Airvan
 

Just wondering if those of you who do regular hours in an AIRVAN can tell me how you feel about it as an aircraft for extended periods of flying, such as for aerial photography, flying precise lines?
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks.

G'day, the Airvan is a really easy A/C to fly and its great because they are reasonably new so at least everything works, There are only 2 major problems that I found flying them:
1. There is no rudder trim which means that your right leg gets pretty tired in the climb.They really do require a lot of rudder input from T/O to top of climb.
2. The seats are probably the most uncomfortable for extended ops that I have ever encountered, anything more than 2 hrs and you will feel like you were the main attraction at the Mardi Gras!! Not a good feeling.

The A/C have a door open add on that deflects the airflow which makes them good for photos out of the cabin sliding door,so for photos this is really good.All in all they are a good A/C in my recent experience and its great to see that its Aussie built.

All the best and good luck.:ok:

Flying Tigers
 

Hi Tige', yeah I have heard about the seat issue,,,,,just wondering how REALLY bad they are,,,looking at 4 hours in each session at least.
The photography would be through the belly of the aircraft,,,,do you or anyone know of them being modded with a big hole?

Along with no rudder trim & very hard seats with the lack of lumber adjustment, the cabin ventilation in these machines is probably the worst feature in the Airvan (if it can be called a feature at all!). Extremely poor.

Sorry mate, don't know of anyone that has modified them in that way, they will make a good stable platform for photos and as I said they are very uncomfortable for extended periods, 4 hrs and I can assure you that you will be keen as to get out of that seat.Maybe you could put one of those bobbly taxi driver things on the seat or some thing like that, anything is worth a try.Have Fun.

Centurion and Winged Pussy Kats,
 

Guys,
Really appreciate your feedback, all good and useful stuff.
Cheers.
G

Airvan
 

Have to agree with all the comments about the airvan
it is also rather cramped if you are taller than 5.10 very limited seat adjustment.
Where would you be doing the photography ?

Stormynights
 

Hi mate,
Theoretically, could be doing the work anywhere in Aus, weather dependent ofcourse.
I think the chance of working in humid locations is remote as there would usually be associated cloud, which stuffs up the imagery.
But hot clear temps could be an issue if aircon is no good.
Are there any WELL Airconditioned Airvans around?

Aircon
 

The ones i flew didnt have aircon at all and that was in the top end !!
Not very nice for the pax
I do believe you can get them with aircon
I may be wrong
But as stated before ventilation is rubbish for the pilot

Hot up the front
 

Stormy,,,thanks mate,,,will keep that in mind,,,,everyone in the cabin has to be happy when prolonged hours of concentration in the air are involved.

I used to sit on a cushion, i'm 6'4 and felt like my knees where around my ears, would be good if gippsland made the rails slide back a tad further for the front two seats along with an adjustable backrest and lumbar support. (i really think they should make specialty pilot seats as 6 hours in them a day got a little tedious)

Yeah they have no rudder trim, poor little didums, never worried me, i never even used it in aeroplanes that did have it, and the most venerable of all the singles, the Bonanaza has no rudder trim at all :D Rudder trim is for assy ops in a twin, not for a lazy single engine piston driver, did you whine about rudder trim in your 152? I bet you whinge to mummy about having last years saab too!

They do not like turb too much though and can be a pain flying lines, yeah they are easy to stay on the lines with good control responsiveness BUT at the expense of your punters brekky!

Extended seat tracks for pilot seat is available to provide additional 2 1/2 inches of leg room. This assists with comfort. Airframe mod is required.

Airconditioning is available.

12 inch square camera port is available os approved option. about 20 airvans are in use world wide in photography, scanning and imaging.

Turbo-charged version now available for high alt work where improved heater is more important that A/C

I have sat for up to 16 hours a day on ferry flights and find seats no worse than many others, but I am 5' 7" so fit the anthropomophic profile that actually fits the seat. I also sit on a little thin extra cushion that helps.

Have never found the ventilation for pilot particularly bad especially since the extra overhead cabin duct was installed long ago with the additional 'back of the neck' vent and 2 speed booster fan. maybe some of you guys are flying early SN acft and the boss has not upgraded cabin/cockpit ventilation to current spec. I have not only flown in Nth Aus but also Indonesia, Malaysia, PNG, Timor, India and Central America and this has not been such a big issue as it seems here, but as I say , it has been improved from the earlier ones.

Gorstar, PM me if you have specific questions as I have a fair few hours on this type.

HD

Harley's thoughts
 

Thanks for that, will keep you in mind.
I appreciate everyones input, thanks for taking the time to respond.
Think I may spend some time on the Airvan website too.
Just spent some time on the website,,,does not give much away, mentions nothing about the turbine or optional aircon,,,,I guess they tell you that on the phone.........

