposed to a CAGRO service being used when it should be ATC

I have been consistent on this point.

Avalon and Williamtown would meet the FAA class D establishment criteria however after I resigned this criteria has not been used so that airline profits are maximised.

I see AsA advertising for a Unicom at Dubbo.

From the 'Seek' website

SEEK jobs database and employment advice

I know it's not the same as Willy, posted for interest only.

tipsy:eek:

Do you have details for which other airports would meet the criteria?

Gary GNU,
Warning! Speculation only! It'll probably be a CTAF(R), as already mentioned in ERSA.

Dick,
No tower=no income=no profits;
Tower=income=profits.

But you say No tower=profits. Please explain??

They are making it a Temporary Restricted Area (TRA).
Wonderful things, those strokes of a pen.

What it should be is a Class D tower like Launie or Maroochy..... and remove all that B:mad:it R airspace around it!

J:ok:

Fantastic news I have just heard that the defence minister has stepped in and instructed the military to continue to provide the CAGRO with the radar display.

He has also said he will be involved in promptly deciding on a permanent solution.

There will be a good outcome for Newcastle now - he is smart.

I am delighted and could not have expected a better outcome.

Good news - see other thread- the defence minister has stepped in.

Ah Dick, Dick, Dick:ugh::

Why is it that everytime you get on a bandwagon, I immediately experience a very strong compulsion to go and check every one of your assertions to make sure we are in fact comparing "apples with apples"?

Firstly, as crisper has alluded to, the CAGRS at Newcastle is not replacing ATC; it is only being provided outside the operating hours of the RAAF aerodrome control (ADC) service. Previously, the CAGRS was being provided by RAAF personnel outside the hours of the ADC service; now its being provided by "white shirters" instead of "blue shirters". So, what's the difference?:confused:

Secondly, during the RAAF standown period last year it is my understanding that there was NO CAGRS provided at Willytown at all so the airport operated on CTAF(R) procedures only. Surely the provision of a CAGRS this year is an improvement by CASA on what was available at Willytown last year, and all preceding years.:D

Thirdly, Willytown has more risk mitigators in place than either Broome or Ayers Rock Airports to supplement the safe dellivery of CAGRS. And just to make sure we are all not sidetracked by your emotional skewed comparisons, it is interesting to note that in the last year:

- Broome CAGRS has safely handled 5,217 scheduled aircraft movements (on 11 hours coverage per day); while

- Ayers Rock CAGRS has handled 4,374 scheduled movements (on 7 hour coverage per day).

Compare the above figures against the estimated annual 4,488 scheduled aircraft movements that will occur OUTSIDE of RAAF control tower hours at Willytown. It would appear to me that the CAGRS at Newcastle would be quite capable of safely handling this number of scheduled aircraft movements, particularly considering that these movements will be spread over 16 hours of CAGRS coverage per day (longer than Broome or Ayers Rock). It should also be noted that the Broome and Ayers Rock CAGRS units, in addition to their scheduled movements, also process a considerable amount of non-scheduled traffic movements that most likely will not be a feature of the Willytown CAGRS operation due to the 6 per hour cap. So, it is difficult to support your contention that the level of risk to passengers at Willytown would be any worse than the risk to passengers flying into/out of Broome and Ayers Rock.

Finally, with respect to your comment at the beginning of this thread:
Again, Dick, this is more sensationalist bulldust from you that is not represented by the facts. :=If you were to read your NOTAMS carefully, you will note that the coastal route still remains available to VFR flights; in fact a VFR aircraft can even fly directly over the top of Willytown during the standown period if they're so inclined. :ok:

(My father used to tell me that if water drips on stone long enough, eventually it will make an impression. I live in hope)