The company has a fairly comprehensive DVD. ring them and they will send it to you along with a spec sheet.

Not quite a "turbine" as such Gords, but rather a Turbo charger on the IO540.

Not quite but almost........
 

Wizard and VH-(censored)!!!, thankyou both for your info.
Yeah regarding the turbine, I found another web site which spoke of the turbo fitment,,,also discovered that GA now have the rights to rebirth the Nomad,,,,,,that will be interesting.
Thanks guys.

6 foot 4 and look out!
 

Mr G Goblin? Do you mean Vulnerable or venerable? That’s re;-
“Yeah they have no rudder trim, poor little didums, never worried me, i never even used it in aeroplanes that did have it, and the most venerable of all the singles, the Bonanaza has no rudder trim at all”

I think Greenish Ghoul, the trims were invented for people of stature at the opposite end to your scale. You know that everyone is not 6 foot 4 like you buddy. People like me, of 5 foot 7 do require rudder, aileron trim you know!! So, suggesting, “ did you whine about rudder trim in your 152? I bet you whinge to mummy about having last years saab too!” is pretty selfish. I know a person who drives a van in Qld, and i inquired to the use of trim, and they affirmed the usage of such a device. Wonderful ladies who pierce the skies, are creatures, of small and nurturing stature, thank god, not like your stature sir!!!

Gordsta, don’t be afraid of the trims, and, in regards to the luxury of seats, well he said, “The seats will irritate over more than an hour or so, if prolonged usage did occur“ only his opinion though. I asked him to reply to this particular thread and give some advice. We’ll see.

Good luck mate
kind regards
fS120o

Gordstar,

I have a few hundred hours in the Airvan (so no expert!) and i have also done aerial photo ops. The Airvan is a pretty versatile aircraft for cargo and scenic flights, but i found it a little touchy in turbulence. Also it was mentioned in the thread that there is no rudder trim... I would consider that to be a major hassle if you are using it for Aerial photo ops, as the aircraft really should be trimmed out in all axis to make flying straight and accurate runs easier to achieve.

It is also not a very quick acft, so if you are going to have to ferry it across the state/country to get to jobs, it will be costly in both $$ and time. You do see a few C210's cuising around that have been kitted for aerial photo ops, so maybe that it a better option to look at.

If you do decide on an Airvan tho, my trick for getting comfortable was to stick an ERSA behind my lower back.. For me that seemed to give good support and worked as a good way to free up space in the rather cramped cockpit:ok:

All the best

Venerable i.e 'Heroic In Virtue', a fitting title for such an aeroplane

Size doesn't matter, you should know that buddy :p

Airvan
 

Hey Saucerer, Dan and GG,,,thanks all for your messages.
Our company currently uses a 441 Conquest x-hired from Corp Air, and this works well.
The Airvan idea I think is for a possible second camera, a back up if you like.
The rudder trim issue is indeed important as the quality of our imagery is right up there with worlds best and the client pays accordingly!
Considering its relatively slow cruise speeds, lack of pressurisation, ventilation issues, compromised comfort for the pilot and maybe one or two more issues, I dont see it fitting into our operation very well.
But having said that, you never know.
Neways,,,,really appreciate all your suggestions etc,
Sunny days :)

R.E the airflow issues, i never had a problem with the Gasper fan in the airvan, some of our older fleet where modified with a car fan setup as the original ones had a tendency to burn out after fresh pah-lots failed to turn them off in their after take off checks! The new two speed setup was quite effective for what it was designed for :ok:

Airflow
 

GG,
Thanks mate, seems whatever AIRVAN we end up with,,,the ventilation will be investigated closely.
And yeah,,always good to go thru those checks thoroughly.
Cheers mate. ;)

and roll up a towel and place it at the front of the seat as thigh support which will replace the "thigh roll" which was in the original design

Hey Gordstar,
I thoroughly enjoyed my hours in the Airvan. The auto-land system is amazing! I used to take an extra cushion along for comfort. Yes, the ventilation could use some work. It's nothing compared to the ram air of the 206! I've never done photo opps in one, and can't really remember it being that bad in turbulence. All in all a great, simple, well thought out aircraft. All the best.

Cheers,
Greaser.

Lumbar roll
 

206, thanks for that mate,,,good to hear the positive spin.
Cheers mate.

Hey Gordstar,
I've done quite a bit of time in various aircraft of similar size to the airvan, including a few hundred hours in the airvan itself. I fly a lot of survey, although not photographic and the airvan would be terrible to keep on an accurate line, as in accurate survey tolerances not accurate charter tolerances as it is quite a touchy little beast, most dont seem to fly straight, and as mentioned earlier, there is no rudder trim. Not really an issue for charter but to fly accurate lines as you know, its all about footwork and its no fun to get out of the saddle limping your way to the pub!! Doing photography you prob wont be too low, so ventilation wont be too much of a prob, but they really arent that stable by comparison to other types out there. Although quite a step up, the PAC750 Cresco or 750XL are both very stable, quite fast, efficient machines that can come with a hole in the floor straight from the factory. The very good GPS slaved autopilot would eb handy too. Gippsland should chuck the same autopilot in their planes!!

Sloppy lines
 

Aileron, thanks mate,,,I have been coming to the same conclusion myself, but you have now voiced it about flight lines.
They have to be absolutely schmick with our companies operatioin, and I am just wondering what the back room boys and girls would think of imagery taken out of the van.
I have looked sideways at the Cresco, mmmmmmmmmmmm
Pity it looks so weird!!!!!!
Neways,,,keep the comments coming everyone, much appreciated.
Seasons greetings BTW.

The Cresco is an acquired taste, it grows on ya. They look better with the ag-model air intake under the bottom of the cowl rather than the chin scoop tho I must say.

Long live the Cresco
 

Definately a beautiful machine the Cresco. Far preferable to the slow old square box that is the Airvan:E

Here's a good video of one here

YouTube - Two Men and a Plane

Cresco V. Airvan
 

Thesky, thanks mate, watched the U-toob and it crashed the computer,,,but was interesting up until that moment!

Cresco Beautiful????????


Heloooooo!!!

Squarevan may not be most svelte aircraft in the sky but Whaoaaa Creco/Flitcher/XL be waaaaaaayy not good lookin mate.

have did many an hour in PAC products, and did my little bit to reduce the fleet, and I am amazed that anyone says it is gooder than Airvan, I suppose you gonna tell me that even the seats are better!

Who you work for? PAC??

HD

I thought the new fan-dangled PAC 750XL has Gippsland Aero seats!?

stability
 

So could we be a little more specific about the stability issue
static or dynamic?
lateral?
directional?
longitudinal stick fixed?
longitudinal stick free?
incidence stability?

IMO there are no stability issues what-so-ever......

You just feel every bump with such a large wing, going so slowly with large control surfaces making it easy to over control for the average aileron jockey!

I would still rather be in one than a 206/207 and at last count had around the 400 hour mark in them :ok:

I would also love to see one fitted with a cantilever wing, strutless, retractable and more comfortable seats. There are many 210's in the world due for replacement :D

Though if you have a look at the wing loadings - the airvan's of about 19 lb/sq foot is not all that different to the C206 21 to 23 depending on mauw. I agree that at light weights the comparison is different, but so are the stall speeds - you can't have everything

The XL is a vastly different machine to the original 750. Much lighter in the ailerons among other changes. I do believe it has the Gippsland seats too.

I found the ailerons to be nicely balanced in the PAC 750XL......... but it definitely required attention in the seats........ Just like the Airvan.

Wiz of Auz - ailerons in Flitchers used to be absolutely atrocious, but then the 950's got the end plates and they were improved to be merely abysmal, that's why the stick was about 4 foot long and FU24 pilots had one arm bigger than the other like a crab. the stabilator provided light pitching loads but the rudder pedals might well have been just painted on the back of the firewall for all the use they were.

fast forward to the 21st century....750XL rudder that works, ailerons that are acceptable, but a forward regardless stick force per G gradient that is almost vertical, never mind using the rudder to balance a steep turn, you have both feet on the dash while you pull with both hands. I am looking forward to PAC's next effort with control harmony. I must say that i really appreciated that long stroke oleo gear that would soak up the roughest bumps on crappy strips and give a sweet ride.

As far as seats, i flew fletchers with seats ranging from the old style bench seats to stackable plastic chairs, adapted cessna seats and finally the GA seats in the 750, none of them perfect. If the loader driver was a good bloke you could let him sit in with you, unlike the Pawnee and AgWagon where they had to get in the hopper in the good old days. I am sure that ANY seat would have been considered comfy by those luckless and expendable chaps that the top dressing enterprise essentially depended on. I some time wonder if Dean's bruises ever healed after i had tó 'discipline' him on the way out to the job one morning, at least he didn't fall out the top or bottom of the hopper.

Drifting from the original question a little I suspect.

HD

HD

Control harmony ... geez dave you'll be quoting dutch roll tip ellipses next

Windup
 

Comprimised comfort.? Flying precise lines.?
MMM.
In Adelaide?.:ugh: